Little beginner article on "existence of God"

[Reformed_Rob]

Hi!

In PRE class tonight, a student asked a totally off the topic question. Actually, a great question. But not one that I felt like I could satisfy him (he’s very thoughtful) with a quick 2 or 3 intro into answering his question.

He’s a 7th grader, and his question was about kids at school (hypothetically) who say how can you know for sure that God exists and all that since we can’t see Him?

Myself and the other instructor tried to help him have a reasonable reply to such questions. **

But is there a little something by a Catholic author that I could give or use to help him get an intro into this topic??

**My thought is this is an opportunity to get across that we believe things by faith, but that faith is not contrary to reason. So it’s reasonable and makes sense to believe in God.

But you know, in 7th grade terminology and examples.

 

[R_McGeddon]

I think the best thing to say is that there are people in the world that believe in God and there people that don’t. Children should be given all the information from both sides and be allowed to make up their own minds. To only give one side is brainwashing, which ever side that is.

 

[Verbum]

Hi Bob,

Faith is belief in God. You cannot invoke faith to state the existence of God.

I think the easiest thing for children to understand is the concept of going back to the First Cause. How did I come about? From my parents. And how did they come about? From their parents and so forth right to the first man and woman. How did they come about? Well, even if you believe in evolution, there has to come a time when Somebody made something come about and this Somebody did not come from anyone. The One who did not come from anyone and who made everything come about is called God.

Verbum

 

[forthright]

Point out all the unseen things that they already believe in. I believe that when it’s midnight here it’s noon in China, but I’ve never seen it. I believe in air and gravity. I can’t see them, but I can see them working in the world. I’ve never seen any of the planets of the solar system, but I believe they’re there because of the testimony of other witnesses.

Almost everything we learn, we learn second-hand. From our language and customs to history to math and science. Once people realize that, I think they have one of two choices. Either freak out entirely because they no longer know for certain anything they thought they knew, or realize that learning about God from others is really not such a big problem.

 

[Reformed_Rob]

Hi Bob,

Faith is belief in God. You cannot invoke faith to state the existence of God.

Verbum

Thanks, yeah, what I meant, which I tried to word it in a way that a Catholic would understand what I meant, but what I meant is that our faith is not contrary to reason.

Reason when understood just WHO this God we believe in actually is. And that the most reasonable thing to do is to believe in Him.

A person is, according to God, a fool if they say in their heart, “there is no God.” A person commits suicide of their rational intellect the moment they give in to agnosticism or atheism.

That’s more what I was meaning. I didn’t mean to sound like I was just saying “faithfaithfaith.”

The Church taught in Vatican I that we can know about God without faith just by the use of unaided reason.

Sorry I went on too much about that, I just mean to say that I agree with you and thanks for pointing that out.

 

[ribozyme]

Thanks, yeah, what I meant, which I tried to word it in a way that a Catholic would understand what I meant, but what I meant is that our faith is not contrary to reason.

Reason when understood just WHO this God we believe in actually is. And that the most reasonable thing to do is to believe in Him.

A person is, according to God, a fool if they say in their heart, “there is no God.” A person commits suicide of their rational intellect the moment they give in to agnosticism or atheism.

Interesting, care to elaborate about this point. I do not see how disbelieve is intellectual suicide.

The Church taught in Vatican I that we can know about God without faith just by the use of unaided reason.

That is wrong, if one uses rational inquiry, they will find it difficult to reconcile the existence of God. The problem of evil is one good reason for this.

 

[Reformed_Rob]

I think the best thing to say is that there are people in the world that believe in God and there people that don’t. Children should be given all the information from both sides and be allowed to make up their own minds. To only give one side is brainwashing, which ever side that is.

I wouldn’t be doing my JOB that I’m responsible for if I just left it at that.

What kind of Catholic Catechist would I be?

Maybe that’s ok for an existentialist, but it doesn’t work for those of us who believe there is profound meaning to life if we live it in light of truth.

But thanks for your comment.

 

[Reformed_Rob]

Interesting, care to elaborate about this point. I do not see how disbelieve is intellectual suicide.

That is wrong, if one uses rational inquiry, they will find it difficult to reconcile the existence of God. The problem of evil is one good reason for this.

Ribozyme,

I’ll attempt a brief answer.

But first, did you say “evil?” If a person does not believe in God, then pray tell, what is the “Problem” with “evil”?? Because, after all, what IS “evil?” The “Problem of Evil” is actually, when considered from a Christian viewpoint, is a “Problem” for those who don’t believe in God. It’s no problem for me at all, I’m a Christian. What’s the problem with an all good all loving God and people being bad to eachother?

