Little Old Nuns - Scare the Vatican?

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Man are you kidding me? Almost every topic you start is like bate to trap the rest of us in topics that most of us here are against. Not even going to bother,.
 
Rockie01 said:
This is not a new issue. I am on my second career and attend a Catholic University. I was invited to a women’s conference on campus to hear a “great speaker” none other than Sr. Joan Chittester, the great “questioner” or modern day female version of Socrates? Before the conference there was a “pre-conference”. There I witnessed a deep dissatisfaction with the Catholic Church’s hierarchy and practices. The women religious do in fact feel as though they are not appreciated and some of their goals are indeed to change the Catholic Church. They expressed a desire to be priests, desire to be heard, desire to be in charge, desire to be out from under the vatican’s thumb. They do feel oppressed and silenced. I was agast. I was asked questions about my faith and what I thought about women becoming priests, and I answered something to the effect of women’s role as significant and one among other things–nurturer and necessary to the church. That women are indeed valuable and worthy of appreciation, but… the priesthood has been deemed solely for men. I was not allowed to participate in any more dialogue, I was not invited to attend the actual conference. As I learned more about Sr. Chittester, I would not have attended the conference anyway. The sisters at this university and across the city (not all but many) do not wear religious vestments. They wear civilian clothing, make-up and jewelry. During 2008, the only presidential candidate represented by campaign posters and life-size pictures was then president elect Obama, knowing B Obama’s stance on abortion and pro-choice. I was appalled! In a nutshell there seems to be a growing number of Chittester followers, one of the requisite readings for young religious entering the order, and sisters in general in the area is Joan Chittester’s book on questioning. I was a fallen away Catholic and returned about 20 years ago. I see more clearly the structure of the Catholic Church and how women do have a role, and are needed to fulfill the needs of the Catholic Church. If men are treating the women in a degrading manner, that is not “the church”. I asked a convert one day, why do you want to change the Catholic Church to bow to your whims? The episcopalian religion already has female priests, one gay priest that I know of and they are almost identical to the Catholic Church, why not go there instead of converting to Catholicism and immediately start to chip away at a 2000+ year old dynamic? I stated that I did not believe she understood what Catholicism was and that perhaps she should reexamine her conscious. She was a very new convert who entered the religious order, when I met her she was in jeans and a t-shirt, with a simple name tag which she referred to as her “habit”, however she was being heavily indoctrinated into Chittester’s philosophy of questioning and demanding women be allowed to be priests. I think women religious need to have a dialogue and the men should listen to them and put their hearts at ease. It’s easy to fall victim to people like Chittester who is a skilled manipulator and a religious herself. If only the vatican would silence her, she has collected quite a few followers and she’s done a lot of damage. As a woman and mother, I am saddened to see this huge breakdown of the beautiful religious life they have chosen and feel burdened with. If that’s not enough, some of the franciscan brothers are just as radicalized as the sisters. Some of the things I’ve heard from their very mouths make me shudder. I wish the arch diocese would reach out to them and have a dialogue and work on rebuilding the Catholic faith among the religious.
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In the 1500s these people left the Church and were called Protestants. Today, these people remain within our Church for the main purpose of destroying it. But, they will not succeed. Jesus says that 'The Gates of Hell will not prevail" against His Church. Peace of Christ be with you.🙂
 
BenedictFTW said:
In the 1500s these people left the Church and were called Protestants. Today, these people remain within our Church for the main purpose of destroying it. But, they will not succeed. Jesus says that 'The Gates of Hell will not prevail" against His Church. Peace of Christ be with you.🙂
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Not everyone who is wrong is wrong because of malevolent intent, and that includes Protestants.

Might I suggest that accusing those who are wrong of wanting to “destroy” the Church is unhelpful towards engaging them in meaningful dialogue, and is likely to further entrench stubborn adherence to erroneous positions?
 
Iron_Donkey said:
The Church says gay marriage and the ordination of women are absolutely impossible. If you want to disagree, well I suppose you can. But your beliefs are no longer Catholic if you do so. And furthermore, since the Catholic beliefs are the correct ones, you are simply wrong.
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👍
 
OraLabora said:
Not everyone who is wrong is wrong because of malevolent intent, and that includes Protestants.

