Litany of the Blessed Virgin Mary - over the top?!

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The source of Oral Tradition? Simple. Christ Himself (of whom we are told that not everything He said and did was recorded in Scripture but was in fact ‘heard’ by the apostles who carried on with the teachings), The Holy Spirit (whom we are told in Scripture will guide us to all Truth), conveyed by the apostles who carried on (as St. Paul tells us) by word of mouth the teachings that they had received from God and by succession through the apostles as instructed by the Spirit through the institution of the Church Our Savior established.

Just as the source of Scripture is God and is conveyed through the men God chose to record His written word, the source of Sacred Tradition is God, conveyed through the men God chose to receive and teach His spoken words, given to us by the Holy Spirit, the Paraclete.
 
Tantum ergo;2515077]The source of Oral Tradition? Simple. Christ Himself (of whom we are told that not everything He said and did was recorded in Scripture but was in fact ‘heard’ by the apostles who carried on with the teachings),
Would this be the written Scriptures?
The Holy Spirit (whom we are told in Scripture will guide us to all Truth), conveyed by the apostles who carried on (as St. Paul tells us) by word of mouth the teachings that they had received from God and by succession through the apostles as instructed by the Spirit through the institution of the Church Our Savior established.
Can you give me a couple of examples of the “oral tradition” of the apostles not found in scripture?
Just as the source of Scripture is God and is conveyed through the men God chose to record His written word, the source of Sacred Tradition is God, conveyed through the men God chose to receive and teach His spoken words, given to us by the Holy Spirit, the Paraclete.
Is this “Sacred Tradition” going on today? Is this “Sacred Tradition” at the same level as the inspired-inerrant written Scriptures?
 
Quote:
Tantum ergo;2515077]The source of Oral Tradition? Simple. Christ Himself (of whom we are told that not everything He said and did was recorded in Scripture but was in fact ‘heard’ by the apostles who carried on with the teachings),

Would this be the written Scriptures? Yes. John 21 25 But there are also many other things which Jesus did; which, if they were written every one, the world itself, I think, would not be able to contain the books that should be written.

Quote:
The Holy Spirit (whom we are told in Scripture will guide us to all Truth), conveyed by the apostles who carried on (as St. Paul tells us) by word of mouth the teachings that they had received from God and by succession through the apostles as instructed by the Spirit through the institution of the Church Our Savior established.

Can you give me a couple of examples of the “oral tradition” of the apostles not found in scripture? The answer to that is that nothing in Sacred Tradition (which BTW is slightly different from ‘tradition’) is contraindicated by Scripture, and vice versa. So I really cannot tell you that Sacred Tradition is ‘not found in Scripture’. It is. For example, the Trinity as being Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, Three Divine Persons in One God. Implied in Scripture, the definitive teaching has been accepted by most Christians but–by using the Bible alone without acceptance of the oral tradition–you have Unitarians, for example, as well as JWs. Everything that you have spoken against as ‘unBiblical’ is, on the contrary, quite Biblical. . .the Real Presence, Mary’s Immaculate Conception, etc. when read in the fullness of truth and the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. Whereas doctrines such as OSAS and “faith alone” are not only contradicted when one reads the Bible as a whole instead of cherry picking, but contradict as well the established Christian practices of centuries. It is not the Catholic Church which is guilty of being “unBiblical”.

Quote:
Just as the source of Scripture is God and is conveyed through the men God chose to record His written word, the source of Sacred Tradition is God, conveyed through the men God chose to receive and teach His spoken words, given to us by the Holy Spirit, the Paraclete.

Is this “Sacred Tradition” going on today? Is this “Sacred Tradition” at the same level as the inspired-inerrant written Scriptures? Is the Bible still going on today? I think you would say it is, would you not? So yes, the Bible and Sacred Tradition both exist today as they have done through the centuries. Do you not believe the Holy Spirit is still guiding us today?

As for ‘level’, Sacred Tradition is the inspired inerrant word of God which has been conveyed to us through the Holy Spirit. Unless you have a bias that something that is written down somewhere trumps the same information that is spoken, why would you consider one better than the other? God is not 'better than" God. To paraphrase Edith Stein, God is God is God.
 
Would this be the written Scriptures?Can you give me a couple of examples of the “oral tradition” of the apostles not found in scripture?
There is one that is most important. That is the Trinity. In Isaiah, it teaches that there is only one God. However, Jesus is called God in John and elsewhere. John and Acts mention the HS being God as well.

How is this problem solved? In or around 381AD, the Church defined the tradition held by the Apostles on the Trinity. That meant that the Church, the Apostles and their successors always believed that there were three Persons in one God. This belief was challenged (Macedonians?), and the Church formally declared the tradition.

Every Christian believes in the Trinity. If they don’t, then they are not speaking about the same God. It is because of Sacred Tradition that we have a definition of the Trinity.

If someone has issue with that, then they need to pray to Jesus and ask why He would put the Church in charge rather than the Bible. (Keys to the Kingdom, Bind and Loosen, forgive/retain sins, etc.)
 
