List of Infallable papal proclamations

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The Cannon is addressed to “secular princes”.

i.e. The Catholic Church cannot order Jews to do anything, spiritual or otherwise.

The only “spiritual” issues addressed by the cannon “seem” to be about Christians blaming likeness in clothing as an excuse as to why they couldn’t avoid inter-faith unions (yeah right, I by that one) and whether or not Jews should be allowed to mock Christians during their liturgical celebrations (I’m thinking no.)

Both of these items seem rather “trivial: to me, but apparently it was enough of a problem to at least one bishop that it was addressed by the council.

Chuck
Ok, I understand what you are saying. But, the Church still cannonized this rule, expecting the princes (under pain of mortal sin I would guess) to carry out this order. Maybe I’m the only one but making Jews wear patches to point them out, outlawing them from holding office and holding them civily liable for being outside their homes on certain days seems very much like what the Nazis did. Am I misguided? To use the excuse that people were marying each other without knowing if they were Christian or Jew seems very disingenuous.
 
If it’s not DEFINITIVE truth, then it’s just theory, and not truth. The very definition of something being “true” means that it can be nothing else, hence it is by definition, Infallible.
Is this an infallible statement?
These are questions I’m raising in RCIA that no one can seem to answer.
Here’s a thought-

Go to your rcia class, close your mouth, open your heart. RCIA is not “Stump the Chumps” with Click and Clack. Instead of slapping yourself on the back for being an instigator, try checking around the room to see how many folks are rolling their eyes whenever you open your mouth.

Or you could try the Apologist line here at CA.

Have a nice day.
 
Is this an infallible statement?

Here’s a thought-

Go to your rcia class, close your mouth, open your heart. RCIA is not “Stump the Chumps” with Click and Clack. Instead of slapping yourself on the back for being an instigator, try checking around the room to see how many folks are rolling their eyes whenever you open your mouth.

Or you could try the Apologist line here at CA.

Have a nice day.
Mark,

So, is your opinion that Catholics should not ask questions and just blindly believe? After all, we don’t have to know why, we just have to believe. Or, should Catholics ask tough questions in order to know why something is taught?
 
Ok, I understand what you are saying. But, the Church still cannonized this rule, expecting the princes (under pain of mortal sin I would guess) to carry out this order. Maybe I’m the only one but making Jews wear patches to point them out, outlawing them from holding office and holding them civily liable for being outside their homes on certain days seems very much like what the Nazis did. Am I misguided? To use the excuse that people were marying each other without knowing if they were Christian or Jew seems very disingenuous.
Yeah I think it was disingenuous too. On the part of those making the claim. "I swear your Excellency I only married (insert name of pretty young Jewish girl) because I thought she was a Christian (not because she’s cute and her father is loaded)…really I swear.”

Read the Cannon’s again. I think your being overly sensitive to the possibility of Nazi like persecution of the Jews.

I do not see any indication that there was any attempt to mark Jews in any way similar to that of the Nazis, or that they even intended to do so in general.

It looks to me like they had some very specific people in mind for this Cannon that we know very little about.

As a modern American, it certainly rubs me the wrong way to see a “religious” litmus test for holding public office, however, in a Catholic monarchy, it hardly seems inappropriate to say “Hey Prince (so and so) you should be putting Catholics, not folks that hate Christ into leadership positions.”

What do you suppose the odds are of getting a Catholic Prime Minister in Israel?

Would you accuse the Jews of being anti Christian “Nazis” because the vast majority of their leaders are Jewish?

