List things you like about Atheists

[ChristianWAB]

carol marie:

OK… it wasn’t easy but I’ve come up with a few things I like about Atheists…

1. Never had an atheist ask me if I were to die today, did I know for sure that I’d go straight to heaven?
2. Never had an atheist tell me that praying to Mary is wrong and I should just pray to Jesus instead.
3. Never had an atheist refuse to scoot down in the pew at church so my kids & I could sit.
4. Never had an atheist knock on my door to ask me if I’d like to live forever on Paradise Earth?
5. Haven’t heard an Atheist say that the Hurricane was God’s way of letting us know that Ellen DeGeneres should NOT be hosting the Emmy awards.

So, in short, you like the fact that Atheists don’t do what you dislike others doing to you, eh? I gotta admit that #5 made me laugh, though.

 

[Tigerhawk]

proudnifi:

To the comment that atheists only act in self-interest, I have sometimes wondered if it isn’t true that everyone acts in self-interest. Lots of people try to be good so they don’t go to hell; that would be acting in self-interest. If a person does good because they love God, then they do good acts because it makes them feel good to please God - self-interest again.

God who sees all judges not only men’s works but men’s hearts. Works done for selfish reasons alone are therefore of little value to the person performing the work.

proudnifi:

So, in some ways it’s nice to see an atheist doing good works - they see value in good deeds without waiting for God’s reward or punishment (for omission).

For the true atheist the only reason to perform a good work is for purely selfish reasons. Any other reason would imply that there is a deeper meaning or a higher purpose both of which must be false if there is no God and all is an accident.

 

[Tmaque]

Tigerhawk:

God who sees all judges not only men’s works but men’s hearts. Works done for selfish reasons alone are therefore of little value to the person performing the work.

For the true atheist the only reason to perform a good work is for purely selfish reasons. Any other reason would imply that there is a deeper meaning or a higher purpose both of which must be false if there is no God and all is an accident.

Everything we do, whether atheist or Catholic, we do because there is a benefit to us in some way. Every single action in our lives is motivated either by the desire to avoid pain(like going to hell, feeling guilty, etc), or the desire to gain pleasure(like the pleasure we feel when we help others). Ultimately, there is no such thing as totally un-selfish motivation with one possible exception. Jesus Christ. I have no idea what his motivation was in helping us pitiful creatures.

 

[Tigerhawk]

Tmaque:

Everything we do, whether atheist or Catholic, we do because there is a benefit to us in some way. Every single action in our lives is motivated either by the desire to avoid pain(like going to hell, feeling guilty, etc), or the desire to gain pleasure(like the pleasure we feel when we help others). Ultimately, there is no such thing as totally un-selfish motivation with one possible exception. Jesus Christ. I have no idea what his motivation was in helping us pitiful creatures.

I would highlight my use of the phrases “selfish reasons alone” and “purely selfish reasons”.

As sinners you are correct there is many times a selfish element. However, as Christians we are called to deny ourselves and take up our crosses daily. We are commanded to love others as we love ourselves. This kind of love cannot be rooted in selfish desires. How can we claim to love others if what we are doing at its root is for our own benefit?

Maybe the problem here is the distinction between motivation and expectations with receiving the rewards.

If your motivation for performing the action is to receive the reward then your action is selfish.

If you expect to receive a reward after performing an action again you are acting selfishly.

If you perform an action with no motivation or expectation of reward but receive the reward anyway that is not selfish.

This is why we must always try to be concious of our motivations and expectations to keep our eyes focused on God and others rather than ourselves.

If your statement above truly represents your attitude, desires and motivations. I would respectfully suggest that some examination is in order.

 

[MikeinSD]

When I was recovering after a hip replacement, an atheist neighbor was the only person who actually helped. Had lots of devouts praying for my recovery. But no one, friends or family, Catholic or other faiths, actually showed up to do something useful. I guess they were busy. The neighbor would carry up my groceries up 3 flights of stairs. He would carry down (and do) laundry.I didn’t know him very well before my surgery. He said he was helping out because I needed his help. And yes, he was a firm atheist. Our joke was that he was going to “out-Christian the Christians.” That he did.

