Link to Orthodox, Eastern Orthodox, Latin Rite, Greek, Oriental?

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All of these are different right?

I’ve seen a lot on all of these but not much of an explanation of what they are.

Does anyone have a web link as to an explanation of what the differences are? Or if youre brave enough tackle all these explanations for me haha?

I know that the Oriental and Greek broke off due to disagreements on the nature of Christs divinity and Holy Spirit, respectively; but am for the most part clueless beyond this.
 
well, the Catholic Church has rites (example, Latin rite, Byzantine rite,etc.) but these are not divisions because there all part of the same Church, all under Papal Authority and all believe in the same doctrine, the only difference is just minor stuff, but the doctrines and believes are the same.

I do not if all Eastern Orthodox’s Churches believe the same or not though, but i do know there not unified like the Catholic Church.

may the Divine Infant Jesus bless you. (:
 
All of these are different right?

I’ve seen a lot on all of these but not much of an explanation of what they are.

Does anyone have a web link as to an explanation of what the differences are? Or if youre brave enough tackle all these explanations for me haha?

I know that the Oriental and Greek broke off due to disagreements on the nature of Christs divinity and Holy Spirit, respectively; but am for the most part clueless beyond this.
The truth of the matter is when it comes to this discussion, it is almost impossible to find material that is not even a little bit polemical. With that in mind, here is an excellent podcast from Fr. Andrew, an Orthodox priest, where he discusses the difference between Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy. As a Roman Catholic you may get offended by some of his claims, but this is an honest presentation of the Orthodox point of view. The same can be said from the Roman Catholic point of view and an Eastern Orthodox Christian may not agree with their take of the schism. But it is good to listen to both sides and know where each side is coming from.

ancientfaith.com/podcasts/orthodoxyheterodoxy/orthodox_and_roman_catholic_differences
ancientfaith.com/podcasts/orthodoxyheterodoxy/orthodox_and_roman_catholic_differences_-part_2
 
Basically,there was one Church and some heretical groups. Councils were called to combat the heresies. Some didn’t believe it was a true council and stayed in schism.

This is from memory so I might screw this up. My apologies.

So there was a heretic named Nestorius who said no, Christ isn’t really one person, but two persons–one human, one divine. Mary birthed the human person but not the divine person.

The 3rd Council Ephesus said no, you can’t divide the person of Jesus in two like that, and Mary is the Mother of God, because the one person of Christ is fully God and fully man . The Assyrian Church of the East said your Council sucks and continued to schism.

Then some said Christ had only one nature, and convened the Robber Council of Ephesus to say that heresy.

The Church said no so fast. We are gonna have a real council to fix this, called Chalcedon.

The Oriental and Coptic Orthodox don’t accept Chalcedon.

600 years later, there was a debate about how the Holy Spirit proceeds. And the role of the Bishop of Rome. The Eastern Bishops pretty much agreed with the Catholics at the Council of Florence, but the Eastern Laity mutinied.
 
I do not if all Eastern Orthodox’s Churches believe the same or not though, but i do know there not unified like the Catholic Church.
The Orthodox Church is unified, unless you are thinking about the Eastern Orthodox and the Oriental Orthodox. But they are really two different Communion of Churches, much like the Roman Catholic Church and the Old Catholic Church. Though they are both Apostolic Churches and once were in communion with one another, they have been in schism from one another for 1500 years. Though surprisingly the faith is pretty similar. The disagreement lies in Chalcedon, regarding the 2 natures of Christ. The Eastern Orthodox (and Roman Catholics) accept Chalcedon that says Christ has two natures, human and divine. The Oriental Orthodox has a similar belief yet laid out differently, that Christ has one nature though that one nature is both completely human and completely divine. The schism that ensued also caused a lot of bad blood between the Churches and they have been trying to sort those things out, because the Fathers of one side have condemned Fathers from the other, so even today when they have pretty much patched up their theological differences, there is still a lot to sort out before full communion is restored.
 