Chuck
 
It seems to me that it would be best to simply not ask why and just submit to every whim of the Church. After all, it can’t be wrong. In the end, we are slaves to whatever the Church tells us. Bottom line. No discussion. Right?
:ehh: Whims, huh? And “slaves?” This reveals some truly deep antipathy that goes beyond simple searching. Apparently the CCC tenets I posted did not suffice. I propose these two for your reflection.
Psalm 131
1 A song of ascents. Of David. LORD, my heart is not proud; nor are my eyes haughty. I do not busy myself with great matters, with things too sublime for me.
2 Rather, I have stilled my soul, hushed it like a weaned child. Like a weaned child on its mother’s lap, so is my soul within me.
ACT OF FAITH
(From the Baltimore Catechism)
O MY GOD, I firmly believe that Thou art one God in Three Divine Persons, Father, Son and Holy Ghost. I believe that Thy Divine Son became Man, and died for our sins, and that He will come to judge the living and the dead. I believe these and all the truths which the Holy Catholic Church teaches, because Thou hast revealed them, Who canst neither deceive nor be deceived.
So, as I’ve made the point in many discussions, if we are just to believe everything we are told, what is the point to researching or studying the Faith? Especially when such research and study often makes things less clear than they were before.
Studying the faith implies that we submit our reason to Him Who is above our reason, while at the same time diligently searching how to keep the two great commandments. The fact that there are zillions of denominations is because mankind refused to submit his reason to the Authority Christ established, which is often so far above our reason that we can only rest in faith. A prime example is the Trinity, followed by the Real Presence, and infallibility, all unknowable by reason.

Now if you decide that your reason is capable of knowing Truth solely by diligent research, you will fail utterly. I believe the gift of the Hierarchy is one of the greatest gifts God has given to us so that we may rest in His peace, while we may not completely understand.

ETB, I encourage you to study, well and good, but maybe you are poring over those issues that have little bearing on your salvation or your walk with Christ.

God bless.
 
Yeah I think it was disingenuous too. On the part of those making the claim. "I swear your Excellency I only married (insert name of pretty young Jewish girl) because I thought she was a Christian (not because she’s cute and her father is loaded)…really I swear.”

Read the Cannon’s again. I think your being overly sensitive to the possibility of Nazi like persecution of the Jews.

I do not see any indication that there was any attempt to mark Jews in any way similar to that of the Nazis, or that they even intended to do so in general.

It looks to me like they had some very specific people in mind for this Cannon that we know very little about.

As a modern American, it certainly rubs me the wrong way to see a “religious” litmus test for holding public office, however, in a Catholic monarchy, it hardly seems inappropriate to say “Hey Prince (so and so) you should be putting Catholics, not folks that hate Christ into leadership positions.”

What do you suppose the odds are of getting a Catholic Prime Minister in Israel?

Would you accuse the Jews of being anti Christian “Nazis” because the vast majority of their leaders are Jewish?

Chuck
Actually, Israel has elected muslims in their parlament. I doubt a Christian would be elected because of the Jewish make up of the population. However, they place no rules on whom may hold what office, as long as they are elected. So, it’s not really a fair comparison.

Now, I realize things were different back then. Government systems were different, etc. But, if one is to believe that the Church is never wrong, then outside influences should not affect truth. Right?
 
:ehh: Whims, huh? And “slaves?” This reveals some truly deep antipathy that goes beyond simple searching. Apparently the CCC tenets I posted did not suffice. I propose these two for your reflection.

Studying the faith implies that we submit our reason to Him Who is above our reason, while at the same time diligently searching how to keep the two great commandments. The fact that there are zillions of denominations is because mankind refused to submit his reason to the Authority Christ established, which is often so far above our reason that we can only rest in faith. A prime example is the Trinity, followed by the Real Presence, and infallibility, all unknowable by reason.

Now if you decide that your reason is capable of knowing Truth solely by diligent research, you will fail utterly. I believe the gift of the Hierarchy is one of the greatest gifts God has given to us so that we may rest in His peace, while we may not completely understand.

ETB, I encourage you to study, well and good, but maybe you are poring over those issues that have little bearing on your salvation or your walk with Christ.

God bless.
But what are the Truths and what are the supposed Truths? Is everything the Church teaches infallible? If not, how are we to hold teachings that are not infallible as infallible as far as faith is concerned? If the Church teaches something and decides not to make it an infallible teaching, it by definition has the possibility of error. Are we not to be wary of such things; of the wolf in sheeps clothing?