Tantum ergo;2515558]Quote:
Tantum ergo;2515077]The source of Oral Tradition? Simple. Christ Himself (of whom we are told that not everything He said and did was recorded in Scripture but was in fact ‘heard’ by the apostles who carried on with the teachings),
Would this be the written Scriptures? Yes. John 21 25 But there are also many other things which Jesus did; which, if they were written every one, the world itself, I think, would not be able to contain the books that should be written.
This is true. However, what exactly is John referring to here? I don’t know of any teaching or saying of Jesus outside the NT.
Quote:
The Holy Spirit (whom we are told in Scripture will guide us to all Truth), conveyed by the apostles who carried on (as St. Paul tells us) by word of mouth the teachings that they had received from God and by succession through the apostles as instructed by the Spirit through the institution of the Church Our Savior established.
Can you give me a couple of examples of the “oral tradition” of the apostles not found in scripture? The answer to that is that nothing in Sacred Tradition (which BTW is slightly different from ‘tradition’) is contraindicated by Scripture, and vice versa. So I really cannot tell you that Sacred Tradition is ‘not found in Scripture’. It is.
I don’t anyone can either. So this counts against Sacred Tradition whatever that is.
For example, the Trinity as being Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, Three Divine Persons in One God. Implied in Scripture, the definitive teaching has been accepted by most Christians but–by using the Bible alone without acceptance of the oral tradition–you have Unitarians, for example, as well as JWs.
The trinity can be supported by the Scriptures.
Everything that you have spoken against as ‘unBiblical’ is, on the contrary, quite Biblical. . .the Real Presence, Mary’s Immaculate Conception, etc. when read in the fullness of truth and the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.
For now lets address you claim on Mary’s Immaculate Conception. I have yet to see one verse in scripture that comes even close to supporting this claim. Can you point me to one specific verse that would tell me she was without sin or kept from sin?
Whereas doctrines such as OSAS and “faith alone” are not only contradicted when one reads the Bible as a whole instead of cherry picking, but contradict as well the established Christian practices of centuries. It is not the Catholic Church which is guilty of being “unBiblical”.

This thread is not really about faith alone but about the marian doctrines.
Quote:
Just as the source of Scripture is God and is conveyed through the men God chose to record His written word, the source of Sacred Tradition is God, conveyed through the men God chose to receive and teach His spoken words, given to us by the Holy Spirit, the Paraclete.
Is this “Sacred Tradition” going on today? Is this “Sacred Tradition” at the same level as the inspired-inerrant written Scriptures? Is the Bible still going on today? I think you would say it is, would you not? So yes, the Bible and Sacred Tradition both exist today as they have done through the centuries.
The Bible does exist today but nothing is being added to it. The canon is closed.
Can you give me a couple examples of “Sacred Tradition” that is being formed today?
Do you not believe the Holy Spirit is still guiding us today?
Depends what you mean by “guidance”. How would you know someone is being “guided by the Holy Spirit”?
As for ‘level’, Sacred Tradition is the inspired inerrant word of God which has been conveyed to us through the Holy Spirit. Unless you have a bias that something that is written down somewhere trumps the same information that is spoken, why would you consider one better than the other? God is not 'better than" God. To paraphrase Edith Stein, God is God is God.

I’m confused here. How do you know what is “inspired Sacred Tradition”?
 
There is one that is most important. That is the Trinity. In Isaiah, it teaches that there is only one God. However, Jesus is called God in John and elsewhere. John and Acts mention the HS being God as well.

How is this problem solved? In or around 381AD, the Church defined the tradition held by the Apostles on the Trinity. That meant that the Church, the Apostles and their successors always believed that there were three Persons in one God. This belief was challenged (Macedonians?), and the Church formally declared the tradition.

Every Christian believes in the Trinity. If they don’t, then they are not speaking about the same God. It is because of Sacred Tradition that we have a definition of the Trinity.

If someone has issue with that, then they need to pray to Jesus and ask why He would put the Church in charge rather than the Bible. (Keys to the Kingdom, Bind and Loosen, forgive/retain sins, etc.)
the doctrine of the Trinity is gleaned from the Scriptures themselves and not from tradition. Tradition and the Scriptures are not the same things.
 
kquinn;2514957]The OP does not seem to hold issue with the authority of the Church or with oral tradition as essential to the full composite of the faith. This being the case OP (and if not, please correct me), have you read works from the early church? Perhaps you can update us on your mindset currently and specific questions you now have.
I am wondering what sources you have read on sacred tradition, and ask you to consider the biases that the author may have brought into it.
Not sure what you are asking here. How are you defining Sacred Tradition?

