Literal or symbolic? Partaking of the flesh and blood

[Nita]

Benjamin1973 doesn’t understand what transubstantiation means. It is the whole substance of the bread that changes into the substance of the whole body of Christ and the whole substance of the wine that changes into the substance of the blood of Christ. The appearances or accidents of the bread and wine remain. Substance in itself before affected by the accidents of a thing is not something that can be observed, measured, or quantified. We only know it by the intellect. A substance such as bread or wine is visible, sensible, and quantifiable due to accidental forms which inhere in the substance. But, the substances of the bread and wine in transubstantiation are changed or converted into the substances of Christ’s body and blood but not the accidents of the bread and wine which remain by divine power.

Christ’s literal flesh, his DNA, his bones, heart, muscles, indeed his entire body is substantially present under the appearances or accidents of the bread just as the substance of the bread was before transubstantiation. But, the accidents of the bread and wine that remain after the consecration do not inhere in the substance of Christ’s body or blood. They are accidents of bread and wine not of Christ’s body and blood. Since the entire body of Christ is substantially present under the appearances of the bread, so are his accidents comcomitantly but after the manner of substance which in itself is invisible and unquantifiable or measurable or sensible. It is a matter of believing in Jesus’ word that he is substantially present and that the bread and wine are transubstantiated into his body and blood. And this faith in Jesus’ word is very pleasing to him and meritorious.

Very good post. It’s not only non-Catholics, but also many Catholics, who don’t understand the philosophical meaning of “substance” (and thus “transubstantiation”) which is the meaning of substance when speaking of the Eucharist.

 

[Chris4]

Question
Is why would her beloved Son not first appear to his beloved Mother and leaving us only to assume such?

Question
Why was it not important for the Apostles, St Paul (never mentions Blessed Mary does he, why?) to record within the Gospels or within other sources>>> that Jesus >>>>first >>>appeared to his Beloved Mother, but leaves us only to assume this or that or maybe this or that?

Peace

I agree totally with St. John 21:25. Or may I ask why they did’t write the number of time Jesus shaved his beard. Why don’t they remark that He also did his own laundry, trimmed his nails? Why? We humans are simply impossible with the Sola Scriptura doctrine. Unless it is written, it is not ?

 

[rose321]

I agree totally with St. John 21:25. Or may I ask why they did’t write the number of time Jesus shaved his beard. Why don’t they remark that He also did his own laundry, trimmed his nails? Why? We humans are simply impossible with the Sola Scriptura doctrine. Unless it is written, it is not ?

Respectfully opinion only pondering

Apples vs Oranges?>>>
Jesus did not come to make it known so we could all know Jesus >>> did his own laundry?

but Jesus came to record, His Spoken Word, to record for those in the present and in the future, will all know Jesus came to lay down his own life >> die the worst agony of death on the cross, was greatly persecuted in doing so, gave>>>> us His Spoken Word >>for our very salvation right?

And one does not take the Bible literally either and one also seeks outside sources, not just one source either. Like studying other religions also, for we do have lots in common with them also do we not? Seems over the generations upon generations we seem to have adopted from also on certain things, have we not?

Peace

 

[Chris4]

And one does not take the Bible literally either and one also seeks outside sources, not just one source either. Like studying other religions also, for we do have lots in common with them also do we not? Seems over the generations upon generations we seem to have adopted from also on certain things, have we not?

Peace

That is true rose321. That,for one, addresses the doctrine under contention. For example the a non-christian Faith has some three other beliefs one of which is the one that accepts Jesus as the Word of God. And they have quite a bit about Jesus not written in Scripture. Another outside source from scripture is the Church. She knows when to take the bible literally and when not. Her teachings are trustworthy because Christ is in charge. However, the Catholic acceptance of transubstantiation is apostolic and a legacy from Christ. It is difficult for the Church to teach and practice it any other way. One has to experience it to know what it is. Outside it, we are only left with modern and ‘intellectual’ arguments.