I know what the Church teaches on this. I know that it says the teachings might not be infallible but they must be believed because they at the most could not be wrong enough to lead us away from our Faith. I’m just trying to reconcile all of this. To me, this seems like a weak excuse for forcing everyone to obey, no matter what. And if the Church ends up being wrong on something, it can easily be explained away. I guess I am concerned with the great power the Church leadership has in light of it’s abuses in the past. I think the Church sex scandle proves that many Bishops are more concerned with keeping their own power and avoiding embarrassment then they were about protecting our children. How far will God allow this unholy power to go? Jesus said that he would never leave his Church. He didn’t say that he wouldn’t allow some, or even most of the Church leadership to go astray. Jesus said that there would only be a remnant in the end. Could that be just a remnant of Catholic Bishops too? Could it be that there will be a time when most of the Church has gone away from the true teachings and only a few hold the Truth? If this were to happen, and the majority of the Bishops were teaching non-truth, the Magisterium would also be teacing non-truth as a result of the majority wins way of doing things. Or, can we expect that the majority of Bishops will always hold the truth?

So, basically, I have two questions I am trying to reconcile.
  1. Why doesn’t the Church make infallible proclamations for those teachings which it expects us to follow as Truth?
  2. Could the majority of Bishops ever be in error, as in there will only be a remnant left?
Thanks:)
 
Mark,

So, is your opinion that Catholics should not ask questions and just blindly believe? After all, we don’t have to know why, we just have to believe. Or, should Catholics ask tough questions in order to know why something is taught?
RCIA is the place to go learn what the Church is teaching. Many many converts or other folks interested in the Catholic Church are more capable than many Catholic RCIA directors.

Tough questions are ok, but if the questions seem to be beyond the scope of rcia or the instructor’s expertise, its just plain disrespectful to persue that line of questioning.

Again, I would call the CA apologists line.
 
Jesus said that he would never leave his Church. He didn’t say that he wouldn’t allow some, or even most of the Church leadership to go astray.
So you put your faith in what He didn’t say, rather than what He said? He assured us that the gates of hell would never prevail against the Church. You either believe it is true, or you conjure up some loopholes to challenge His Divine Word. Which is it?
Jesus said that there would only be a remnant in the end. Could that be just a remnant of Catholic Bishops too?
You believe this as a word from Jesus, but not the one stated above? Do you pick and choose?
If this were to happen, and the majority of the Bishops were teaching non-truth, the Magisterium would also be teacing non-truth as a result of the majority wins way of doing things. Or, can we expect that the majority of Bishops will always hold the truth? **YES, if they are proclaiming teachings of faith and morals in union with the universal church.
**
Read Jesus’s words about in red (above) about the gates of hell. It won’t happen. Why entertain these worrisome ponderings that stimulate a lack of faith ?
  1. Why doesn’t the Church make infallible proclamations for those teachings which it expects us to follow as Truth?
There is no need for the Church to do so for the faithful who have simple trust. For those who demand signs and proof, we hear from Jesus that even if one rises from the dead, they will not believe. All teachings on faith and morals that are officially set forth by the Magisterium are to be assented to.

Now, if the pope or bishop says something on his own without defining a solemn teaching, it is not in this special realm of faith or morals, thereby requiring assent. Maybe that’s where you are confused. Not every single word that comes from their lips falls in the area of official teaching. When it is a Papal Bull, encyclical, Motu Proprio, or the teachings of a convened Council, then yes. We listen.

Do you read the gospels? There was an incident where Jesus was about His Father’s ‘business’ in teaching in the temple. When His earthly parents expressed concern, we read that He returned to Nazareth and was “subject to them.” He lived first by His own example what He wants of us, to obey lawful authority placed over us. What is awesome is that He was GOD, yet He obeyed finite man in the person of Joseph, who may have been wrong a time or two. No excuse to use one’s higher knowledge as a pretense to disobey.

