Little Old Nuns - Scare the Vatican?

[trickster]

Why is this posted in “Traditional Catholicism?”

Why not? Arent’ Vatican relations with religious congregations a traditional thing; seems to me that nuns have always been problematic to bishops…nothing new under the sun here my friend…and it’s pretty traditional dynamics over our whole history…

Cheerz

Bruce
Trickster

 

[trickster]

Trickster always like to stir the pot. I think he enjoys being the Pan of the Traditional Catholicism forum.

Thank you TrueLight, I am honoured I got to look up who Pan was too…always enjoy your thoughts and commentary…keep it up…cheerz.

Bruce
Trickste

 

[trickster]

This is not about male supremacy. Please let us not derail this into a thread on whether men are superior to women.

This is about a body of Religious, who are supposed to be exemplary, promulgating doctrine that is contrary to what Holy Mother Church teaches. It’s about Orthodoxy.

Do not allow the Enemy to muddle the issue and create resentment instead of seeing with clear eyes what this is about.

I like your point True Light, now I want to add to it by challenging the respondents to identify what exactly these nuns are teachign that is such a threat to orthodoxy…I read in the article a bit about “radical feminism” which with everything I the nuns are not promoting radical feminism promoted by lesbian academics (theoretically interesting arguments I must add), but they are “radical” feminists in the sense of “radical” or root…going to the root of a problem…and yes patriarchy is I think root of the problem…but what other orthodoxy things are these nuns threatening and why is the church attackign them on this?

Bruce
Trickster.

 

[trickster]

The teachings of the Church are freely available and most of these renegade nuns and priests are better catechised than the lay Catholic. If the Pope cannot get them to obey the doctrines of our Church, would these nuns and priests listen to us? I think not! We are not expected to argue, but to keep the Peace of Christ in our hearts.

I think they are best avoided; I certainly would because I have a strong feeling they would not wish to engage in dialogue with a faithful Catholic who loves our Pope the way I do.

Benedict, be specific, what doctrines are they disobeying that the Pope is failing in geting them to obey? What threate to orthodoxy are they posing to garner the attention of the Vatican? They make a heck of a lot of sense for a modern day world!

Cheerz

Bruce

 

[trickster]

Geez, I must live a sheltered life. I have personally never heard a nun or pastoral associate or priest preach that gay marriage or contraception should be acceptable to Church teaching. I have heard many who disagree with how the Church approaches these issues in ministry.

In the vast majority of cases, people who disagree with the Church do not do so maliciously. They may be prideful, or lack commitment, or understanding. We need to keep the lines of communication open. Heavy condemnation and talk of knowing the truth is not going to get it done (even though you may know the truth).

AMEN!

Bruce
Trickster

 

[trickster]

My thought is that the title of your thread is misleading.

Nuns arent what the Vatican are concerned about.

That’s my question! Thanks Marie…what is it that the Vatican is concerned about here? The press is putting it like an attack on the religious…what are the nuns (if it is the renigade nunes some CA posters have noted) are teaching or holding that is a threat to
orthodoxy…?

Bruce (trickste)

 

[Corki]

That’s my question! Thanks Marie…what is it that the Vatican is concerned about here? The press is putting it like an attack on the religious…what are the nuns (if it is the renigade nunes some CA posters have noted) are teaching or holding that is a threat to
orthodoxy…?

Bruce (trickste)

The Vatican is simply concerned that an organization that bears the Church’s stamp of approval is leading people astray rather than to the Church. The LCWR operates under Vatican approval. The Vatican has the right to express what that approval involves.

 

[TrueLight]

Thank you TrueLight, I am honoured I got to look up who Pan was too…always enjoy your thoughts and commentary…keep it up…cheerz.

Bruce
Trickste

You make it hard for me to stay annoyed with you and your posts for long.

You probably see it as you “challenging” us to think.

I maintain you are a troublemaker!

 

[JReducation]

This whole thing with the sisters is the silliest thing in the world. Allow me to share my observations.