Might I suggest that accusing those who are wrong of wanting to “destroy” the Church is unhelpful towards engaging them in meaningful dialogue, and is likely to further entrench stubborn adherence to erroneous positions?
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Those who defy the teachings of our Church and directions from our Pope are usually quite obstinate and defy any ‘meaningful dialogue’. There is usually disobedience and sins of the flesh at the base of this defiance.

I am merely learning the lessons of history. Read about the Reformation, Martin Luther, John Calvin and other heretics who were determined to undermine the Pope’s authority. The same thing applies today, only nowadays, they remain as Catholics in name only. But, I have total faith that the Truth, handed down to us by Jesus Christ, will prevail against all heresies.

Those who defy the teachings of our Church and repent usually become extremely devout Catholics. But they need to be taught the error of their ways. Soft-soaping them is not a charity to them or to the Church. Pax
 
Ohana said:
Have you not read the posts on this forum that are just waiting for us “hippies of the 70’s, and babyboomers to die off” so that the church can return unfettered by our sensibilities to the grace of the 40’s and 50’s.

Having lived through the 40’s and 50’s, I know it was not so grace filled. But as they say . . whatever.
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I do not advocate a return to the 40s or 50s. I advocate a return to clear, orthodox teachings that connect back through the centuries to the Deposit of Faith entrusted to the apostles.
It distresses me that the good nuns who have had the temerity to think and act according to their corporate conscience are under attack,
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They teach and espouse heresy! Please explain how that makes them “good” nuns, and how acting “according to conscience” somehow trumps truth and the duty to teach truth in order to save souls. Let’s look at the big picture. The teaching of heresy leads away from the truth, away from freedom, away from God. It leads to the loss of salvation.
while orders of dissident priests are invited back.
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Why do you consider these nuns to be good and the priests to be dissident? The bias of that statement is so glaring.
We need to pray for our Bishops, that the Holy Spirit will guide them is right paths.
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Amen.
  • PAX
 
Jesus says “By their fruits, you will know them!” Jesus expects us to make judgements as to what motives people may have for defying the Pope. I, for one, would not entertain anybody who defies our wonderful Pope Benedict XVI or any of the teachings held within the deposit of faith. Faithful Catholics must use good judgement in order to defend our faith. Knowledge of the faith is essential and lessons can be learned from history. The same heresies appear again and again. Pax
 
BenedictFTW said:
Jesus says “By their fruits, you will know them!” Jesus expects us to make judgements as to what motives people may have for defying the Pope. I, for one, would not entertain anybody who defies our wonderful Pope Benedict XVI or any of the teachings held within the deposit of faith. Faithful Catholics must use good judgement in order to defend our faith. Knowledge of the faith is essential and lessons can be learned from history. The same heresies appear again and again. Pax
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Amen, Brother or Sister! Keep the good posts coming!
 
trickster said:
…(the women who taught us our catechism, etc.)…
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Maybe that’s the problem…some of these women taught things that are plain WRONG. Gay marriage, women priests, etc are not matters that are open for debate. The Catholic Church will never send you a ballot to vote on these issues…it doesn’t work that way, Bruce.
 
The teachings of the Church are freely available and most of these renegade nuns and priests are better catechised than the lay Catholic. If the Pope cannot get them to obey the doctrines of our Church, would these nuns and priests listen to us? I think not! We are not expected to argue, but to keep the Peace of Christ in our hearts.

I think they are best avoided; I certainly would because I have a strong feeling they would not wish to engage in dialogue with a faithful Catholic who loves our Pope the way I do.🙂
 
Geez, I must live a sheltered life. I have personally never heard a nun or pastoral associate or priest preach that gay marriage or contraception should be acceptable to Church teaching. I have heard many who disagree with how the Church approaches these issues in ministry.

In the vast majority of cases, people who disagree with the Church do not do so maliciously. They may be prideful, or lack commitment, or understanding. We need to keep the lines of communication open. Heavy condemnation and talk of knowing the truth is not going to get it done (even though you may know the truth).
 
