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ImmaculataFides
Guest
Um, you’re kidding right?
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RogerDeCourcy
Guest
That is code for: “Amend your beliefs to a form I desire”.
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YoungTradCath
Guest
Why do some not want to admit that doing good work for people and being doctrinally orthodox are not mutually exclusive?
“You are not doctrinally orthodox,” IS NOT, “We hate you and the good work that you do.”
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RogerDeCourcy
Guest
Good point. The reverse is true too: ‘Doing good work for the poor’ and ‘Espousing corrosive heretical beliefs’ are not mutually exclusive either.Why do some not want to admit that doing good work for people and being doctrinally orthodox are not mutually exclusive?
“You are not doctrinally orthodox,” IS NOT, “We hate you and the good work that you do.”
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YoungTradCath
Guest
Nope!
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Brooklyn
Guest
[/QUOTE]This whole thing with the sisters is the silliest thing in the world. Allow me to share my observations.
Not quite correct. From the LCWR website:
The Leadership Conference of Women Religious (LCWR) is an association of the leaders of congregations of Catholic women religious in the United States. The conference has more than 1500 members, who represent more than 80 percent of the 57,000 women religious in the United States. Founded in 1956, the conference assists its members to collaboratively carry out their service of leadership to further the mission of the Gospel in today’s world.
Jeanine Gramick: co-foundress of
the homosexual, lesbian
activist organization
New Ways Ministry mentioned in
the Vatican document.
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agnes_therese
Guest
The ACU Health Center DOES perform abortions. It’s very clear on their website.
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agnes_therese
Guest
Why haven’t you read the report, since you’re so interested in this issue? It clearly states a number of valid concerns the Vatican has.
Perhaps that wouldn’t be nearly as much fun as insulting the Church?
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PA650
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I stated false spirit of Vatican II. I mentioned nothing else.
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BenedictFTW
Guest
What immediately comes to mind, without delving into the teachings per se, is that nuns are totally going against their own traditions by challenging the Pope in any way, shape or form. Nuns are traditionally those who take VOWS of obedience, poverty and chastity. Nuns sit quietly, out of the gaze of the world, and pray for sinners and apostates. To see a group of nuns in this situation seems surreal and certainly perverse.
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BenedictFTW
Guest
It is not Catholic - it is democratic. The Catholic Church is not a democracy. It is autocratic and dogmatic. There are democracies they are free to join. They know the nature of our Church, which is part of the Kingdom of Heaven. Theirs is a stance of disobedience and rebellion.
The Pope is the representative of our Leader - Jesus Christ. We must all obey. Obedience to the Will of God is one of the most important lessons of Our Blessed Lord. This is reflected in the form of His Church.
You also mention that these women (sisters) are progressive and liberal. They are not called to this. They are called to obey and behave with the decorum expected of religious people - in imitation of the saints who went before them.
The most famous person who demanded change the way these did, that I can think of, is Martin Luther. Look at the result!!!
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Rockie01
Guest
This is an interesting topic and it’s sad that it’s even a topic. I’ve seen the statement a few times that "the vatican isn’t concerned with nuns’. I don’t understand what that implies. However, it should be and addressing the LCWR indicates it is concerned about whatever they are doing or not doing. I have witnessed myself in a Catholic University setting the push for more freedom and superiority, abortion and the drive to let women become priests. I think that many of these women are a carry-over from the 70’s however they are also influential to the newbies that are entering the religious life. They have enormous visibility within the LCWR, look at Chittester, she’s done alot of damage. And what about Sr. Carol Keehan who helped President Obama push Obama Care? The radicalized nuns do not represent all women religious, but they sure do damage the image in the public eye. They are not representative of Catholic Values either, but most people won’t stop to research. Sr. Carol is in a powerful position and she has misused her position to further her own agenda whatever that agenda is all the while ignoring requests from bishops for her to clarify her actions.
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Corki
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This is a common misunderstanding of how the Church works. The Church hasn’t ever said we can’t talk about ANY topic. The concern is about how a topic is discussed - especially by those who have a special responsibility (priests, religious, those operating as “official” Church organizations, etc.). They can talk about every thing they want. They can even disagree. But the CAN’T present defined Church teaching as if it was just one option amoung many when it isn’t. That’s just lying and when it’s done publically, it can be dangerous to the faith of other Catholics. That’s what gets these groups in trouble.
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Corki
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Read the document. It is fairly specific. Don’t rely only on the commentary being floated in the media.
usccb.org/loader.cfm?csModule=security/getfile&pageid=55544
Here’s an excerpt that gives a good idea of what some of the concerns are:
When the LCWR takes a position that “protests” the Church’s positions, this is not a good sign.