1. There are too many cooks in the kitchen. Everyone wants to have an opinion and everyone thinks his opinion and his solutions are right. That’s part of the human condition, not much we can do there, right?
2. The document that came from the Vatican DID NOT attack any group of sisters. I’ve held it in my hands. The document clearly says that the Leadership Conference of Women Religious has to be fixed, because of the company it keeps. The document does not speak about the women religious in America.
3. The LCWR consists of approximately 60 to 100 sisters at any given time. There are thousands of sisters and nuns in the USA.
4. The document is asking that these 60 sisters who are responsible for the Conference of Women Religious do their job in a manner that is consistent with Catholic teaching and work with people who are on the same page as the Church. Not an unreasonable demand.
5. This sisters are not superiors to the sisters in the USA. The mission of a Conference for religious is to provide a means for the religious communities and the bishops to dialogue. It also provides a means for religious communities to cooperate with each other, rather than duplicate. Finally, it provides a means of offering opportunities for ongoing formation for all religious. The Conference has no authority in the religious communities. Each community has its own government.
6. Conferences for religious exist, because bishops have no authority over religious. There has to be a way for the two bodies to talk to each other. It’s much easier to speak with a few delegates elected by the larger group, than for several hundred bishops and several hundred religious superiors to try to have a conversation. That would be a nightmare.
7. The Church is not acting patriarchal or misogynistic. Every religious owes obedience to the Holy See. It just happens this in this dimension, the Holy See is masculine and in this case, it’s the Conference for Women Religious that has supported and allowed some unorthodox people to present at its gatherings and whatever else they’ve done. If it had been the Conference for Religious Men, then that group would be receiving a visit from the Vatican. But it’s not them. They’re doing fine.
8. Finally, I don’t know if the laity knows this or not, but these Conferences have NO AUTHORITY over religious. All authority over religious is vested in the superior and the Holy See. They are canonically erected tools, not governing bodies. It is incorrect to think that because the Vatican has sent a representative to help the tool, that the Vatican believes that the carpenter who uses the tool is damaged. He can be. But the Vatican has not said that. It has said that the tool is damaged. It has to be fixed. Some people are not going to like it. Oh well . . . obedience is never easy. I don’t remember ever liking when my mother sent me to bed or demanded that I clean my room, but I sure as heck miss my mom.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV

 

[YoungTradCath]

Yes born Catholic…no I don’t think the Church is oppressive at all! I am worried that it may be setting the direction towards becoming suppressive…when JP II ends discussions and says we can’t talk about things anymore…well that is a dangerous thing to the evolution of revelation which is also informed not by old saint writings of 200-1000’s of years ago but by the Spirits works on our life today… I don’t think that my challenging spirit should be interpreted as feeling oppressed by any means…it is exactly cause the church was not oppressive after Vatican II that I am totally comfortable in questioning, challenging, and even offering alternative ideas and proposals with respect to theolog…as I know that I usually will get a loving response that challenges me back and points out my argument’s weaknesses and therefore facilitating a stronger Catholicism within me…hope that explains me a bit better to you…

Bruce
Trickster

So, forty years of discussion isn’t enough? Discussion, IMHO, is a code word for, “Keep them distracted so I can go do whatever I want.”

 

[trickster]

The Vatican is simply concerned that an organization that bears the Church’s stamp of approval is leading people astray rather than to the Church. The LCWR operates under Vatican approval. The Vatican has the right to express what that approval involves.

ABSOLUTELY Corki…my question is “what exactly” is the Vatican concerned about? The Vatican wanting to ensure that the work of the nuns reflect the teachings of the church is fair and right, however, no one is being very specific (and that may also because I haven’t had time to read or research everything being said yet)…on what exactly is so threatening about these women religious congregations…

That’s why I posted this to see what is exciting the old boys in red dresses at the Vatican…

Bruce
Trickster

 

[trickster]

JR, now thats more like it…when you say the following

***3. The LCWR consists of approximately 60 to 100 sisters at any given time. There are thousands of sisters and nuns in the USA.

1. The document is asking that these 60 sisters who are responsible for the Conference of Women Religious do their job in a manner that is consistent with Catholic teaching and work with people who are on the same page as the Church. Not an unreasonable demand. ***

This certainly puts things into perspective…all I am asking is what is so threatening about this group of 60 -100 nuns? What exactly are they doing or teaching - other than speculating on potential female traits of god(ess)? How are they threatening to the Vatican? or church teaching (which for me is the same thing)? Can you give me something concrete?

Cheerz

Bruce
Trickster

 

[trickster]

So, forty years of discussion isn’t enough? Discussion, IMHO, is a code word for, “Keep them distracted so I can go do whatever I want.”