I
am thinking that perhaps you meant to say that scriptures does not refer to her as mother of Christians…am I right?
Correct.
The issue here is again the question of authority and oral tradition. I am sure you agree that prior to the actual writting down of the gospels and other NT books, the teachings were passed on orally (not all of those spreading these teachings would have had access to Pauls letters, etc). This does not in anyway invalidate them as Truth…I will stop here as I think this may be straying from the OP’s topic specifically.
For catholics it is an issue of authority. They believe these things not because the scriptures teach these things (they don’t) but because their church teaches them. That’s why it is important to look at the grounds for what your church teaches. Just because she may say something is true does not make it so.

God bless!
 
Gosh, this is getting long but in the interests of clarity. . .I’ll make two posts of it.

Tantum ergo;2515077]The source of Oral Tradition? Simple. Christ Himself (of whom we are told that not everything He said and did was recorded in Scripture but was in fact ‘heard’ by the apostles who carried on with the teachings), ]Atemi: Would this be the written Scriptures? TEYes. John 21 25 But there are also many other things which Jesus did; which, if they were written every one, the world itself, I think, would not be able to contain the books that should be written.

Atemi: This is true. However, what exactly is John referring to here? I don’t know of any teaching or saying of Jesus outside the NT. TE: You know of the teachings and sayings of Jesus “not recorded” in Scripture–because the Holy Spirit–who is likewise God and whom we are told “guides us to all truth” and to whom we are indebted for the inspiration which enabled the Church to assemble Holy Scripture as well as to sustain the early Church through Sacred Tradition with whatever Scripture was available–has led us to the truth–as in the Trinity which you yourself ‘accept’ as being embryonic in Scripture but not flat out asserted or understood until later.

TE: The Holy Spirit (whom we are told in Scripture will guide us to all Truth), conveyed by the apostles who carried on (as St. Paul tells us) by word of mouth the teachings that they had received from God and by succession through the apostles as instructed by the Spirit through the institution of the Church Our Savior established.
Atemi: Can you give me a couple of examples of the “oral tradition” of the apostles not found in scripture? TE: The answer to that is that nothing in Sacred Tradition (which BTW is slightly different from ‘tradition’) is contraindicated by Scripture, and vice versa. So I really cannot tell you that Sacred Tradition is ‘not found in Scripture’. It is. . .(etc). . .

I don’t anyone can either. So this counts against Sacred Tradition whatever that is. TE: I’m sorry; this is very unclear. Could you explain what you meant? I have said that Sacred Tradition is indeed ‘found’ in Scripture.

TE: For example, the Trinity as being Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, Three Divine Persons in One God. Implied in Scripture, the definitive teaching has been accepted by most Christians but–by using the Bible alone without acceptance of the oral tradition–you have Unitarians, for example, as well as JWs.

]Atemi: The trinity can be supported by the Scriptures.This is obtuse of you, Atemi. I have said, and I repeat, that the Trinity is supported by Scripture but its interpretation as we know it–that which the Holy Spirit led us to 'guiding to all Truth" is part of Sacred Tradition, which never has nor will contradict Scripture.

TE: Everything that you have spoken against as ‘unBiblical’ is, on the contrary, quite Biblical. . .the Real Presence, Mary’s Immaculate Conception, etc. when read in the fullness of truth and the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

Atemi: For now lets address you claim on Mary’s Immaculate Conception. I have yet to see one verse in scripture that comes even close to supporting this claim. Can you point me to one specific verse that would tell me she was without sin or kept from sin? TE: You are looking for ‘one verse’ like some magic bullet. The Scripture is not a collection of one-liners but is meant to be read in context. There are several Scriptural passages throughout the entire Bible which support the claims and you have been given links to show that support. . .Scripture Catholic, the library right here at Catholic Answers, etc. Please read Luke Chapters 1 and 2 and use your concordance and pray.

]
 
Part 2:

TE: Whereas doctrines such as OSAS and “faith alone” are not only contradicted when one reads the Bible as a whole instead of cherry picking, but contradict as well the established Christian practices of centuries. It is not the Catholic Church which is guilty of being “unBiblical”.

Atemi: This thread is not really about faith alone but about the marian doctrines.
TE: ]It is germane to the topic, but if you prefer, you can start another thread.
TE: Just as the source of Scripture is God and is conveyed through the men God chose to record His written word, the source of Sacred Tradition is God, conveyed through the men God chose to receive and teach His spoken words, given to us by the Holy Spirit, the Paraclete.

]Atemi: IIs this “Sacred Tradition” going on today? Is this “Sacred Tradition” at the same level as the inspired-inerrant written Scriptures? TE: Is the Bible still going on today? I think you would say it is, would you not? So yes, the Bible and Sacred Tradition both exist today as they have done through the centuries.

Atemi: The Bible does exist today but nothing is being added to it. The canon is closed. Can you give me a couple examples of “Sacred Tradition” that is being formed today? TE: The canon is closed but our understanding of “all truth” which the Holy Spirit is guiding us to is ongoing. Nothing that we teach contradicts Scripture, unlike others who, for example, teach that divorce is permitted, that abortion is permitted, that sodomy is permitted, etc. There is nothing that is being FORMED by Sacred Tradition TODAY, only an understanding of what has always BEEN.