Ok, to hopefully address your overall question.

You’re playing a game of Pokemon. Or Magic, or whatever, and your buddies playing decide they will not follow the rules for strikes and turns and such. They just make it up to benefit their game.

But you want to follow the rules of the game. The stuff they’re trying to do, you can’t take it serious because it makes no sense. They didn’t invent the game, or come up with the rules. So who are they to just make it up as they go along?

Who is going to experience the game to the fullest? The people who follow the rules, or the people that make up their own rules?

Belief in God is sort of like that…in that, if you don’t believe in the Creator of our world, then there is no rational basis for saying that someone else is or is not following the rules.

If you can’t even say what the rules of the game are, then how can you even play the game?

To really say and mean “I don’t believe in God” then they put themselves on an infinitely tall ladder trying to climb out of a bottomless pit. There’s no base for the ladder to rest on, so there is no way out on that ladder.

Hope that helps, I threw a few different things out, feel free to ask about any one thing!

 

[ribozyme]

Ribozyme,

I’ll attempt a brief answer.

But first, did you say “evil?” If a person does not believe in God, then pray tell, what is the “Problem” with “evil”?? Because, after all, what IS “evil?” The “Problem of Evil” is actually, when considered from a Christian viewpoint, is a “Problem” for those who don’t believe in God. It’s no problem for me at all, I’m a Christian. What’s the problem with an all good all loving God and people being bad to eachother?

Ok, to hopefully address your overall question.

You’re playing a game of Pokemon. Or Magic, or whatever, and your buddies playing decide they will not follow the rules for strikes and turns and such. They just make it up to benefit their game.

But you want to follow the rules of the game. The stuff they’re trying to do, you can’t take it serious because it makes no sense. They didn’t invent the game, or come up with the rules. So who are they to just make it up as they go along?

Who is going to experience the game to the fullest? The people who follow the rules, or the people that make up their own rules?

Belief in God is sort of like that…in that, if you don’t believe in the Creator of our world, then there is no rational basis for saying that someone else is or is not following the rules.

If you can’t even say what the rules of the game are, then how can you even play the game?

To really say and mean “I don’t believe in God” then they put themselves on an infinitely tall ladder trying to climb out of a bottomless pit. There’s no base for the ladder to rest on, so there is no way out on that ladder.

Hope that helps, I threw a few different things out, feel free to ask about any one thing!

You game analogy did not make any sense to me.

Regarding evil, I think it is best that I replace the word “evil” with “human suffering”. One cannot deny that human suffering exists and I consider evil and human suffering to be synonymous terms.

 

[R_McGeddon]

I wouldn’t be doing my JOB that I’m responsible for if I just left it at that.

What kind of Catholic Catechist would I be?

Maybe that’s ok for an existentialist, but it doesn’t work for those of us who believe there is profound meaning to life if we live it in light of truth.

But thanks for your comment.

If you’re going to tell impressionable young children that God exists and you should have faith, while withhold the information about all opposing opinions, then it is purely brainwashing.

It is as bad as an atheist, only telling those same children the opposite viewpoint.

 

[Sugar_Ray]

Reformed Rob:

I also teach 7th grade and had similar discussions a few weeks ago.

I taught my kids about the complexity of the universe, about the thousands of factors that need to be in place for us to exist, ie: the sun, the earth’s distance from the sun, the earth’s atmosphere which protects us from the sun’s harmful rays but allows in the warmth we need, our gravitational pull - which is just right.

I then mentioned what the earth provides us that we need to exist - air, and an abundance of water, as well as animals and vegetables and fruit all of which provide us with the exact vitamins and nutrients our bodies need.

Then I spoke about our bodies and the complexity of our brains, and our DNA cells - which are jam packed with information in a precise pattern, I spoke about how the pancreas works and what an amazing piece of engineering it is, and our eyeballs which utilize countless chemical actions and reactions in order for us to see.

Then I asked who thinks all this came about by accident?

And yes Rob when you put it that way they will see that Faith is not required to believe that there is a creator. All that is required is an honest open mind regarding the world around us.

Hope this helps and best of luck.

 

[ribozyme]

Reformed Rob:

I also teach 7th grade and had similar discussions a few weeks ago.

I taught my kids about the complexity of the universe, about the thousands of factors that need to be in place for us to exist, ie: the sun, the earth’s distance from the sun, the earth’s atmosphere which protects us from the sun’s harmful rays but allows in the warmth we need, our gravitational pull - which is just right.