600 years later, there was a debate about how the Holy Spirit proceeds. And the role of the Bishop of Rome. The Eastern Bishops pretty much agreed with the Catholics at the Council of Florence, but the Eastern Laity mutinied.
The Greek bishops at Florence were under 30 in number, and really only represented the Christians residing in and around Constantinople. Most of the bishops in the East did not attend or have delegates present, and some delegations, like the delegation sent by the Georgian Catholicos left the council without signing. In the aftermath of the council, a party of bishops who resisted the union spring up around the two Greeks who did not sign at the council (Mark the Metropolitan of Ephesus being the most well-known). It is therefore not entirely true to say that the bishops supported the measure and the laity alone resisted union, because many bishops outside of the empire’s territory never signed the council, and even of those within the territory of the empire, some were part of the anti-union party. What is true is that the policy of the Emperor and of the Patriarch of Constantinople was pro-union until the fall if Constantinople, but it is not true to say that the anti-union resistance was some sort of laity led mutiny.
 
Orthodoxy comprises several distinct groups, not just the two specified by Con.

The “Eastern Orthodox” are a group with similar beliefs, similar rules, and the same core liturgical praxis, united in faith, but not united in one earthly body. The Eastern Orthodox use two rites, Byzantine and Roman, with the Roman used only in a few parishes of the Russian and Antiochian churches. Several nominally Eastern Orthodox churches are not in communion with the rest; a few are in communion with some but not all of the others in their communion. Amongst them are several distinct subsets - Old Ritualists, the Ukrainian Kyiv Patriarchate - who are out of communion with the rest, but who are in almost all other ways identical.

The “Oriental Orthodox” are those churches in communion with the Pope of Alexandria. Most are Miaphysites - holding that Christ has two natures so tightly united that it’s hard to tell that they aren’t a third, separate nature.

The Old Believers are an odd mixture - those with priests and bishops are essentially Russian Orthodox, but rejecting the Nikonian reforms and those clergy who accepted them, tho some have come back into the Russian Orthodox Church as Old Ritualists. Other Old Believers are to Russian Orthodoxy as Protestants are to Catholics - Rejecting the system of Ordination, and often the sacraments, over ritualistic issues, then turning into a distinct theology.

The Independent Orthodox are vagante groups - many have only the vaguest ties to Either Catholic or other Orthodox churches. Most are tiny parishes with a bishop per parish, and often an auxiliary bishop or two, and a few priests, and a up to a few dozen parishioners. The Rest of Orthodoxy rejects them as non-orthodox. They directly parrallel the “Independent Catholics” in both the nature of parishes and their role to their parent churches. In the case of the Independent Orthodox, most such churches are of western-derived apostolic lineage, but Eastern Orthodox base praxis, often using Russian, Ruthenian, or Ukrainian liturgical texts.

The Assyrians broke away over the Nestorian controversy, but do not actually hold to Nestorianism. They are in limited pastoral communion with the Chaldean Catholics - that is, they permit the faithful of either to attend either for the common good.

The Jacobites - or Syrian Orthodox - are part of the Oriental Orthodox Communion, but it’s not always apparent.

The term Greek Catholic is usually used for churches in Union with Rome, but it’s also used in North America for some Russian Orthodox (OCA) parishes, and the OCA itself used to be the “Russian Orthodox Greek Catholic Church in America” (1924-1970), and in some out of the way parishes, the signage still hasn’t changed. Including some in Alaska.

The SSJK (Society of St. Joseph Kuntsephat) is an excommunicated group of Ukrainian Catholic clergy who rejected delatinization. They are affiliated with the SSPX, loosely, and use the term Greek Catholic as well.

Byzantine Catholic is used by both the Catholic Ruthenian Church and the vagante “Byzantine Catholic Church, Inc., Independent Jurisdiction” - the latter looks to be down to one or two parishes now, and at one point was at least 6.