TE: Do you not believe the Holy Spirit is still guiding us today?

Atemi: Depends what you mean by “guidance”. How would you know someone is being “guided by the Holy Spirit”? How would YOU, Atemi? Your Protestant brothers and sisters disagree on many, many Biblical teachings. How do you know your interpretation is correct?

TE: As for ‘level’, Sacred Tradition is the inspired inerrant word of God which has been conveyed to us through the Holy Spirit. Unless you have a bias that something that is written down somewhere trumps the same information that is spoken, why would you consider one better than the other? God is not 'better than" God. To paraphrase Edith Stein, God is God is God.

Atemi: I’m confused here. How do you know what is “inspired Sacred Tradition”?
TE: Well, that’s why Jesus established a Church and gave us a leader and His Paraclete. So that we wouldn’t have thousands and thousands of people telling us “Look, there the Messiah is!” but would be guarded and protected so that the gates of hell would not prevail against us. No ‘personal interpretation’ that could not be authentically known to be guided by the Holy Spirit.
 
the doctrine of the Trinity is gleaned from the Scriptures themselves and not from tradition. Tradition and the Scriptures are not the same things.
TE, in the post above, addresses this (very well), but I will answer since you quoted me.

The Holy Bible does not define the idea of the Trinity (nor some of the teachings about Mary). It is left to the Church to settle disputes about what Christ taught.

The importance and reverence of Mary is also “gleaned” from Scripture. (Christ does what Mary asked @ Cana, Mary is foreshadowed in the OT and is a part of the fulfillment of the Prophecy of the Messiah, FULL of Grace, Favored, etc.)

Christ warned us not to listen to those who do not teach the Truth. How do we know what the Truth is? Should I listen to a man or a woman who claims to have the Truth based on his/her own appointment, or should I follow the succession of the Apostles for verification that the Truth is really from the Church that Christ left?

The only way to know what I’m being taught is the Truth, is to verify it against Scripture, Tradition, and the Church authority. The teachings about Mary come from all three, and all are in harmony.
 
One is that the Scriptures don’t support many of the doctrines on Mary. Not only are they not mentioned but in some cases goes against the clear teaching of scripture. Mary being without sin is one example.
Could you clerify?
justasking4;2512032:
Now let me ask you; if a person made a claim about something that happed 300 years ago but had no evidence to support it, would you believe it?
I’m sure you would agree that just because something is not immediately written down (remember, even the first of the Gospels was not written at the time of Christ’s Ascension. This does not make it less true.
Have you looked at the source of this “Sacred Tradition”? From what i have read it goes far beyond what the scriptures tell us about Mary. Many of these pronouncements about her have no basis in scripture (which is the source of all that we know about her) but are the speculations of men who add things to her that they should not do.
I was referring to this mention of yours of Sacred Tradition readings when I asked what you had read. I am wondering what you were using that wording in reference to.
Would this be the written Scriptures?
As has been mentioned by another poster, there are several references in the Bible reminding us that Jesus did other things that were not recorded. Also…nowhere in scripture is sola scriptura advocated.
Can you give me a couple of examples of the “oral tradition” of the apostles not found in scripture?
Correct me if I’m wrong, but it is my understanding that you will not except anything that is not in the canon of the bible.

When I mentioned the issue you had was authority, what I meant was, you do not believe that Jesus set up authority within his Church (this is also a topic for it’s own post, however, I will briefly explain). With this mindset in place, you will not be convinced of any Catholic teachings not soley based on scripture (and this is an assumption of course) because you do not believe the Church has this authority from God.This is the first issue that should be discussed, as it is the first link in the chain. Why did Jesus say that the gates of hell would not prevail against His Church if the Church was teaching error prior to the Reformation. Why do you place trust in a New Testament compiled by the Church and preserved by her for so long? Why, in John 6, does Jesus emphasize that we must eat his body and drink his blood over and over? Why do disciples leave him over this, but he does not correct their thinking if he meant it only figuratively? Why, even in the early church (even in the NT) do we see division of heirarchy? Please look at David Curries book that I mentioned previously, so that you will understand the reasoning that the Church has reason behind what she does, and why those of us who have entered the Church understand her teachings (by this I mean specifically dogmas) to be God’s truth: not because they originate from her, but because they originate from God and are preserved and passed on by her through the centuries.