I then mentioned what the earth provides us that we need to exist - air, and an abundance of water, as well as animals and vegetables and fruit all of which provide us with the exact vitamins and nutrients our bodies need.

Then I spoke about our bodies and the complexity of our brains, and our DNA cells - which are jam packed with information in a precise pattern, I spoke about how the pancreas works and what an amazing piece of engineering it is, and our eyeballs which utilize countless chemical actions and reactions in order for us to see.

Then I asked who thinks all this came about by accident?

And yes Rob when you put it that way they will see that Faith is not required to believe that there is a creator. All that is required is an honest open mind regarding the world around us.

Hope this helps and best of luck.

You should read about the anthropic principle as it provides an natural explanation for this.

 

[Sugar_Ray]

A natural explanation would not remove God as the engineer behind the process.

 

[Nullasalus]

A natural explanation would not remove God as the engineer behind the process.

Agreed. And I do like the summary you gave as well - the state of creation, even ‘fallen/imperfect’, tends to have me expecting intent on a grand scale behind this universe. Or what we know of it.

 

[R_McGeddon]

A natural explanation would not remove God as the engineer behind the process.

Neither would it place God in that same position.

 

[Sugar_Ray]

RMcgeddon:

It is impossible to prove or disprove, in an empiracle sense, God’s hand in creation.

However when examining the complexity of the universe, our enviroment and ourselves and then combining that with the God’s Grace guiding us in our beliefs we arrive at Christianity.

It is faith and reason.

 

[R_McGeddon]

R McGeddon:

It is impossible to prove or disprove, in an empiracle sense, God’s hand in creation.

It is impossible in ANY way.

However when examining the complexity of the universe, our enviroment and ourselves and then combining that with the God’s Grace guiding us in our beliefs we arrive at Christianity.

This statement could be made by any other religion to back up their faith. It also pre-supposes the existence of a god and is therefore biased.

It is faith and reason.

It is only faith, nothing to do with reason.

 

[ribozyme]

Reformed Rob:

I also teach 7th grade and had similar discussions a few weeks ago.

I taught my kids about the complexity of the universe, about the thousands of factors that need to be in place for us to exist, ie: the sun, the earth’s distance from the sun, the earth’s atmosphere which protects us from the sun’s harmful rays but allows in the warmth we need, our gravitational pull - which is just right.

I then mentioned what the earth provides us that we need to exist - air, and an abundance of water, as well as animals and vegetables and fruit all of which provide us with the exact vitamins and nutrients our bodies need.

Then I spoke about our bodies and the complexity of our brains, and our DNA cells - which are jam packed with information in a precise pattern, I spoke about how the pancreas works and what an amazing piece of engineering it is, and our eyeballs which utilize countless chemical actions and reactions in order for us to see.

Then I asked who thinks all this came about by accident?

Gee, did you tell them about Darwinian evolution? Darwinian evolution has the power of producing complex structures that have the appearance of design in a stochastic process. For an example, visit the link in my signature (don’t click on the Dragonite, unless you want to know what

Were you able to support your statements from secular literature, not from Christian apologetics. I often support my statements on this forum (regarding science) for peer-reviewed journals or arXiv preprints.

 

[Sugar_Ray]

Yes, I did explain evolution to them.

I explained that God may have used evolution as a tool within his creation plan. Evolution and science and reason and your peer reviewed journals are no threat to Christianity and I let them know they should explore the scientific evidence for themselves to determine their own position on evolution.

I have read that Einstein, though not a religous man, acknowledged that the composition of the universe indicated a creator. It is perfectly reasonable for a person to come to this conclusion by examining the world around them. You may disagree but it is a reasonable and defensible position.

When you combine this kind of reason with faith (a gift of God’s grace) you end up with a Catholic.
.

 

[Reformed_Rob]

Gee, did you tell them about Darwinian evolution? Darwinian evolution has the power of producing complex structures that have the appearance of design in a stochastic process.

Were you able to support your statements from secular literature, not from Christian apologetics. I often support my statements on this forum (regarding science) for peer-reviewed journals or arXiv preprints.

Darwin is outdated. We know a lot more now then they did back then about science and biology. Now there’s “neo-Darwinianism.” and probably more newer theories since when I was halfway interested in that stuff. I would suggest you let Darwin’s stuff collect dust as a reference material from the 19th century.

But more relevant, why is it that we have to use “secular sources?” Why can’t a person use well respected Christian scientists, zoologists, anthropologists, etc and quote their work?

Perhaps we aren’t the only biased people here with an agenda to push.