Don’t know what IMHO stands for? But yeah 40 years is a second in the history of the church…look how much the church has grown and speaks to today’s needs? The growth of the social teachings - not that the teachings are new - but the compendium is informed by these past f40 years of discussion, liberation and reconciliation…I think that is good…

Who said “keep them distracted”…is that your saying? Just curious…

 

[trickster]

Sorry Jharke, what reference? You forgot to put a quote so I know which time I was disrespectful…I assume you are equally critical to those who refer to nuns who think as “rennegade nuns”…

Trickster
Bruce

 

[trickster]

It’s too bad you don’t want to play. I like what you are getting at because you are absolutely right. If you are commenting on the “men in red dresses”…I apologize if it offended you…I was on a roll and well “things are said”. However, those on the right or conservative side (who claim a monopoly on church orthodoxy) have down graded these women who have given their lives to the service of the Lord as best understood in their conscience to “rennegade nuns”…is that respectful?

I almost walked out of a sermon where this priest ridiculed women on the issue of women priests and asked what would we call women priests if they become pope - Holy Mother - …you see clergy are also disrespectful of those who may be on the margins of our community with respect to theological reflections or social action.

We divide our community (and I include myself as an offender in this respect) when we objectivy those with other opinions (in this case extreme conservative Catholics) by making fun of them…and those participating in Catholic Answers can hardly claim to a 100% record of kind comments to progressive or liberal brothers and sisters in our faith community…

Do you know otherwise? Feel free to share thoughts…

Bruce
Trickster

 

[trickster]

Pray tell, do any young adult Catholics share your revolutionary spirit regarding the practices of the Catholic Church? With that in mind, the changes you desire are positions found among a minority of religious and lay Catholics at odds with the orthodox faith and living in a world that seems to desire nothing but to recapture the false spirit of the Second Vatican Council in the 21st century.

What changes did I stated that I desired? Revolutionary - the idea of dialogue, conversation and openess to new possiblities within the Catholic Church? No that is not revolutionary. that is Catholic!

trickster Bruce

 

[trickster]

The Leadership Conference of Women Religious (LCWR) is an association of the leaders of congregations of Catholic women religious in the United States. The conference has more than 1500 members, who represent more than 80 percent of the 57,000 women religious in the United States. Founded in 1956, the conference assists its members to collaboratively carry out their service of leadership to further the mission of the Gospel in today’s world.
.

Take a look at their website to get a sense of the kind of work that they do…I think that would also be helpful to the conversation. These are a dynamic group of ladies in the service of the Lord.

Trickster
Bruce

 

[trickster]

That definition, above, is from wiki?
Oy.

But to sum up one point…male supremacy DOES oppress women if it means that a man gets a job/position that a woman is better qualified for and yearns to do-- but the set-up does not “permit” her to do it only because of her gender.

I surely trust a smart religious institution like the Catholic Church would want a person to fight for their human rights and not be taken advantage of or oppressed?

Yeah, I suppose I could of found a better definition of radical feminism too…yours works just fine!

I will look forward to the responses you get on your thoughts…but be prepared for a very conservative viewpoint on Catholic Answers…that is I love about it is that there are conservative Catholics who can challenge my views and therefore help me see weaknesses in my arguements and thus help me improve what I am thinking and how I process and live my Catholic faith…so hang in there…I’ll be watching closely…cheerz

Bruce
Trickster

 

[trickster]

ACU Health Center is not an “abortion facility” like the cutline says, but a place for all sorts of gynecological concerns, including pregnancy tests, gynecological check-ups, cancer tests, etc. I’d say wherever you took that pic from, the editor may have made the cutline purposely misleading?

It may be that these women/sisters are merely helping women get reproduction/gynecological help.

Thanks DaddyGirl for pointing that out…I am sure the picture was chosen to misrepresent the good works of many religious women orders who happen to be thinkers and challenge the patriarchial status quo in the church and its gender biased interpretations…good stuff.

Bruce
Trickster

 

[LilyM]

I don’t disrespect authorism at all…I “dissent”, “argue alternatives”, question, etc., and I have always recieved answers from the Church…at the end of the day, while we all have the freedom to question wtih creativity in our communion, we also need to accept the fact that the authoritarian nature of the church is necessary in order to keep us together…and I accept that otherwise I would not be Catholic…authoritarianism itself has to be used in a manner that builds the church too and not segmatizes (if that’s a word) the faith community…and many bishops and priests, etc., have abused the authority they have, and as we are not blind cult followers, we ought to take the words of our authorities very seriously, but also an understnading that they can be bias and subjective in their views too…

Bruce (Trickster).

And we all know what Jesus thought of those who dissented, questioned and challenged … ‘if they will not listen to the Church then treat them as an outcast and a heathen.’ Couldn’t have said it better or plainer myself.