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JReducation
Guest
Speculating on potential female traits of God is no small thing, considering that it’s contrary to Revelation. They have also sponsored ongoing formation or educational programs that have promoted:
Women’s ordination - which has been infallibly prohibited
Women’s choice to have an abortion - also infallibly prohibited
Same-sex marriage - infallibly prohibited
Contraception - morally prohibited
Expanding Christian Spirituality beyond Jesus - How can it be Christian?
Liturgical abuse - prohibited
Failure to teach Catholic doctrine to their people in formation - doesn’t make sense
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JReducation
Guest
Actually, the Vatican and agree on this, if you take my meaning from what I said. By too many cooks in the kitchen I’m referring to too many people trying to dictate and opine how to fix this problem. I’m not denying the problem. By silly, I’m referring to the assumptions that people make about several thousand sisters when the Vatican did not make such statements. The Vatican’s statement is about the LCWR. Not about every congregation in the USA. To imply that this is the case is silly. To imply that 80% of American sisters buy into this nonsense is also silly. It cannot be proven.
The LCWR alleges to represent 80% of American sisters. If they get one person from 80% of the religious congregations, they can pin up on their data that they have the support of 80% of those congregations. One person does not make up a congregation. When you go to their functions, you find 200 or 300 sisters out of several thousand and you’re not even sure how many of those who attended the function buy into what was presented. Therefore, the Vatican has to deal with the organization that sponsors these dissenting activities, not with the individual congregations. That’s what the Vatican is doing. The Vatican is not sounding the alarm that 80% of American sisters are a problem. The blogs are and forums like this are, not the Vatican. That’s the silly part. That what is being said on the internet and what is being said at the Vatican and at religious houses is not the same thing. No one is keeping secrets. It’s just that people are reading into things what is not there or that which is being misrepresented by the LCWR.
:
The Leadership Conference of Women Religious (LCWR) is an association of the leaders of congregations of Catholic women religious in the United States. The conference has more than 1500 members, who represent more than 80 percent of the 57,000 women religious in the United States. Founded in 1956, the conference assists its members to collaboratively carry out their service of leadership to further the mission of the Gospel in today’s world.
Jeanine Gramick: co-foundress of
the homosexual, lesbian
activist organization
New Ways Ministry mentioned in
the Vatican document.
I already spoke about the numbers issue above. This came out very clearly when they wrote their support for the HHR mandate. There was a rebuttal by the superiors saying that the support had come from 60 to 80 sisters who are on the leadership team of the LCWR, not from the Conference of Major Superiors who actually govern women religious and have the authority to speak for them. The LCWR is a medium for the sisters, not an authoritative voice to make decisions for the sisters. The press and the bloggers don’t understand the function of the Conference.
The Vatican understands it and is rightfully concerned, because of several reasons.
I don’t belong to the LCWR nor am I a member of the Holy See. I can only repeat what the Vatican says. If it says that the Conference has derailed, that’s all I can repeat. I can’t say that several thousand sisters have derailed, because I know that the Conference DOES NOT represent that many sisters. Just because someone signs a card and mails in $50 a year does not mean that the person is actively involved. The HHR issue proved it. When the superiors spoke they contradicted what the LCWR was saying about whom they represented.
- The LCWR is providing ongoing education and formation that is non compliant with Church teaching.
- The LCWR is speak against Church policy allegedly in the name of thousands of sisters, which misleads the faithful, like yourself in two ways. It leads one to believe that several thousand sisters are out to lunch and it leads us to believe that they have the authority to speak for the sisters, which they do not. This is hurtful to the community. We don’t disagree on that.
- The LCWR does not have the oversight of the bishops, so if the Vatican does not provide oversight, the LCWR or any other conference can derail, as the report suggests.
The problem with the Conference is not silly. What’s silly is the explosive interpretation that people are giving this, while the Vatican and the Conference of Major Superiors of Women Religious is being very calms and very intellectual about this. They’re saying to the LCWR, “Let’s help you get back on track.” That’s a good thing. I pray that everyone does get back on the same page for the good of God’s people.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, FFV
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Brooklyn
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clem456
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There are many many nuances that get lost sometimes in these discussions.
My sister in law is a member of Holy Family of Nazareth for 40 years now, she went to the convent at age 15. She has been a teacher, principal, couselor at a home for abused teens, foster mother for at-risk teen boys, nursing home activities director. She is the furthest thing from a traditional Catholic, is resentful of some authority and the Church hierarchy. By the same token she is not in agreement with the leftist leadership we are talking about. She would simply say she tries to love as Jesus Christ loves.