 

[Tigerhawk]

MikeinSD:

When I was recovering after a hip replacement, an atheist neighbor was the only person who actually helped. Had lots of devouts praying for my recovery. But no one, friends or family, Catholic or other faiths, actually showed up to do something useful. I guess they were busy. The neighbor would carry up my groceries up 3 flights of stairs. He would carry down (and do) laundry.I didn’t know him very well before my surgery. He said he was helping out because I needed his help. And yes, he was a firm atheist. Our joke was that he was going to “out-Christian the Christians.” That he did.

Not sure what a firm atheist is, but he sure isn’t acting like one. Which is a very good thing by the way

There seem to be many people that claim to be atheist, but then act in direct contradiction to their assertion. Which is again a very good thing and I am all for it. However it doesn’t do much to bolster their claim to being atheist.

He said he was helping because you needed help, but have you asked him why that motivated him to do so?

Because it is the right thing to do? No such thing for a true atheist.

Because it was compassionate. Irrelevant for a true atheist.

All is an accident so helping you is pointless.

Why is always the question I have when confronted with atheism. Why do anything? I have yet to be given an answer that works in a God-less world.

 

[MikeinSD]

Tigerhawk:

Not sure what a firm atheist is, but he sure isn’t acting like one. Which is a very good thing by the way

There seem to be many people that claim to be atheist, but then act in direct contradiction to their assertion. Which is again a very good thing and I am all for it. However it doesn’t do much to bolster their claim to being atheist.

He said he was helping because you needed help, but have you asked him why that motivated him to do so?

Because it is the right thing to do? No such thing for a true atheist.

Because it was compassionate. Irrelevant for a true atheist.

All is an accident so helping you is pointless.

Why is always the question I have when confronted with atheism. Why do anything? I have yet to be given an answer that works in a God-less world.

He is a good man. I think he believed that helping me was good within itself. No need for the praise of heaven or the punishment of hell. The few avowed atheists I’ve meet seemed like ethical people. I believe it is possible to have ethics and not be religious.

 

[cheddarsox]

Tigerhawk:

Not sure what a firm atheist is, but he sure isn’t acting like one. Which is a very good thing by the way

There seem to be many people that claim to be atheist, but then act in direct contradiction to their assertion. Which is again a very good thing and I am all for it. However it doesn’t do much to bolster their claim to being atheist.
**
Wow! Insert “Christian” for atheist in the above. I get a sense of deja vu!**

He said he was helping because you needed help, but have you asked him why that motivated him to do so?

Because it is the right thing to do? No such thing for a true atheist.

Because it was compassionate. Irrelevant for a true atheist.

All is an accident so helping you is pointless.

Why is always the question I have when confronted with atheism. Why do anything? I have yet to be given an answer that works in a God-less world.

**Do you believe that animals believe in God and have an understanding of their creator? I’m curious because if they do not, why do many of them help one another, show compassion, etc.?

Is it instinct? Then perhaps the same for people. Why do animals do anything?

I get the feeling that this atheist/theist arguement is so much “in the head” so conceptual that sometimes those arguing it fail to keep sight of the big picture reality of the other side.

And this does tend to appear more on the part of theists arguing what atheists “must think believe and feel if they are real atheists”. No matter atheists say or do, the theists have decided for them what qualifies as “real atheism”.

However, one thing I keep hearing is that atheists think humans are no different from animals (that’s what the theists say about them) yet animals show cooperation and compassion, and most theists say animals do not have a spirit, do not know God. So if atheists, cannot have a reason for anything they do…how can animals?

I’m not an atheist, but I can recognize poor arguments just the same.

I think we need to look at reality, not just theory, or the arguments are pointless.

If theists get to define what atheists are “capable of” or “allowed to believe, think and feel” and disreguard the actual atheist experience of life, what is the point of that?

Or does it merely prove that there are fallible atheists, not living their beliefs, the way there are theists who don’t always practice their faith.

I guess that is human nature, to believe in one thing, but sometimes act in ways that are contrary to our belief system. But sinning christians are still christians, so I guess atheists who “miss the mark”, like it or not, are still atheists.

cheddar**

 

[Tigerhawk]

You are absolutely correct Christians could be inserted nicely into that statement. However, what effect does that have on the correctness of it with respect to atheists?

cheddarsox:

I get the feeling that this atheist/theist arguement is so much “in the head” so conceptual that sometimes those arguing it fail to keep sight of the big picture reality of the other side.