“Latin Rite” has been used both to identify the Rite of Rome, and to identify the continued use of the 1962 missal, including in SSPX parishes, SSPV parishes, and some others. The SSPX are disobedient but still technically Catholic; the SSPV are heretics and excommunicated. It also technically applies to the Western Rite Orthodox use of the Russian and Antiochian Orthodox Churches in an academic sense, but they generally refer to that solely by “Western Rite” - and all such Orthodox parishes and/or liturgies are done under the auspices of Byzantine Rite hierarchs. Certain Western European Orthodox Churches were established by Russian Orthodox bishops, but are now “Independent Orthodox”, such as the French Orthodox Church, using the Latin-Rite “Western Rite” liturgy. Note also that Latin Rite has occasionally been used to describe Anglican liturgies done in latin according to the Sarum Missal.

One particular oddball group is the Celtic Orthodox Church - a couple parishes, using a restoration of the Celtic Rite liturgy from the Stowe missal, of Syrian Orthodox (Jacobite) Origin, but no longer in communion with them, and formerly in communion with the Romanian Orthodox. They are, however, in communion with some other Western Rite Orthodox Churches that are not in the Eastern Orthodox nor Oriental Orthodox Churches. Many of their clergy left and formed the British Orthodox Church, which is under the Omophor of the Coptic Patriarchate, and thus is once again in communion with the Syrian Orthodox…

There’s a reason “Orthodox” is often a dubious term… every christian church using the Nicene Creed claims to be both “One, Holy, Catholic and Orthodox” (perhaps not capitalized)… so many groups not in union with Rome, Constantinople, Moscow, nor Alexandria use one or the other, sometimes both, in their names.
 
The Orthodox Church is unified, unless you are thinking about the Eastern Orthodox and the Oriental Orthodox. But they are really two different Communion of Churches, much like the Roman Catholic Church and the Old Catholic Church. Though they are both Apostolic Churches and once were in communion with one another, they have been in schism from one another for 1500 years. Though surprisingly the faith is pretty similar. The disagreement lies in Chalcedon, regarding the 2 natures of Christ. The Eastern Orthodox (and Roman Catholics) accept Chalcedon that says Christ has two natures, human and divine. The Oriental Orthodox has a similar belief yet laid out differently, that Christ has one nature though that one nature is both completely human and completely divine. The schism that ensued also caused a lot of bad blood between the Churches and they have been trying to sort those things out, because the Fathers of one side have condemned Fathers from the other, so even today when they have pretty much patched up their theological differences, there is still a lot to sort out before full communion is restored.
Thanks for that succinct explanation, I’ve never really spent time researching the Oriental Orthodox.
 
The “Oriental Orthodox” are those churches in communion with the Pope of Alexandria. Most are Miaphysites - holding that Christ has two natures so tightly united that it’s hard to tell that they aren’t a third, separate nature.
“a third, separate nature”? Absolutely not. That is not what we believe. We believe as St. Cyril taught, in “one (mia, not mono) nature of the Word of God incarnate”. If we won’t accept two separate natures, we won’t accept some mythical ‘third, separate nature’, either.
The Jacobites - or Syrian Orthodox - are part of the Oriental Orthodox Communion, but it’s not always apparent.
How is it “not always apparent”? :confused:
 
All of these are different right?

I’ve seen a lot on all of these but not much of an explanation of what they are.

Does anyone have a web link as to an explanation of what the differences are? Or if youre brave enough tackle all these explanations for me haha?

I know that the Oriental and Greek broke off due to disagreements on the nature of Christs divinity and Holy Spirit, respectively; but am for the most part clueless beyond this.
cnewa.org/default.aspx?ID=123&pagetypeID=9&sitecode=HQ&pageno=1
 
The Jacobites - or Syrian Orthodox - are part of the Oriental Orthodox Communion, but it’s not always apparent.