Over the years she has been at times treated badly by priests and others in male leadership, and also treated well by many others. The climate of alienation, disobedience, and sin do not simply appear out of thin air. It is surely chosen by the individual, but it is also encouraged when those -in authority- do not live authentic lives of obedience, but rather live lives of superficial observance, domination, hypocrisy. Many of us do not really understand authority and obedience the way Christ would live them. She will tell you that nuns and sisters are at times taken advantage of, taken for granted, abused by those in authority in the name of Church authority. We have discussed her resentment and rebellious attitude many times as my outlook is more traditional than hers, but she is formed in her perceptions. She has a lifetime of dealing with bishops, priests and pastors, for better or worse.
We always need to look in the mirror and live Catholic life authentically, not superficially, as we may be helping push others astray and away. As a wise priest told me once when we had a problem with the kids: If you want things to change around the house, change YOU, the rest will follow according to God’s will.
My sister in law is a member of Holy Family of Nazareth for 40 years now, she went to the convent at age 15. She has been a teacher, principal, couselor at a home for abused teens, foster mother for at-risk teen boys, nursing home activities director. She is the furthest thing from a traditional Catholic, is resentful of some authority and the Church hierarchy. By the same token she is not in agreement with the leftist leadership we are talking about. She would simply say she tries to love as Jesus Christ loves.
Over the years she has been at times treated badly by priests and others in male leadership, and also treated well by many others. The climate of alienation, disobedience, and sin do not simply appear out of thin air. It is surely chosen by the individual, but it is also encouraged when those -in authority- do not live authentic lives of obedience, but rather live lives of superficial observance, domination, hypocrisy. Many of us do not really understand authority and obedience the way Christ would live them. She will tell you that nuns and sisters are at times taken advantage of, taken for granted, abused by those in authority in the name of Church authority. We have discussed her resentment and rebellious attitude many times as my outlook is more traditional than hers, but she is formed in her perceptions. She has a lifetime of dealing with bishops, priests and pastors, for better or worse.
We always need to look in the mirror and live Catholic life authentically, not superficially, as we may be helping push others astray and away. As a wise priest told me once when we had a problem with the kids: If you want things to change around the house, change YOU, the rest will follow according to God’s will.
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JReducation
Guest
JReducation;9245548:
You’re saying the same thing that I’m saying. The Vatican is trying to help the LCWR. It is not engaging with several hundred congregations. People on the internet seem to have the impression that the latter is the case. The Archbishop has not been given authority to intervene with the congregations and their superiors, only with the LCWR.
I already stated, several times, that the LCWR has problems. I’m not there to p(name removed by moderator)oint them, so I have to take the Vatican’s word for it, which I do.
You’re reading into this intervention that the Vatican is engaging with several hundred superiors and congregations. That’s not what the document is saying. It’s pointing to some very serious problems within the LCWR that can trickle down into the congregations, because people hear these things coming from the LCWR and may or may not buy into it. The possibility that they may buy into it is too serious to ignore. However, no one really knows who and how many actually buy into some of these more radical dissensions. So what can the Vatican do? It can fix the source of the problem so that the dissensions don’t trickle down to the sisters.
I don’t disagree with the Vatican. I disagree with the way that people on the Internet are interpreting this and the spin that they are giving to it. I know that it’s wishful thinking, but for once, I wish the folks who post on the Internet would limit themselves to saying, “This happened and the Vatican is doing this,” and leave it at that, rather than read into it, edit it to smooth it over or add to it to make it worse.
If you go to any religious house in the country, male or female, that’s exactly what you’ll hear. “There is a problem at the LCWR and the Vatican has sent a representative to help them fix it.” Then, the religious move on. Why? Because it has nothing to do with us. The people who work for the LCWR are the ones who have to work with the Vatican to fix the problem. The rest of us go on about our daily business.
I’m trying to help you understand why I used the term silly. Maybe it’s not the right word. But when I see the reaction for or against the sisters on these posts and blogs and I compare it to what happens in religious houses, I say to myself, “If they only knew that we’re very calm about this and we’re keeping our noses out of it and letting the Vatican and the LCWR solve the problem.” Why? Because family life, religious life, parish life, national life, etc, cannot stop because of one organization that is already being dealt with by those who can help them, if they accept the help. None of us have any control over that either. Let’s pray that they do accept the help
Fraternally,
Br. JR, FFV
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BenedictFTW
Guest
You should read the story of St Faustina. I am sure many nuns struggle with having to obey meekly. I know I would. But, most nuns know what they have to do within the convent before they take their vows. They have quite a long time to discern before making the final commitment. Obedience and meekness are fundamental qualities in a good nun. It is also better for the soul to suffer in silence.
I have only respect for those who give their lives to our Church. But the nuns in question are being told off by the Vatican for going against Church teaching.
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