 

[OriginalGabrielof12]

Hi, rose 321 I can see you are well versed in the scriptures. I believe the following scripture introduces our subject at hand, at least something to ponder.
Hebrews 4:12
Indeed, the word of God is living and effective, sharper than any two-edged sword, penetrating even between soul and spirit, joints and marrow, and able to discern reflections and thoughts of the heart.
13
No creature is concealed from him, but everything is naked and exposed to the eyes of him to whom we must render an account.
The Eucharist is a divine mystery that can never be penetrated fully from this side of death. During the persecution of early Catholic Church and beyond, the early Christians were not introduced into the mysteries of the Eucharist until these unlearned believers were fully baptized into the Catholic Christian faith.
I find you perspective on the subject of the Eucharist very interesting. The Catholic Church today is not under public severe persecution, persecuted today for sure, but not as in the day’s from antiquity.
Here are some introductions that may help our discussion here.
First of all the Eucharist is the pinnacle and summit of the Christian faith for over 2000 years and counting unchanged, the Eucharist is a Sacrament. the Eucharist is an inexhaustible mystery of faith that cannot be fully defined, the Eucharist is God Present during the celebration of the divine mysteries revealed by God to our humanity.
For the sake of our discussion, do you know what a sacrament is as revealed by Jesus Christ Himself and as taught by the Catholic Church since the resurrection of Jesus.
I believe having the correct understanding of what a Sacrament is, can begin the path of understanding from a carnal position (flesh, bone and marrow) that opens oneself to gain a faith in the Eucharist, as being a Literal substantial Presence of Jesus body, blood, soul and divinity, that opens ones carnal understanding into a profound mystery of God’s Presence and how God loves to make Himself known to you and I.
What St.Paul is speaking about to the Corinthians, is not about rejecting a carnal understanding into the Spiritual realities describes in Spiritual terms, such as Sacrament and Eucharist.St. Paul is teaching on Truth and understanding the Spiritual realities where the carnal mind begins the faith (babes) in order to gain such wisdom. Later from this same Letter to the Corinthians, St.Paul would distinguish the difference into the mysteries of God between those on the milk and those who are able to eat the meat of the Gospel.

 

[OriginalGabrielof12]

Question
Does Jesus not make himself present to all who receive him in Communion taught he is Spiritually present?

In here lies the problem of a faith in a Symbolic Spirit which does not exist. We Catholics believe that the Holy Spirit is a Person, and NO where in the bible does it ever reveal a Spirit to be symbolic or those things of the Spiritual realities reflecting to something symbolic.
I have to disagree with you here, IF? you are relating Holy Communion to something reflecting a symbolic “Spiritual presence”. In Holy Communion Jesus IS substantially Present to us, bodily, blood, soul and divinity. There is no such thing in all things Spiritual as a symbolic “Spiritual presence”. Either you have the Spirit or you never have a symbolic spirit.
This “Spiritual presence” you speak of is a man made new ideology introduced into Protestant splintered denominations.
Remove the symbolic “spiritual presence” understanding invented by men. Then re-read John 6 and the other Gospels with a prayer to the Holy Spirit for guidance.
Peace be with you

 

[rose321]

We Catholics believe that the Holy Spirit is a Person, and NO where in the bible does it ever reveal a Spirit to be symbolic or those things of the Spiritual realities reflecting to something symbolic.

Hello OriginalGabrielof12> I fully agree with what you have stated!! >> which is>>>

Holy Spirit is a Person, each and everyone of us are to strive and render ourselves Holy unto the Lord, are we not as commanded and written?>>

1 Peter 1:15-17 Be as he which hath called you is holy so be ye holy in all manner written, be holy for I am Holy…

Mark 1L24 ( Luke 4:34) Knowing that he was holy the whole lump is also holy…and if the root be holy Roman 11:16

John 6:69 We believe and know that you are the Holy one of God…

John 10:30 I an the Father are one…
you also can become one in me as I am one in the father? How?

John 17:21 that all of them may be one as you Father are in me and I am in you, may they also be one in us so that the world will know that you sent me…

. How do we accomplish such, become holy also?
Written and taught within Jesus teaching is it not?

One body, the body has many members and all members move as one with the Head of the body, all holy?

All members of the One body have the same will and desire as the head of the Body?

House is not divided?
If the lump is holy the whole lump is holy?

Did Jesus not use what was finite, physical, what we only knew, to teach us all how to>> know>>our>> infinite Spiritual, Eternal, Our Spiritual Father, creator of all and about Spiritual matters?

Jesus walked in the flesh, but Jesus fully lived in the Spirit, did he not? Written>believe in His Spoken Word as Truth and follow me?

No such thing as death, death is only the physical agony we must all go through…unquote >>Little child of Jesus, St Therese my favorite Saint.