… of Syrian Orthodox (Jacobite) Origin,
The use of the term “Jacobite” for the Syriac Orthodox (and in English it IS officially SYRIAC Orthodox and has been for some time now) is a rather pejorative term which some, myself included, find offensive. Yes, it was used in the past by the RCC (i.e Latin Church and those under its thrall) and some Protestants to denote “monophysites” but the fallacy of “mono” (as opposed to “mia”) has since been debunked so, while use of the term might be appropriate in reference to a historical discussion, it really is not appropriate in a discussion of current affairs.
How is it “not always apparent”? :confused:
Yeah, I’d like to see the answer to that one too. 😉
 
The “Oriental Orthodox” are those churches in communion with the Pope of Alexandria. Most are Miaphysites - holding that Christ has two natures so tightly united that it’s hard to tell that they aren’t a third, separate nature.
“…it is also said that in Christ dwelt all the fullness of the Godhead bodily; but we understand that he became flesh, not just as he is said to dwell in the saints, but we define that that tabernacling in him was according to equality. But being made one in nature, and not converted into flesh, he made his indwelling in such a way, as we may say that the soul of man does in his own body.” - Council of Ephesus, Session I, The Epistle of St Cyril of Alexandria to Nestorius

“Wherefore, we say that the two natures were united, from which there is the one and only Son and Lord, Jesus Christ, as we accept in our thoughts; but after the union, since the distinction into two is done away with, we believe that there is one nature of the Son, as one, however, one who became man and was made flesh. But if being God the Word he is said to be incarnate and to be made man, let the suspicion of a change be cast somewhere far away, for he has remained what he was, and let the entirely unconfused union be confessed on our part.” - St Cyril of Alexandria, Letter 40:14

Hermias: But if we say that the Nature of the Son is One, even though He be conceived of as Incarnate, all need is there to confess that confusion and commixture take place the nature of man being lost as it were within Him. For what is the nature of man unto the excellency of Godhead?
Cyril: In highest degree, my friend, is he an idle talker who says that confusion and commixture have place, if one Nature of the Son Incarnate and made man, is confessed by us: for one will not be able to make proof thereof by needful and true deductions. But if they set their own. will as a law to us, they devised a counsel which they cannot establish, for we must give heed, not to them but to the God-inspired Scripture… - St Cyril of Alexandria, That Christ is One
 
Orthodoxy comprises several distinct groups, not just the two specified by Con.
Well, there are only those two main communion of Churches. The other vagnate groups you speak about are as much Orthodox are as sedevacantists, PNCC, Chinese Patriotic Catholic Association, Old Catholics, etc. So there really isn’t several distinct groups, there’s two groups, the Eastern Orthodox and the Oriental Orthodox. The others are schismatic, non-canonical groups and thus non-Orthodox regardless of how faithful and strict their adherence is to Orthodox beliefs (similar to the sedevacantists).
 
Well, there are only those two main communion of Churches. The other vagnate groups you speak about are as much Orthodox are as sedevacantists, PNCC, Chinese Patriotic Catholic Association, Old Catholics, etc. So there really isn’t several distinct groups, there’s two groups, the Eastern Orthodox and the Oriental Orthodox. The others are schismatic, non-canonical groups and thus non-Orthodox regardless of how faithful and strict their adherence is to Orthodox beliefs (similar to the sedevacantists).
Ok, which groups are not in schism?
 
Well, there are only those two main communion of Churches. The other vagnate groups you speak about are as much Orthodox are as sedevacantists, PNCC, Chinese Patriotic Catholic Association, Old Catholics, etc. So there really isn’t several distinct groups, there’s two groups, the Eastern Orthodox and the Oriental Orthodox. The others are schismatic, non-canonical groups and thus non-Orthodox regardless of how faithful and strict their adherence is to Orthodox beliefs (similar to the sedevacantists).
You’re ignoring the Old Believers (I can’t- I run into them regularly) - both kinds.

You’re ignoring the fact that most of the “independent orthodox” recognize each other. Many are actually part of the Old Catholic communion.

It’s FAR from the cut and dried “two communions and a lot of stragglers” mode you’re mispresenting, Con.

It’s the same as the issue with the Old Catholics - Some are in communions that we don’t recognize, while others, like the PNCC or the Celtic Orthodox, are not in communion with anyone but themselves.

As for Miaphysitism, if it is truly a third, then (1) the Coptic Orthodox Patriarchal Website was wrong two years ago, and (2) it’s abject heresy (being identical to monophysitism). The Patriachal website explained it as Christ being fully man and fully divine, the two inseparable in his person, identifiable but inseparable. That’s two natures appearing as a third.
 