There are just too many scriptures that show the importance God places on obedience to authority. I’m sure you can find them, and maybe should look at these things rather than study outdated documents that have little bearing in today’s living. Here’s an example in Canon Law where the older law was abrogated:
Can. 6 §1. When this Code takes force, the following are abrogated:
  1. the Code of Canon Law promulgated in 1917;
Can. 20 A later law abrogates, or derogates from, an earlier law if it states so expressly, is directly contrary to it, or completely reorders the entire matter of the earlier law.
There are older documents that were specific to the times in which they were set forth, yet are subject to change when those conditions are no longer valid.
 
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Expectthebest:
Jesus said that there would only be a remnant in the end. Could that be just a remnant of Catholic Bishops too?
Incidentally, I believe you are mistaken about Jesus saying this. Do a search in any online bible, and you will not find this anywhere in the gospels, except in the epistles when it refers to the Old Testament. I understand the Jehovah Witnesses believe only 144,000 will be saved, which is indeed a tiny remnant, but their concept is flawed, as we know. This is simply another example of people interpreting scripture according to their human reasoning and the error of any who believe these prophets rather than the Authority God left us in His Church.
 
Actually, Israel has elected muslims in their parlament. I doubt a Christian would be elected because of the Jewish make up of the population. However, they place no rules on whom may hold what office, as long as they are elected. So, it’s not really a fair comparison.

Now, I realize things were different back then. Government systems were different, etc. But, if one is to believe that the Church is never wrong, then outside influences should not affect truth. Right?
Right.

So given the time and circumstances (neither of which I think we know enough about in this case) what was “untrue” about the Cannons in question?

Is the opposite of what the cannons declare “true?”

Though I would prefer language other than “damnable mixing” do you think it is “true” that Christians should “join” with non-Christians?

Do you think it is “true” that non-Christians should be allowed to “parade in very ornate dress and”…”mock Christians who are presenting a memorial of the most sacred passion and are displaying signs of grief.” and “break out in derision of the Redeemer.”

Do you think that it is “true” that it is right for “a blasphemer of Christ to exercise power over Christians.”

Chuck
 
Right.

So given the time and circumstances (neither of which I think we know enough about in this case) what was “untrue” about the Cannons in question?

Is the opposite of what the cannons declare “true?”

Though I would prefer language other than “damnable mixing” do you think it is “true” that Christians should “join” with non-Christians?

Do you think it is “true” that non-Christians should be allowed to “parade in very ornate dress and”…”mock Christians who are presenting a memorial of the most sacred passion and are displaying signs of grief.” and “break out in derision of the Redeemer.”

Do you think that it is “true” that it is right for “a blasphemer of Christ to exercise power over Christians.”

Chuck
I believe, and I think the Church of today would agree, that we should treat all with respect and equality. Now, if the Cannon would have placed the same restrictions on Christians, that would be equal. There has been no shortage of Christians mocking the Jews throughout history and the Church didn’t seem to have a problem with that.

The question I am getting at is the mandatory assent to all the Magistarium puts forth. The Cannon in question was obviously put into place to opress. That is not the Christian way. That is the Muslim way. I think the Church today would never proclaim such a Cannon. So the question becomes, why was it right then and not right now? Why did oppression represent values which Christians were oblidged to assent to a good thing then and not now?
 
The Cannon in question was obviously put into place to opress.
I don’t think it is obvious at all that the cannons were “put into place to oppress.”

So I don’t think I can help in your effort to reconcile an apparent contradiction that I don’t see.

Good luck,

Chuck
 
I don’t think it is obvious at all that the cannons were “put into place to oppress.”

So I don’t think I can help in your effort to reconcile an apparent contradiction that I don’t see.

Good luck,

Chuck
Are you saying that this Cannon did not place certain restrictions on a specific people while not placing the same restrictions on others? Isn’t this the definition of the powerful oppressing the week?
 
Christ is Risen!
Indeed He is Risen!


Good people. Tomorrow is the Holy Orthodox feast of the Ascension of Our Lord. Pentecost is just around the corner. It is time for me to retreat into prayer. I am posting this to all the threads on which I have been actively participating. I have enjoyed our discussions. And so I will be leaving for an indefinite period of time.