God bless and keep you,
katie
 
kquinn;2520143]Could you clerify?
That mary was a sinner? If that is what you are asking then yes. She was sinner in need of a Savior.
I’m sure you would agree that just because something is not immediately written down (remember, even the first of the Gospels was not written at the time of Christ’s Ascension. This does not make it less true.
I agree. however, there is no written down documents for this claim that she ascended. You don’t hear about it for some time. Long after the eyewitnesses are dead.
I was referring to this mention of yours of Sacred Tradition readings when I asked what you had read. I am wondering what you were using that wording in reference to.
I have many catholics this question of “Sacred Tradition”. Perhaps you can help. Where is this definitive list of Sacred Tradition to be found? Do you know the dates of when these various traditions started? How is Sacred Tradition defined in your church and who defines it?
As has been mentioned by another poster, there are several references in the Bible reminding us that Jesus did other things that were not recorded. Also…nowhere in scripture is sola scriptura advocated.
I’m aware of this passage. However, what are these “other things” He did? Do you know specifically what they were?
Correct me if I’m wrong, but it is my understanding that you will not except anything that is not in the canon of the bible.
My first place to look for something that is related to the Christian faith are the Scriptures. I ask, do the Scriptures teach what a person or group is claiming is the truth. If i see that it does not, then i know its not scriptural. Then i will look at other areas to see how others try to justify it as being true.
When I mentioned the issue you had was authority, what I meant was, you do not believe that Jesus set up authority within his Church (this is also a topic for it’s own post, however, I will briefly explain). With this mindset in place, you will not be convinced of any Catholic teachings not soley based on scripture (and this is an assumption of course) because you do not believe the Church has this authority from God.This is the first issue that should be discussed, as it is the first link in the chain. Why did Jesus say that the gates of hell would not prevail against His Church if the Church was teaching error prior to the Reformation. Why do you place trust in a New Testament compiled by the Church and preserved by her for so long? Why, in John 6, does Jesus emphasize that we must eat his body and drink his blood over and over? Why do disciples leave him over this, but he does not correct their thinking if he meant it only figuratively? Why, even in the early church (even in the NT) do we see division of heirarchy? Please look at David Curries book that I mentioned previously, so that you will understand the reasoning that the Church has reason behind what she does, and why those of us who have entered the Church understand her teachings (by this I mean specifically dogmas) to be God’s truth: not because they originate from her, but because they originate from God and are preserved and passed on by her through the centuries.
God bless and keep you,
katie
You ask a lot of important questions here that would take pages to fill. Let me brief. I have realized for a long time that with catholics its not the scriptures that ultimately guide them, but rather what the catholic church teaches. It is as you say, the primary issue is authority. One of the problems with this premise is that Jesus never gave such absolute error free athority to anyone. Jesus never guranteed that leaders in a church would be protected from error. In fact He and others warned that false teachers would come into the church and decieve many. There was no divine protection given to the church for this. With this mind the question we must ask: what would false teachers teach and how would we know? The only inerrant teachings we have are the scriptures. It is by knowing them, and knowing them well that we can discern these false teachings. Take the marian doctrines. Much of what the catholic church claims about her cannot be found in scripture. Not only can they not be found there but some of the claims such as her being without sin goes against other passages that teach all men are sinners. Much more could be said but i think this demonstrates where i’m coming from and why it is absolutely to discuss these things. Much is at stake.
 
That mary was a sinner? If that is what you are asking then yes. She was sinner in need of a Savior.
You cannot point to one example of her sin, though. Nowhere in the Sacred Scripture does it say that she sinned. In fact, it says that she has found favor with God; and she is “Full of Grace”. All generations will call her Blessed.

The reason you cannot find a reference to her sin is because she did not sin.

Now, why would she need a Savior? Let me ask a question back: If Jesus was truly man, then why wouldn’t he need a Savior too (at least His human nature)? He was subject to the same effects of being human that every man is. Why did his human nature not inherit the stain of original sin as well?

The conclusion is this: an obvious exception was made. Now, in Mary’s case, she was cleared of original sin at the conception of her life. It HAD to be this way (Job 14:4). Jesus’ mother could not be incorruptible, because she was the new Ark. The old Ark was made from incorruptible wood (Exodus: not sure of the actual verses). The new Ark is the same, and that is Mary for she carried the New Covenant - Jesus.

My point is this: Without Jesus, there is no Salvation and Redemption. And without the Birth of Jesus, there is no need for Mary to be pure. She is dependent on Jesus for her Salvation and Redemption as well, although, she doesn’t receive it as we do, because of her ultimate role - being the New Ark.

It’s unfortunate that some newer churches do not tie the OT with the NT (old Ark - new Ark, old Adam/Eve - new Adam/Eve).

It’s no wonder that people of today question the level of honor that she should receive.
 
justasking4;2522049[COLOR=Blue:
[QUOTE]
But examine everything carefully; hold fast to that which is good;
I Thessalonians 5:21
[/QUOTE]
]

(J-Bell’s Fiancee)

How do you determine what is Good? do you trust yourself? your Church? Who’s Interpretation of the Bible establishes The Good that you hold fast too? (I mean this kindly, it is an important examination we must all make.) I believe for Catholics the answers to those questions are found both in the bible and in tradition that establish there Faith that God MADE the Catholic church infalible. (I will leave this here because, I feel that it is off topic.)

I not being Catholic am uncomfortable with Marian devotion to the same extent as the OP. However, discomfort does not make something wrong.

I have the same level of concern with the # of terms used to describe Mary not because they are vast but, because I do not understand each ones validity.