You’re ignoring the Old Believers (I can’t- I run into them regularly) - both kinds.

You’re ignoring the fact that most of the “independent orthodox” recognize each other. Many are actually part of the Old Catholic communion.

It’s FAR from the cut and dried “two communions and a lot of stragglers” mode you’re mispresenting, Con.

It’s the same as the issue with the Old Catholics - Some are in communions that we don’t recognize, while others, like the PNCC or the Celtic Orthodox, are not in communion with anyone but themselves.

As for Miaphysitism, if it is truly a third, then (1) the Coptic Orthodox Patriarchal Website was wrong two years ago, and (2) it’s abject heresy (being identical to monophysitism). The Patriachal website explained it as Christ being fully man and fully divine, the two inseparable in his person, identifiable but inseparable. That’s two natures appearing as a third.
But that is the thing, those in the “main communions” don’t recognize those who are not in the main communion. Are the Ukrainian Orthodox Church - Kyiv Patriarchate and the Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church considered to be Orthodox? We who are not Orthodox would say they are. But the Orthodox don’t consider them Orthodox. If they are not in communion with the Orthodox Churches, then they are not Orthodox. The same way that sedevacantists and the PNCC are not Catholics, despite their faithfulness to Catholic tradition. Otherwise, where do we draw the line here?
 
But that is the thing, those in the “main communions” don’t recognize those who are not in the main communion. Are the Ukrainian Orthodox Church - Kyiv Patriarchate and the Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church considered to be Orthodox? We who are not Orthodox would say they are. But the Orthodox don’t consider them Orthodox. If they are not in communion with the Orthodox Churches, then they are not Orthodox. The same way that sedevacantists and the PNCC are not Catholics, despite their faithfulness to Catholic tradition. Otherwise, where do we draw the line here?
It is important for a Catholic to NOT draw the line where Rome doesn’t - Rome considers the Kyiv Patriarchate to be Orthodox and orthodox. Rome doesn’t dictate which communion is the right one - it accepts the various Orthodox churches individually on their beliefs, not on which communion they are or are not in. Keep in mind, the Romainian Orthodox were, for a while, out of communion with half of the Eastern Orthodox Communion - while still in communion with other churches within the Eastern Orthodox.

It’s likewise important to show the way the term is used in an Accurate and non-polemical manner - The Celtic Orthodox are, aside from their recent disintegration as a corporate body, remain holding on to the essential elements of being a church - apostolic succession, the 7 sacraments, and right belief in the Trinity and the nature of the Eucharist, and non-heretical beliefs of justification, Mariology, and the Saints. (They also have deaconesses, but not female priests.)

Likwise, many Syrians object to the term Jacobite - even while an autonomous diocese within the Syrian Church uses it in their own name and internal references. The term is out there, it’s in use, and it’s worth mentioning it in an educational context, because it’s often used in talking about the Syrian Orthodox.
 
It is important for a Catholic to NOT draw the line where Rome doesn’t - Rome considers the Kyiv Patriarchate to be Orthodox and orthodox. Rome doesn’t dictate which communion is the right one - it accepts the various Orthodox churches individually on their beliefs, not on which communion they are or are not in. Keep in mind, the Romainian Orthodox were, for a while, out of communion with half of the Eastern Orthodox Communion - while still in communion with other churches within the Eastern Orthodox.
But calling them Orthodox is drawing the line. We are telling the Orthodox who are Orthodox and who are not. Do Catholics want the Orthodox tell them who are Catholic or not? Can the Ecumenical Patriarch say if the SSPX is indeed Catholic or not? What about the PNCC? I hope you are realizing what I am getting at here. Saying who is Orthodox based on what the Orthodox say who is Orthodox is not drawing the line. Saying contrary to what the Orthodox themselves are saying is drawing the line.
It’s likewise important to show the way the term is used in an Accurate and non-polemical manner - The Celtic Orthodox are, aside from their recent disintegration as a corporate body, remain holding on to the essential elements of being a church - apostolic succession, the 7 sacraments, and right belief in the Trinity and the nature of the Eucharist, and non-heretical beliefs of justification, Mariology, and the Saints. (They also have deaconesses, but not female priests.)
But as mentioned above, do you really want to get into the ecclesiological and theological decisions that have been made? Does the Catholic Church herself made a determination? As you said (and I take your word for this) the Catholic Church did not draw the line here. So why insist that they are Orthodox? The Orthodox drew the line, Catholics should follow suit if they are not drawing the line. Because to say otherwise is to draw the line. As you have done here, you made a judgement on the orthodoxy of their faith. But what if the Orthodox have a different criteria than you do?
Likwise, many Syrians object to the term Jacobite - even while an autonomous diocese within the Syrian Church uses it in their own name and internal references. The term is out there, it’s in use, and it’s worth mentioning it in an educational context, because it’s often used in talking about the Syrian Orthodox.
But in the same manner we can’t claim that the Syrian Orthodox are Eastern Orthodox. We already call them Oriental Orthodox, isn’t that enough?
 