This is a rather ironic statement as this is exactly what you are doing. The big picture reality of the other side is that there is no God.

We can wander around in the trees of what animals believe and how Christians act, but it all comes back to in their world view there is no God and the ramifications of that belief.

cheddarsox:

And this does tend to appear more on the part of theists arguing what atheists “must think believe and feel if they are real atheists”. No matter atheists say or do, the theists have decided for them what qualifies as “real atheism”.

I can’t talk for other “theists”, I just point out the inconsistencies. I am not defining what they can or can’t do, say or believe. I am pointing out what they say, do or believe is not consistent with the world view that there is no God.

cheddarsox:

However, one thing I keep hearing is that atheists think humans are no different from animals (that’s what the theists say about them) yet animals show cooperation and compassion, and most theists say animals do not have a spirit, do not know God. So if atheists, cannot have a reason for anything they do…how can animals?

This question should really be directed to an atheist. However, atheists are created in the image and likeness of God as all men are. Animals have reasons to do things for the same reason we all do. There is a God.

cheddarsox:

I think we need to look at reality, not just theory, or the arguments are pointless.

Exactly, and God is reality. God is The Real.

cheddarsox:

Or does it merely prove that there are fallible atheists, not living their beliefs, the way there are theists who don’t always practice their faith.

I guess that is human nature, to believe in one thing, but sometimes act in ways that are contrary to our belief system. But sinning christians are still christians, so I guess atheists who “miss the mark”, like it or not, are still atheists.

True, but shouldn’t we try to help our atheist brothers and sisters to see the truth?

 

[Tigerhawk]

MikeinSD:

He is a good man. I think he believed that helping me was good within itself. No need for the praise of heaven or the punishment of hell. The few avowed atheists I’ve meet seemed like ethical people. I believe it is possible to have ethics and not be religious.

He does sound like a good man. The question is if he doesn’t believe there is anything other than what he sees why does he want to be?

It is definitely possible to have ethics and morals to a certain degree and not be religious. However again though the question is why would an atheist wish to be good, moral or ethical based on their world view?

 

[cheddarsox]

You are absolutely correct Christians could be inserted nicely into that statement. However, what effect does that have on the correctness of it with respect to atheists?

**Nothing, I was making an observation.
**

I can’t talk for other “theists”, I just point out the inconsistencies. I am not defining what they can or can’t do, say or believe. I am pointing out what they say, do or believe is not consistent with the world view that there is no God.
**
No, it is incosistent with your idea of the world view without a God. You have decided that people who don’t believe in God MUST believe such and such, and no matter what an atheists says or does contrary to that, you say that they are being inconsistent. But maybe there are more possibilities about how atheists view the world, besides the one you assigned them.

I often see theists claiming that atheists believe everything is an “accident”, but I have never seen an atheist claim that. But theists say they “must” believe everything is an accident in order to be consistent with atheism. I don’t understand that.
Why are there only two possibilities, God or complete randomness? That makes no sense to me.**

This question should really be directed to an atheist. However, atheists are created in the image and likeness of God as all men are. Animals have reasons to do things for the same reason we all do. There is a God.

**This being an open forum,I consider all questions as being aimed at any reader who cares to answer.
**
cheddar

 

[Tigerhawk]

cheddarsox:

No, it is incosistent with your idea of the world view without a God. You have decided that people who don’t believe in God MUST believe such and such, and no matter what an atheists says or does contrary to that, you say that they are being inconsistent. But maybe there are more possibilities about how atheists view the world, besides the one you assigned them.

I often see theists claiming that atheists believe everything is an “accident”, but I have never seen an atheist claim that. But theists say they “must” believe everything is an accident in order to be consistent with atheism. I don’t understand that.
Why are there only two possibilities, God or complete randomness? That makes no sense to me.

Really? What other options are there?

You want to paint me as a close-minded on the subject. The truth is the exact opposite.

I am very open to reading anything on this subject because I have always been facinated by atheism. However, don’t expect me to sit back and take everything at face value. I am going to ask questions about it.