I know, I know----some of you will be extremely upset that I’m gone. 😃

I will pray for everyone.

Peace and blessings,
Mickey
 
Are you saying that this Cannon did not place certain restrictions on a specific people while not placing the same restrictions on others? Isn’t this the definition of the powerful oppressing the week?
We “oppress” people any time a law is instituted.

Law’s against disturbing the peace - “oppression.”

Law’s agains running around naked - “oppression.”

Laws that make the desires of the minority of men in the “man boy love society” illegal must be “oppression” (it is, really, just ask’m.)

Chuck
 
The Catholic Church is only to make infallible doctrines when there is a midst of unclarity among the faithful.
WAs there “a midst of unclarity among the faithful” when Pius IX declared the Immaculate Conception in 1854? No, in fact he said in the decree there was a consensus. Same with the proclamation of the Assumption in 1950. Joe
 
We “oppress” people any time a law is instituted.

Law’s against disturbing the peace - “oppression.”

Law’s agains running around naked - “oppression.”

Laws that make the desires of the minority of men in the “man boy love society” illegal must be “oppression” (it is, really, just ask’m.)

Chuck
Chuck,

The difference is when one part of the populations has laws placed upon it that the other part does not, this is oppression. All the example above are laws that we all must abide by regardless of race or religion. The Nazis placed special laws on the Jews to single them out. The US did the same to blacks. The laws did not apply to the dominate class. This is the oppression I’m talking about.
 
Mark,

So, is your opinion that Catholics should not ask questions and just blindly believe? After all, we don’t have to know why, we just have to believe. Or, should Catholics ask tough questions in order to know why something is taught?
Hi expect !

1 Ptr 3:15
Always be prepared to make a defense to anyone who calls you to account for the hope that is in you, yet do it with gentleness and reverence.”
To me “anyone” does include a fellow catholic. And I hope I will always be able to find a guy answering my tough questions on faith. ( Who knows, maybe that will be you 🙂 )
Therefore, to state that clearly, I am with you on the
quoted issues.

Now, my :twocents: on the theoretical “list” of proclamations issued under the charism of infallibility ( “infallible statement” is
not a meaningful expression, IMHO)

There are brothers, both within the Catholic Church and outside it, particularly in EO churches, who are of the opinion that
the Magisterium has defined and defines too much. Some state so to defend the freedom of theologians and single believers, some to underline the role of Tradition (“less definition, more Tradition”, would likely tell us many orthodox brothers, I guess, but Mickey can correct this point of course if the impression is wrong).
Other brothers, both within the Church and outside it, particularly in western Christianity, are of the opinion that too little has been defined. Where is a magisterial list of all the Fathers of the Church ? Of all the statements with the highest degree of certainty (de fide), as we’re looking for here ?
Of all grave sins, described in any detail ? …
So, as it often goes, opposite legitimate criticisms to the Church mirror each other. Any degree of “definition-ism” ( let’s forgive the horrible expression 🙂 ), in particular, will always be too little and too much.

Now, for our case. Let’s suppose the Magisterium gives itself the task to prepare and issue a complete and easy-to-read list of all and only those teachings which are to be considered of the highest degree of certainty. Not an easy task indeed, we could observe, considering how precisely every statement should be formulated there. Let’s suppose the task is successfully accomplished, against all difficulties.
Here we have “the list” ! Great !

But, after a while, someone would begin observing. “Wait a moment. We have the new document with the list.
But …what degree of certainty has precisely that document itself ? Is it “de fide” ?”. Here we could have the new field for theological speculations, and new likely criticisms such as “*What use is a statement about what statements are certain, if we don’t know … if that statement is certain ?” *So speculations could grow, until…a possible new magisterial document about the status of the list, and afterwards about this document itself, ad infinitum.

I’m trying to tell that IMHO we can probably go into a logical difficulty in asking Magisterium to define infallibly what it has defined infallibly.
Similarly, you cannot find in Scripture a definition of what is in Scripture.