But calling them Orthodox is drawing the line.
They’re putting it in their own public names. Acknowledging that isn’t drawing a line. Failing to accept that is, and it’s a dangerous one. It’s the same line that Moscow drew in the 1920’s in its anti-Catholic rhetoric… never refering to the Church in union as Catholic, but only as Papist, uniate, or Roman.

The Church treats the Ukrainian Orthodox Moscow Patriarchate as being exactly the same condition as the Russian Orthodox Patriarchate of Moscow - fellow Christians who have apostolic succession and valid sacraments, and a hierarchical church.

It’s not a Catholic issue that the MP has excommunicated the KP for simply existing… for doing for itself what Moscow’s Archbishop did a couple centuries earlier.

The church seems to treat the UAOC differently - but it is evaluated, all the same, on its own merits, and apparently has earned those differences in how it is treated. (That HG Peter-Paul has said some rather theologically dubious things ex-cathedra is probably part of it.)

Likewise the Polish Churches, the Old Catholics, and the Independent Orthodox can’t be treated as a singular group or even three singular groups - for each is a clade. A clade being a group of visibly similar things that may or may not actually be related in som way other than appearance.

That the Independent Orthodox generally look just like the Byzantine Catholics and Eastern Orthodox, it’s even more vital that people be made aware of them. In exactly the same way that people need to be aware that those “Catholics with the women priests” are not in union with Rome, as they’re “Old Catholics.”
 
They’re putting it in their own public names. Acknowledging that isn’t drawing a line. Failing to accept that is, and it’s a dangerous one. It’s the same line that Moscow drew in the 1920’s in its anti-Catholic rhetoric… never refering to the Church in union as Catholic, but only as Papist, uniate, or Roman.

The Church treats the Ukrainian Orthodox Moscow Patriarchate as being exactly the same condition as the Russian Orthodox Patriarchate of Moscow - fellow Christians who have apostolic succession and valid sacraments, and a hierarchical church.

It’s not a Catholic issue that the MP has excommunicated the KP for simply existing… for doing for itself what Moscow’s Archbishop did a couple centuries earlier.

The church seems to treat the UAOC differently - but it is evaluated, all the same, on its own merits, and apparently has earned those differences in how it is treated. (That HG Peter-Paul has said some rather theologically dubious things ex-cathedra is probably part of it.)

Likewise the Polish Churches, the Old Catholics, and the Independent Orthodox can’t be treated as a singular group or even three singular groups - for each is a clade. A clade being a group of visibly similar things that may or may not actually be related in som way other than appearance.

That the Independent Orthodox generally look just like the Byzantine Catholics and Eastern Orthodox, it’s even more vital that people be made aware of them. In exactly the same way that people need to be aware that those “Catholics with the women priests” are not in union with Rome, as they’re “Old Catholics.”
I think you’re overcomplicating the issue here. If someone wants to become Catholic, would you recommend that they go to a sedevacantist chapel? Why would you call someone Orthodox when the Orthodox themselves say they are not Orthodox. We know who the mainline Orthodox are. We know who we are in dialogue with. Why pretend?
 
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