I understand you are not an atheist, but my point continues to be if there is no God then what motivates an atheist.

If you have examples please feel free to share them.

Also, for what its worth I have not said atheists believe everything is random. My understanding is that most atheist recognize order in the universe and that would not be in anyway inconsistent with being an atheist. However, it all had to start somehow either by God which they reject or by some other means. Perhaps accident is an inadequate word, but if we dispense with the word games and focus on truth it works as well as any.

God Bless.

 

[cheddarsox]

Really? What other options are there?

Forces that are not caused by a “being” with personal, emotional attributes. Such as gravity, electromagnestism etc.
In my experience with atheists, they do not claim there is nothing at work, they don’t believe it is a deity, a distict person or entity.

You want to paint me as a close-minded on the subject. The truth is the exact opposite.

I am very open to reading anything on this subject because I have always been facinated by atheism. However, don’t expect me to sit back and take everything at face value. I am going to ask questions about it.
**
I apologize if I got personal. It is not my intention to paint you in any way at all, and I will make an effort not to make it personal, because my intention is to discuss the issue, not one another.

I love that you ask questions about it. That is why I am on the forums to discuss things. The last thing I want to do is shut anyone down. What’s the fun in that? I like the lively discussion, the exchange of ideas and the variety of view points. Please never take anything I post as an attempt to shut you down, I am just joining the fray, not trying to elbow anyone else out.**

I understand you are not an atheist, but my point continues to be if there is no God then what motivates an atheist.
**
I’ll offer a few ideas, but let them answer for themselves.
Love, desire to belong and contribute, their upbringing, hunger, sex, pride. The same sorts of things that motivate most of us, most of the time.**

Also, for what its worth I have not said atheists believe everything is random. My understanding is that most atheist recognize order in the universe and that would not be in anyway inconsistent with being an atheist. However, it all had to start somehow either by God which they reject or by some other means. Perhaps accident is an inadequate word, but if we dispense with the word games and focus on truth it works as well as any.

**Your use of the phrase “all is an accident” to describe atheists worldview sounded to me as if you believed they think everything is random.

On a discussion board, word choice is hardly a game. Words are all we have to express ourselves here, so it is best to choose them carefully. If that was not what you really meant, I have no way of knowing.

As I said, the atheists I know, and have known, reject the idea of deity, but recognize order and structure in the universe and are open to explanations that do not include any of the deities so far offered by humans. They feel there is no evidence for an invisible person, or persons who conduct the universe and who have the attributes that a said group of humans have claimed for the deity/ies

I have to admit, I have not found evidence of that sort of deity either, so I can see where they are coming from.**

I guess that leaves us to discussing what the “some other means” are, but that is a topic for a different thread, as we have already contributed to leading this one on an interesting, but off topic tangent.
**
cheddar**

 

[Tigerhawk]

cheddarsox:

Forces that are not caused by a “being” with personal, emotional attributes. Such as gravity, electromagnestism etc.
In my experience with atheists, they do not claim there is nothing at work, they don’t believe it is a deity, a distict person or entity

I can’t say that I understand the point you were trying to make then. The point I was trying to make is either the universe is created by God or it isn’t. Which theory an atheist choses is not relevant. The relevant element to me is they believe it is not God.

cheddarsox:

I apologize if I got personal. It is not my intention to paint you in any way at all, and I will make an effort not to make it personal, because my intention is to discuss the issue, not one another.

I love that you ask questions about it. That is why I am on the forums to discuss things. The last thing I want to do is shut anyone down. What’s the fun in that? I like the lively discussion, the exchange of ideas and the variety of view points. Please never take anything I post as an attempt to shut you down, I am just joining the fray, not trying to elbow anyone else out.

And I apologize as well, I was starting to get a little riled up. However, that is a reflection on me not you.

cheddarsox:

I’ll offer a few ideas, but let them answer for themselves.
Love, desire to belong and contribute, their upbringing, hunger, sex, pride. The same sorts of things that motivate most of us, most of the time.

These are what I truly find interesting. What is love to an atheist? If there is no God and we are here as a result of (insert your favorite scientific theory here) alone then isn’t love just the result of some biological and/or evolutionary process that is in essence a delusion that should be overcome by reason?

cheddarsox:

Your use of the phrase “all is an accident” to describe atheists worldview sounded to me as if you believed they think everything is random.