We’re engaging in dialogue right here on this forum aren’t we? :confused: What you seem to be implying is not dialogue, but acceptance of heretical positions as different in a politically correct way…as in “different but still equally valid”. Heresies aren’t equally valid though. They’re wrong.

There’s nothing wrong with faithful Catholics sharing the Truth and saying that the Truth is non-negotiable. Pointing out facts is a good thing. It should also be done charitably.
 
trickster said:
The Vatican recently “cracked down” on women religious orders, citing “radical feminism” as one of the concerns!
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Not true at all. The Vatican’s “crack down” statement was directed at the LCWR **leadership conference **- an umbrella organization that exists explicitly under Church authority.

It wasn’t “radical feminism” that was critcized. It was the LCWR’s involvement with questionable organizations some of which are radical feminist by definition.
Is the church patriarchial? Yes! Are there aspects within administrative decisions and power relationships where bishops have been plain jerks with respect to women clergy?
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No. There are not women clergy in the Catholic Church. The Church has been very forceful in denouncing women who pretend to be clergy but nothing even close to being “plain jerks”.
The idea that the feminine aspects of God have been underestimated not by Catholic teaching but by the deliverers of the Catholic message is undeniable,
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Undeniable? I would deny it.
so why would the Vatican display such oppressive measures as to tell women religious (the women who taught us our catechism, etc.) to fall into line with a power relationship detrimental to women?
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  1. that’s not what the LCWR was told to do 2) there is nothing oppressive or detrimental to women about authentic Church teaching.
The Vatican is simply asking Catholics to act like Catholics - especially those in positions where they engender more visability and respect.
What happened to the spirit of the 60’s when we talked about these things…?
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That same “spirit of the 60s” is what caused a lot of the confusion and drift of today’s Catholics.
The church cannot “shut the people” up anymore about such things as gay marriages, women priests and so forth
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,

Nor does she want to. The Church has welcomed the dialogue and stands ever-ready to explain and defend the Church’s’ teaching. But these women are supposed to be part of the Church - they should be explaining and defending Chuch teaching too.
she can simply and humbly state her position as a global community of faith and start having faith in God’s gift to all of us - our rationale, brains and openess to the Spirit of God…thoughts?
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She does. Sometimes simply, sometimes with more detail. Always humbly and always respectful of intellect, free will AND objective truth. Nothing about the statement to the LCWR says otherwise.
 
mgoforth said:
We’re engaging in dialogue right here on this forum aren’t we? :confused: What you seem to be implying is not dialogue, but acceptance of heretical positions as different in a politically correct way…as in “different but still equally valid”. Heresies aren’t equally valid though. They’re wrong.

There’s nothing wrong with faithful Catholics sharing the Truth and saying that the Truth is non-negotiable. Pointing out facts is a good thing. It should also be done charitably.
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I see nothing in what he wrote to imply that he is promoting acceptance. It is clear that the opinions of the “rebels” is wrong. What is not clear is that malevolence or willful evil is behind the error.

Removing the presumption of malevolence from a robust defense of the Faith, IMHO, makes the discussion more respectful and the message more credible.

Otherwise the risk is as is so often the case here, shouting past each other.

We also have to be cognizant of the fact that in the face of stubborn rebellion (which can equally be said to apply to Lefebvristes as to Joan Chittister), often those we are trying to reach are not those in error (who may never give up) but those whose consciences are not yet fully formed and are open to persuasive argument.

That argument, which fundamentally should be rooted in love and charity even for our enemies, is far more credible when delivered by those who walk the talk as it were.
 
clem456 said:
Geez, I must live a sheltered life. I have personally never heard a nun or pastoral associate or priest preach that gay marriage or contraception should be acceptable to Church teaching. I have heard many who disagree with how the Church approaches these issues in ministry.

In the vast majority of cases, people who disagree with the Church do not do so maliciously. They may be prideful, or lack commitment, or understanding. We need to keep the lines of communication open. Heavy condemnation and talk of knowing the truth is not going to get it done (even though you may know the truth).
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A picture is worth a thousand words.

 
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