Does that mean that definitions of the living infallible Magisterium are useless. ? Rather, what we have IMHO is a structural dialectical relation between magisterial definitions of whatever degree of authority and speculative contributions by theologians and people all over the world. People can and must speculate about definitions, their precise meanings, the nature and degree of certainty of every sentence within them. There will always be, as there has always been, both magisterial and purely speculative theology.
The Magisterium listens to speculations and, if and only if necessary, issues new documents to give the right direction, with corrections, endorsements … Let’s remember that the main task of the Magisterium is not “defining” in itself , it is serving the Word of God, by guarding the deposit of the faith and being witness to it. It then “defines” if and when necessary to its task, every time using in adequate degree its authority.

I hope this can help 🙂
 
Hi expect !

1 Ptr 3:15
Always be prepared to make a defense to anyone who calls you to account for the hope that is in you, yet do it with gentleness and reverence.”
To me “anyone” does include a fellow catholic. And I hope I will always be able to find a guy answering my tough questions on faith. ( Who knows, maybe that will be you 🙂 )
Therefore, to state that clearly, I am with you on the
quoted issues.

Now, my :twocents: on the theoretical “list” of proclamations issued under the charism of infallibility ( “infallible statement” is
not a meaningful expression, IMHO)

There are brothers, both within the Catholic Church and outside it, particularly in EO churches, who are of the opinion that
the Magisterium has defined and defines too much. Some state so to defend the freedom of theologians and single believers, some to underline the role of Tradition (“less definition, more Tradition”, would likely tell us many orthodox brothers, I guess, but Mickey can correct this point of course if the impression is wrong).
Other brothers, both within the Church and outside it, particularly in western Christianity, are of the opinion that too little has been defined. Where is a magisterial list of all the Fathers of the Church ? Of all the statements with the highest degree of certainty (de fide), as we’re looking for here ?
Of all grave sins, described in any detail ? …
So, as it often goes, opposite legitimate criticisms to the Church mirror each other. Any degree of “definition-ism” ( let’s forgive the horrible expression 🙂 ), in particular, will always be too little and too much.

Now, for our case. Let’s suppose the Magisterium gives itself the task to prepare and issue a complete and easy-to-read list of all and only those teachings which are to be considered of the highest degree of certainty. Not an easy task indeed, we could observe, considering how precisely every statement should be formulated there. Let’s suppose the task is successfully accomplished, against all difficulties.
Here we have “the list” ! Great !

But, after a while, someone would begin observing. “Wait a moment. We have the new document with the list.
But …what degree of certainty has precisely that document itself ? Is it “de fide” ?”. Here we could have the new field for theological speculations, and new likely criticisms such as “*What use is a statement about what statements are certain, if we don’t know … if that statement is certain ?” *So speculations could grow, until…a possible new magisterial document about the status of the list, and afterwards about this document itself, ad infinitum.

I’m trying to tell that IMHO we can probably go into a logical difficulty in asking Magisterium to define infallibly what it has defined infallibly.
Similarly, you cannot find in Scripture a definition of what is in Scripture.

Does that mean that definitions of the living infallible Magisterium are useless. ? Rather, what we have IMHO is a structural dialectical relation between magisterial definitions of whatever degree of authority and speculative contributions by theologians and people all over the world. People can and must speculate about definitions, their precise meanings, the nature and degree of certainty of every sentence within them. There will always be, as there has always been, both magisterial and purely speculative theology.
The Magisterium listens to speculations and, if and only if necessary, issues new documents to give the right direction, with corrections, endorsements … Let’s remember that the main task of the Magisterium is not “defining” in itself , it is serving the Word of God, by guarding the deposit of the faith and being witness to it. It then “defines” if and when necessary to its task, every time using in adequate degree its authority.

I hope this can help 🙂
I don’t think it is too much to ask for what is defined infallible to be easily found. It seems that the Church doesn’t even know what it has proclaimed infallibly. If this is the case, and the Church really cannot present a list, there is a complete mess. It’s like saying the Church has the power and has defined certain teachings to be without error. But, we can’t tell you what those teaching are.
 
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