Question in pondering

Are we not all Spiritual beings living within, experiencing a physical body, a physical life? Jesus teaches us to >>know>>thy self?

Peace just questioning, pondering on His Spoken Word all throughout the Bible, I am Holy thou art to be holy also?

Finite Flesh returns to the matter from which it took root from and our Spiritual Being will it not also return to that from which it took root from also?

if the root is Holy the whole is Holy?
I am the vine you are the branches, first fruits…?

Peace

 

[rose321]

Does Jesus not make himself present to all who receive him in Communion taught he is Spiritually present?

Respectfully all throughout Jesus teaching, preaching, wanting to make it>>known>> Our Heavenly Father seeks to rest, live and dwell within each one of us does he not?

Is it not written?>>>

Do you not know you are the Temple of the Lord?

Does our Heavenly Spiritual Father, from within His Spoken Words>>seeks>>> to be Worshiped? Glorified within each one of us > throughout our daily physical walk in Life?

1 Corinthians I tell you no flesh and blood can inherit the Kingdom>>

Written also within John gospel>> No flesh and blood enters the Kingdom

Questioning pondering …

Then what enters the kingdom of our Heavenly Father and what and whom>> will inherit the Kingdom then?

I am Holy thou art to be Holy also?
Peace

 

[PrisonerOfChrist]

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)

Looks literal to me

 

[OriginalGabrielof12]

Hi rose321 thank you for you response, In reading your last post, it does not reveal a symbolic Spirit, which we can find common ground.

Where we disagree, while present before a Valid Eucharist, a symbolic spirit does not exist.

For one who denies the real, (substantial, sacramental) Presence of Jesus body, blood, soul and divinity is Present in Eucharist. Deceives oneself to believe that Jesus is only present in a spiritual symbolic way.
There is never a symbolic Jesus spiritual presence. Either you have Jesus Present or you don’t.
Are you familiar with the Hebrew word Jesus used to reference His rememberance at the last supper in Zakar or Anamesis in Greek?

Zakar or Anamesis never reference anything symbolic. When Jesus states; “This IS my body, This IS my blood”, Jesus removes all doubt and symbolic thought for all ages to understand and begin to believe including His disciples who were present.

The symbolic Jesus or symbolic present does not enter Christian History until the protestant reformation invented by Men.

Thus we can conclude from Christian antiquity (the passion and resurrection) to today in Jesus body the Catholic Church has always believed in literal real substantial presence of Jesus body, blood, soul and divinity. Whereby a symbolic body and blood or spiritual Jesus was never divinely revealed by Jesus, or believed in by Christians (Catholic Church) since the passion and resurrection of Jesus Christ.

1Corithians 10:16
The cup of blessing that we bless, is it not a participation in the blood of Christ? The bread that we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ?l
17
Because the loaf of bread is one, we, though many, are one body, for we all partake of the one loaf.

St. Paul records a curse to those who do not discern the true body and blood of Jesus Christ in the Eucharist (Last supper)

I Corinthians; 2 I praise you because you remember me in everything and hold fast to the traditions, just as I handed them on to you.

*** For I received from the Lord what I also handed on to you**,k that the Lord Jesus, on the night he was handed over, took bread,
24
and, after he had given thanks, broke it and said, “This is my body that is for you. Do this in remembrance of me.”
25
In the same way also the cup, after supper, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood. Do this, as often as you drink it, in remembrance of me.”l
26
For as often as you eat this bread and drink the cup, you proclaim the death of the Lord until he comes.

27
Therefore whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily will have to answer for the body and blood of the Lord.*
28
A person should examine himself,* and so eat the bread and drink the cup.
29

*For anyone who eats and drinks without discerning the body, eats and drinks judgment on himself.

 

[Vico]

…
Some left because believing in the real precense is hard. If it was only a symbol, why didn’t Jesus just tell those who left because they misunderstood stood his teaching. Or explain to his disciples his true teaching? The reason is he meant what he said, the Eucharist is his body and blood, like the manna was.

Also different than manna in one sense:

John 6

58 This is the bread that came down from heaven. Not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead. He that eateth this bread, shall live for ever.