On a discussion board, word choice is hardly a game. Words are all we have to express ourselves here, so it is best to choose them carefully. If that was not what you really meant, I have no way of knowing.

I specifically did not use the word random because it seems entirely reasonable to me that an atheist can recognize order and not attribute it to God.

I was refering to the creation of the universe so if it was created by “accident” then “all is an accident” as in everything was created by “accident”. Perhaps I should have said all of this is an accident? Again I could probably choose a better word than accident but one escapes me.

cheddarsox:

I guess that leaves us to discussing what the “some other means” are, but that is a topic for a different thread, as we have already contributed to leading this one on an interesting, but off topic tangent.

True, but sometimes I just can’t help myself.

 

[cheddarsox]

These are what I truly find interesting. What is love to an atheist? If there is no God and we are here as a result of (insert your favorite scientific theory here) alone then isn’t love just the result of some biological and/or evolutionary process that is in essence a delusion that should be overcome by reason?

Not being an atheist I can’t answer in that vein, but I don’t get why things that are the result of evolution would be considered delusions. If one believes that natural cause is all there is, why would that make the results of natural cause a delusion? Wouldn’t it then be the ultimate reality?

I have heard some people try to reason away love and all other good, fun stuff. Some from a “intellectual” point of view, some from a religious point of view. I think those people are usually acting out from some previous hurt and trying to simplify and bullet proof life from the swamp of emotions.

I think that people take on a life view which at some level they perceive will work with their personality and make life liveable. for some this is atheism, for others, various forms of religion. These perspectives are tools.

In that sense, they are reasonable, as long as they bring about the desired result. For some people, the most reasonable stand of all is to delve into a complex belief of the supernatural!

cheddar

 

[ATeNumquam]

Well, I live in a relatively secular country, so most of the people I work with are atheists. Well, I guess they are. But they are not into arguing about religion, they seem to be very tolerant and quite respectful of those who do believe.
But what I like about them is that they actually make me think a lot about a couple of things:

1. How come these people exhibit, in the workplace, such a high degree of kindness, thoughtfulness and consideration, to the extent that I have to rate them (on these matters) more highly than many Christians/Catholics I know?
   I guess it’s evidence that we were all made in the image and likeness of God, even if we don’t acknowledge it, and these people are the best proof I have of that because, though these qualities must inevitably spring from some moral sense and sensitivity, it’s sort of unselfconscious and completely unaffected. The “innateness” of God!
2. I find it humbling that I can’t, at times, behave as well as some of these non-believers, so at least I get some good out of the comparison!

 

[SamCA]

Tigerhawk:

Why is always the question I have when confronted with atheism. Why do anything? I have yet to be given an answer that works in a God-less world.

There’s an answer to this question that I rather like, despite it’s being from a rather odd source. Did you ever see the television show “Angel”? They got into some surprisingly meaty philosophical issues on there, and man’s place in relation to a higher power was one of them. At one point in the series, the main character – who spent a fair amount of time believing himself to be Heaven’s champion on Earth – lost his faith, but kept helping people anyway. When asked why, this was his response:

“Well, I guess I kind of worked it out. If there’s no great glorious end to all this, if nothing we do matters… then all that matters is what we do. 'Cause that’s all there is. What we do. Now. Today. I fought for so long, for redemption, for a reward, and finally just to beat the other guy, but I never got it. …] All I want to do is help. I want to help because people shouldn’t suffer as they do. Because, if there isn’t any bigger meaning, then the smallest act of kindness is the greatest thing in the world.”

Works for me.

 

[b_justb]

I like that there are no atheists in fox holes.

 

[Gilbert_Keith]

AT

*1) How come these people exhibit, in the workplace, such a high degree of kindness, thoughtfulness and consideration, to the extent that I have to rate them (on these matters) more highly than many Christians/Catholics I know?
This is a crock. I’ve also hd a lot to do with atheists. Don’t you believe for a minute they are better than Christians as a rule. If it were so, what good would Christianity be?

But go into the prisons as I have. You will find them filled up with atheists, and it was their atheism that got them there.

Why have so little faith in the power of your own faith?