I do not know where in this thread I read someone say something to the extent of could you give you mother enough praise. and as I think about it more and more, the answer is No, I could not give my mother enough praise and she is definitively with sin however she brought me into the world and loved me and made me the person I love to be today. How much greater was Mary bringing Jesus into the world for the world to be redeemed. and with that thought I say how could we not Love and Honor Mary as the mother of Christ as the Vesile of our Redeemer as a obedient servant to God. Why would God not want us to honor a woman of such virtue/obedience? why would Christ deny his mother everlasting praise? she is the Mother of Christ the Mother of our savior.she should be Honored Duly.

I think for those of us unfamiliar with Marian devotion. when you are swept away in it. it becomes scary, because there is the notion that you are strictly to give God/Christ that kind of praise and when that notion strikes it feels like Worship instead of Honor. ( we have the sense that Marian Devotion detracts from Worship of God.) then the question I ask myself is by loving and honoring my mother do I not love and honor my father think of it in a earthly or a heavenly sense. By loving and honoring the woman that my father/Father choose I love my father love of her is an extension of my love for my father/Father. praising her Praises him no matter how much I praise her and does not take away from my relationship and my position to him. God will always be greater than Mary. God will always Deserve Worship and Mary honor. and Honoring Mary will always Honor God/Christ.
 
jabelltulsa;2522138]You cannot point to one example of her sin, though. Nowhere in the Sacred Scripture does it say that she sinned. In fact, it says that she has found favor with God; and she is “Full of Grace”. All generations will call her Blessed.
The reason you cannot find a reference to her sin is because she did not sin.
Let me answer this a couple of ways. There are many people mentioned in the Scriptures and it is not mentioned either that they sinned. Should we assume that they were sinless also?
Secondly, the scriptures clearly declare that all mankind has sinned. You can see this in Romans 3:9 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin;
10 as it is written,“There is none righteous, not even one;
She herself admits as much in Luke 1:47 where she says–47 And my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior

If i’m not mistaken that even some church fathers beleived she had sinned.
Now, why would she need a Savior? Let me ask a question back: If Jesus was truly man, then why wouldn’t he need a Savior too (at least His human nature)? He was subject to the same effects of being human that every man is. Why did his human nature not inherit the stain of original sin as well?
The conception is unique among mankind. Only He was conceived by the HS and free from the sin nature that we all inherit from Adam.
The conclusion is this: an obvious exception was made. Now, in Mary’s case, she was cleared of original sin at the conception of her life. It HAD to be this way (Job 14:4). Jesus’ mother could not be incorruptible, because she was the new Ark. The old Ark was made from incorruptible wood (Exodus: not sure of the actual verses). The new Ark is the same, and that is Mary for she carried the New Covenant - Jesus.
The problem with this analogy is that it has no basis in Scripture in regards to Mary. She is never referred to as some kind of ark. Nor is there any evidence that she was “kept from sinning” as i have heard various catholics explain it.
My point is this: Without Jesus, there is no Salvation and Redemption.
true
And without the Birth of Jesus, there is no need for Mary to be pure. She is dependent on Jesus for her Salvation and Redemption as well, although, she doesn’t receive it as we do, because of her ultimate role - being the New Ark.
There is no grounds in scripture for saying this about Mary. Remeber that it is only in the scriptures that we know anything at all about her and they never say anything like this about her. What you are doing is speculating without any facts from scripture to support your position.
It’s unfortunate that some newer churches do not tie the OT with the NT (old Ark - new Ark, old Adam/Eve - new Adam/Eve).
It’s no wonder that people of today question the level of honor that she should receive.
No one should be giving honor-veneration to Mary the way the catholic church teaches for the mere fact the scriptures never teach such things about her.
 
(J-Bell’s Fiancee)

How do you determine what is Good? do you trust yourself? your Church? Who’s Interpretation of the Bible establishes The Good that you hold fast too? (I mean this kindly, it is an important examination we must all make.) I believe for Catholics the answers to those questions are found both in the bible and in tradition that establish there Faith that God MADE the Catholic church infalible. (I will leave this here because, I feel that it is off topic.)

I not being Catholic am uncomfortable with Marian devotion to the same extent as the OP. However, discomfort does not make something wrong.

I have the same level of concern with the # of terms used to describe Mary not because they are vast but, because I do not understand each ones validity.

I do not know where in this thread I read someone say something to the extent of could you give you mother enough praise. and as I think about it more and more, the answer is No, I could not give my mother enough praise and she is definitively with sin however she brought me into the world and loved me and made me the person I love to be today. How much greater was Mary bringing Jesus into the world for the world to be redeemed. and with that thought I say how could we not Love and Honor Mary as the mother of Christ as the Vesile of our Redeemer as a obedient servant to God. Why would God not want us to honor a woman of such virtue/obedience? why would Christ deny his mother everlasting praise? she is the Mother of Christ the Mother of our savior.she should be Honored Duly.