 

[rose321]

For one who denies the real, (substantial, sacramental) Presence of Jesus body, blood, soul and divinity is Present in Eucharist. Deceives oneself to believe that Jesus is only present in a spiritual symbolic way.
There is never a symbolic Jesus spiritual presence. Either you have Jesus Present or you don’t.
Are you familiar with the Hebrew word Jesus used to reference His rememberance at the last supper in Zakar or Anamesis in Greek?

Respectfully toward and thank you for your kind reply and discussion on this topic Title.

Opinion only, One agrees with you there is>> no>> such thing as a >>symbolic >>Jesus only spiritual presents. Our Heavenly Father is an Infinite Eternal Spiritual Being who >>never dies, is this not true?

There forth our Heavenly Father is a living infinite eternal Spiritual Being and he is not symbolic, he exist>he dies not> all that he has created, human beings in the flesh, being all God breathe >exist and we also are>>> not a symbolic presents are we?

We exist, as human beings in the flesh >> in a physical present we can be seen, being not yet as Spiritual Beings, that cannot be seen, but Spiritual Beings exist> right?

How does a >>Infinite Eternal Spiritual Being, daily, weekly? transform himself, during Holy Communion>> back into flesh and blood? That is my question and respectfully confused on

Written in the Gospels and within John also, Jesus stating>>No flesh and blood enters the Kingdom, so can one explain to me, what enters the Kingdom?

So one agrees with you >>Jesus is not a >>symbolic spiritual present. No more then human beings in the flesh are symbolic present either>> only difference is physically in the flesh we can be seen, thou a living Spiritual Being, cannot be physically seen can they, but they are living Spiritual Beings right?

Just because a Spiritual Living Being has not physical flesh>> does not mean they do not exist does it?

No one denies Jesus presents nor is one deceived either, fully believing Jesus does not just show up at Communion time either does he?

Look under a stone I am there?
Why pray to Our Heavenly Father>>if he cannot hear us or answer us if it is his will to do so?

One does not deny Jesus Spiritual present, but rather one strongly believes Jesus >Spiritual present does not just take place at Communion time, does it?
Nor does he need to transform himself back into flesh and blood to save does he?

So question then is>> did Saul have to believe in the body and blood in order for Jesus to Spiritually present himself and in saving Saul now St Paul?

What I am trying to express, is that Jesus> His Spiritual Presents > Spiritual nourishes us, does not do so >only during Holy Communion, does he?
But any place?
Any time?
And with whom, he so chooses?
And one can be a non believer or believer, like with Saul or later became known as St Paul?

Death is only the physical agony we must all go through, there is no such thing as death is there? Little St Therese my favorite St.

Sorry if my opinion reply is confusing or poorly communicated. Peace

 

[OriginalGabrielof12]

How does a >>Infinite Eternal Spiritual Being, daily, weekly? transform himself, during Holy Communion>> back into flesh and blood? That is my question and respectfully confused on

Hi rose; I believe some clarification is in order here;
The Father does not proceed. The Father sends the Son or the Son proceeds from the Father and the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Son in One spiration of Love.
When Jesus instituted the Eucharist at the Last Supper, This act of God is done Once and for all ages. The new and everlasting covenant established by the Word of God incarnate is never repeated, because the act of God in Eucharista is an eternal Presence, when God makes His presence known in the celebrated Mass in Eucharist. In every age since the Last Supper, it is the same Last Supper being celebrated in every age. The Eucharist is not a different Eucharist from the Last Supper, God does not change or “transform himself back into flesh and blood”.
When we celebrate a valid Eucharist within a valid Mass as Jesus commanded His Church “to do this in remembrance of me”, this same Jesus body, blood, soul and divinity presence is made known to us who believe and follow Jesus commands and Word, while at the Words of Consecration instituted by Jesus Christ Himself, that the body, blood, soul and divinity of Jesus Christ is eternal becomes present in Eucharist in space and time. In other words the Eucharist we celebrate today is the same Eucharist Jesus instituted at the Last Supper, thus Zakar or Anamesis = (rememberance) takes place in space and time in all ages.
A good biblical example is when Jesus celebrated the breaking of bread on the road to Emmaus, Jesus presence was made known to the disciples in the breaking of bread. This same Jesus presence is made known to all of us in every age in the breaking of bread or Eucharist.

 

[rose321]

Hi rose; I believe some clarification is in order here;

Respectfully Thank you, for taking the time to answer my question!

 

[patti]

This is the best, simplest, direct answer I have ever heard. Many thanks Thom18!