I think for those of us unfamiliar with Marian devotion. when you are swept away in it. it becomes scary, because there is the notion that you are strictly to give God/Christ that kind of praise and when that notion strikes it feels like Worship instead of Honor. ( we have the sense that Marian Devotion detracts from Worship of God.) then the question I ask myself is by loving and honoring my mother do I not love and honor my father think of it in a earthly or a heavenly sense. By loving and honoring the woman that my father/Father choose I love my father love of her is an extension of my love for my father/Father. praising her Praises him no matter how much I praise her and does not take away from my relationship and my position to him. God will always be greater than Mary. God will always Deserve Worship and Mary honor. and Honoring Mary will always Honor God/Christ.
There is no basis in scripture for anyone to give Mary the kind of honor-veneration. Mary was a sinner like all of us that God used to bring Christ into the world. Even Jesus Himself never spoke of her in the way the catholic church does. What this honor-veneration to Mary does ultimately is to distract from the purity and devotion to Christ alone (2 Corinthians 11:3). It is He alone Who saves. He alone that makes the christian life possible. He alone that makes forgiveness possible.
 
No one should be giving honor-veneration to Mary the way the catholic church teaches for the mere fact the scriptures never teach such things about her.
First: The Catholic Church teaches that Mary should be honored because **the Scriptures themselves **support the honor the Church gives her and all should give her. Just as there is nothing that flat out states in the Bible: God is One Being in Three Divine Persons (but Christians teach exactly this, implicit in Scripture), there may not be an explicit, “Mary was conceived without Sin” although the Scripture is implicit (full of grace, in context with many old testament passages and the parallels with the Ark of the Covenant for starters). And the fact is, for 1500 years the honor was given to Mary as the Catholic Church still does today. . .even the ‘reformers’ Luther and Calvin honored her that way.

Second: Not everything that Jesus said and did --in teaching His disciples–is presented in Scripture. “But there are many more things which Jesus did which are not given here.” Therefore, to state that because something is not presented in Scripture does not mean it was not an authoritative oral teaching. St. Paul tells us to hold fast to the traditions, both by word of mouth and letter, that we have received. Jesus founded a Church, not a book, not even a holy and wonderful book which many of us Catholics read daily for wonderful Scriptural nourishment. . .but the “book”, though the written word, is ‘not enough’. We have the flesh and blood of the Risen Lord as our main nourishment, and the written word as the supplemental ‘appetizer’ that enables us to feed and digest that communion most richly.

Third: We are told the Holy Spirit would guide us to all truth. That guidance included oral guidance (much of which has come down to us as Sacred Tradition, none of which contradicts Sacred Scripture, and all of which is found implicitly in Sacred Scripture or does not contradict Sacred Scripture) for the 350 years we did not have the canon of Scripture and for another nearly 1500 years after that when there were few who could read, fewer still who could afford, a Bible.

Fourth: Nowhere in Scripture does it state that Scripture ‘alone’ is the ‘only’ source of Truth. After all, Scripture says nothing about computers, in vitro fertilization, or gay marriage. Using Scripture ‘alone’, we have thousands of Christians arguing that Jesus ‘never said anything about homosexual actions being wrong’ so therefore they aren’tt wrong. What makes their interpretation of Scripture wrong or right then? What authority can make them sure their Scripture interpretation is correct when other groups claim the same authority–Scripture and ‘the Holy Spirit’ and come to a diametrically opposite conclusion?

One cannot have something be both a and not-a. One cannot have homosexual actions being both wrong and not wrong.
“Scripture alone” has led to these dichotomies because each person makes himself his own authority.
 
I don’t want to rip into all forty odd titles for Mary, but just to name one as an example…else I’d be typing forever lol…Mary is not the cause of our joy, Jesus is… regardless of Jesus coming through Mary it doesn’t mean we should attribute all things to her through her Son.

Why all the titles, why not just plain Mary? I suspect there are more titles invented for Mary by man then are named in the Bible for Jesus himself.

It’s the extent of the focus on her that’s my problem.
I think you are just freaking out over the nature of a ‘litany’—a litany is exactly what you are describing–a ‘list’ of many titles for someone. There are many litanies for angels and saints and all follow this same form of listing many titles and asking after each to pray for us. But every one of them start out addressing the Holy Trinity and end with a prayer asking for it to be directed by the subject’s intercession to God. Do a Google to look up other litanies. Off the top of my head there is a litany to St. Joseph, to the Archangels, to The Holy Spirit, even to subjects not considered persons like to the Precious Blood.
 
Tantum ergo;2523943]First: The Catholic Church teaches that Mary should be honored because **the Scriptures themselves **support the honor the Church gives her and all should give her. Just as there is nothing that flat out states in the Bible: God is One Being in Three Divine Persons (but Christians teach exactly this, implicit in Scripture), there may not be an explicit, “Mary was conceived without Sin” although the Scripture is implicit (full of grace, in context with many old testament passages and the parallels with the Ark of the Covenant for starters). And the fact is, for 1500 years the honor was given to Mary as the Catholic Church still does today. . .even the ‘reformers’ Luther and Calvin honored her that way.
Let me address a couple of points you make here. One is that “full of grace” does not mean without sin all of a person’ life. Look this phrase up in a greek lexicon.
As for Mary being in parallel with the “Ark of the covenant” there is no such teaching in the scriptures about her with this. I suspect also this was unknown for centuries.
Second: Not everything that Jesus said and did --in teaching His disciples–is presented in Scripture. “But there are many more things which Jesus did which are not given here.” Therefore, to state that because something is not presented in Scripture does not mean it was not an authoritative oral teaching.
I’m famliar with this saying but it doesn’t help you. That saying has to do with the Lord Jesus and other things He did. Secondly, i agree there was “oral teaching” but we don’t know what that was. The only thing we do know are the written Scriptures.
St. Paul tells us to hold fast to the traditions, both by word of mouth and letter, that we have received.
Notice the context in which Paul is writing. His traditions are from him and not someone else. He is not speaking of any future leaders traditions.
Jesus founded a Church, not a book,
Huh? Did Jesus consider the OT to be inspired-inerrant? Did He put His teachings on the same par as the OT? Did His followers? Did the NT church?

If what you say is true, then why did the church eventually find it necessary to define the canon of the NT and call it sacred scripture?
not even a holy and wonderful book which many of us Catholics read daily for wonderful Scriptural nourishment. . .but the “book”, though the written word, is ‘not enough’.
The what am i to make of these passages that say otherwise:
John 15: 7 “If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you.
I Peter 1:23 for you have been born again not of seed which is perishable but imperishable, that is, through the living and enduring word of God.
I Peter 2:like newborn babies, long for the pure milk of the word, so that by it you may grow in respect to salvation,

Without the Scriptures you don’t have the church nor knowledge of salvation in Christ.
We have the flesh and blood of the Risen Lord as our main nourishment, and the written word as the supplemental ‘appetizer’ that enables us to feed and digest that communion most richly.
Third: We are told the Holy Spirit would guide us to all truth. That guidance included oral guidance (much of which has come down to us as Sacred Tradition, none of which contradicts Sacred Scripture, and all of which is found implicitly in Sacred Scripture or does not contradict Sacred Scripture) for the 350 years we did not have the canon of Scripture and for another nearly 1500 years after that when there were few who could read, fewer still who could afford, a Bible.
Fourth: Nowhere in Scripture does it state that Scripture ‘alone’ is the ‘only’ source of Truth. After all, Scripture says nothing about computers, in vitro fertilization, or gay marriage. Using Scripture ‘alone’, we have thousands of Christians arguing that Jesus ‘never said anything about homosexual actions being wrong’ so therefore they aren’tt wrong. What makes their interpretation of Scripture wrong or right then? What authority can make them sure their Scripture interpretation is correct when other groups claim the same authority–Scripture and ‘the Holy Spirit’ and come to a diametrically opposite conclusion?
One cannot have something be both a and not-a. One cannot have homosexual actions being both wrong and not wrong.
“Scripture alone” has led to these dichotomies because each person makes himself his own authority.
These would be good topics for another time
 
Let me answer this a couple of ways. There are many people mentioned in the Scriptures and it is not mentioned either that they sinned. Should we assume that they were sinless also?
Secondly, the scriptures clearly declare that all mankind has sinned. You can see this in Romans 3:9 What then? Are we better than they? Not at all; for we have already charged that both Jews and Greeks are all under sin;
10 as it is written,“There is none righteous, not even one;
She herself admits as much in Luke 1:47 where she says–47 And my spirit has rejoiced in God my Savior
I have already pointed this out - the NT reflects the OT. Things are all made new. We just see this differently, but my teachings come from the Church that Christ left us. If you don’t believe that Christ was brought to us through a sinless being, then I don’t see how you can conclude that he himself was not born of sin.
If i’m not mistaken that even some church fathers beleived she had sinned.
Cite, please. I attest that this is not the teachings of the infallible Church.
The conception is unique among mankind. Only He was conceived by the HS and free from the sin nature that we all inherit from Adam.
True that, but Mary was the other participant in that Conception (Let It be done unto me). Granted the HS is free from sin, but wouldn’t Mary have to be too? You make no relationship between the OT and the NT concerning the Ark concept, so I don’t know where to go from here. I can only say that Christ makes all things new. In order to make things new, you have to be referring to the old things (read this as Old Testament and therefore, the Ark of the Old Covenant becoming the New - the Old Covenant becomes the New Covenant in this sense of renewal)
What you are doing is speculating without any facts from scripture to support your position.
No, I don’t speculate in matters of dogma. The Church is my Teacher. I follow what She says. You do not. I have stated clearly what I have been taught by the Church. The Church uses Sacred Tradition, and Sacred Scripture.

Well, some Scriptural references I can make for Mary is that she is His mother, she asked Him to perform His first public miracle (and He did so), an Angel called her Full of Grace (Kecharitomene). He causes us to revere and honor her by His example. I, for one, will be following suit.
 
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