Little Old Nuns - Scare the Vatican?

  • Thread starter Thread starter trickster
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
You should read the story of St Faustina. I am sure many nuns struggle with having to obey meekly. I know I would. But, most nuns know what they have to do within the convent before they take their vows. They have quite a long time to discern before making the final commitment. Obedience and meekness are fundamental qualities in a good nun. It is also better for the soul to suffer in silence.

I have only respect for those who give their lives to our Church. But the nuns in question are being told off by the Vatican for going against Church teaching.
Well ok, I’m not arguing that this leadership is way off the track, but that’s not the point of my post.
Obedience and proper respect for authority are fundamental qualities for EVERY PERSON, not just the meek little nuns. Obedience is based in listening (ob - audiere, to listen to) and love. It is not a one-sided legalistic demand, although it adheres to objective truth. When we misunderstand authority and obedience, we have a problem. Maybe we participate in disobedience more than we would like to admit.

I have read Divine Mercy In My Soul from cover to cover and it changed my life. St Faustina encountered cruelty and other obstacles. Do you think the obstacles helped the cause of divine mercy? I don’t think so. Her freely given obedience defnitely did, which is one of the main themes of the book.
 
This whole thing with the sisters is the silliest thing in the world. Allow me to share my observations.
  1. There are too many cooks in the kitchen. Everyone wants to have an opinion and everyone thinks his opinion and his solutions are right. That’s part of the human condition, not much we can do there, right?
  2. The document that came from the Vatican DID NOT attack any group of sisters. I’ve held it in my hands. The document clearly says that the Leadership Conference of Women Religious has to be fixed, because of the company it keeps. The document does not speak about the women religious in America.
  3. The LCWR consists of approximately 60 to 100 sisters at any given time. There are thousands of sisters and nuns in the USA.
  4. The document is asking that these 60 sisters who are responsible for the Conference of Women Religious do their job in a manner that is consistent with Catholic teaching and work with people who are on the same page as the Church. Not an unreasonable demand.
  5. This sisters are not superiors to the sisters in the USA. The mission of a Conference for religious is to provide a means for the religious communities and the bishops to dialogue. It also provides a means for religious communities to cooperate with each other, rather than duplicate. Finally, it provides a means of offering opportunities for ongoing formation for all religious. The Conference has no authority in the religious communities. Each community has its own government.
  6. Conferences for religious exist, because bishops have no authority over religious. There has to be a way for the two bodies to talk to each other. It’s much easier to speak with a few delegates elected by the larger group, than for several hundred bishops and several hundred religious superiors to try to have a conversation. That would be a nightmare.
  7. The Church is not acting patriarchal or misogynistic. Every religious owes obedience to the Holy See. It just happens this in this dimension, the Holy See is masculine and in this case, it’s the Conference for Women Religious that has supported and allowed some unorthodox people to present at its gatherings and whatever else they’ve done. If it had been the Conference for Religious Men, then that group would be receiving a visit from the Vatican. But it’s not them. They’re doing fine.
  8. Finally, I don’t know if the laity knows this or not, but these Conferences have NO AUTHORITY over religious. All authority over religious is vested in the superior and the Holy See. They are canonically erected tools, not governing bodies. It is incorrect to think that because the Vatican has sent a representative to help the tool, that the Vatican believes that the carpenter who uses the tool is damaged. He can be. But the Vatican has not said that. It has said that the tool is damaged. It has to be fixed. Some people are not going to like it. Oh well . . . obedience is never easy. I don’t remember ever liking when my mother sent me to bed or demanded that I clean my room, but I sure as heck miss my mom.
Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV 🙂
Thank you BroJ, for always “instructing the uninformed” with kindness and love.

You are very good at this sprititual act of mercy.

I think many times, many of us informed lay Catholics just dont understand how the Vatican and the religious work.

From the onset of the OP and onward in the thread, it seems pretty clear to me that lacking of understanding amongst the laity has lead us to misunderstand the entire situation.

The title of the thread is misleading. The Vatican is not afraid of nuns, or religious for that matter.

The OP seems not to understand the dynamics of the situation.
 
Well ok, I’m not arguing that this leadership is way off the track, but that’s not the point of my post.
Obedience and proper respect for authority are fundamental qualities for EVERY PERSON, not just the meek little nuns. Obedience is based in listening (ob - audiere, to listen to) and love. It is not a one-sided legalistic demand, although it adheres to objective truth. When we misunderstand authority and obedience, we have a problem. Maybe we participate in disobedience more than we would like to admit.

I have read Divine Mercy In My Soul from cover to cover and it changed my life. St Faustina encountered cruelty and other obstacles. Do you think the obstacles helped the cause of divine mercy? I don’t think so. Her freely given obedience defnitely did, which is one of the main themes of the book.
The Vatican is not targeting individual nuns and sisters. They are specifically disciplining the Leadership because the Leadership has a great effect on other people. They are the ones who are leading people away from the Church and Jesus Christ. This is what the document says:

The Cardinal noted a prevalence of certain radical feminist themes incompatible with the Catholic faith in some of the programs and presentations sponsored by the LCWR, including theological interpretations that risk distorting faith in Jesus and his loving Father who sent his Son for the salvation of the world. Moreover, some commentaries on “patriarchy” distort the way in which Jesus has structured sacramental life in the Church; others even undermine the revealed doctrines of the Holy Trinity, the divinity of Christ, and the inspiration of Sacred Scripture.

Again, we are not talking about “disagreements” or even just “obedience.” We are talking about the salvation of souls. That is why I so strongly disagree with Br. JR when he says we are over reacting. These are nuns who are pushing birth control, abortion, homosexuality, women priests. How can you over react when people are acting in such a way as to send souls to hell for all eternity? They Vatican is extremely concerned about this, enough so to spend literally years on this problem. We should be at least as concerned.
 
Thank you BroJ, for always “instructing the uninformed” with kindness and love.

You are very good at this sprititual act of mercy.

I think many times, many of us informed lay Catholics just dont understand how the Vatican and the religious work.

From the onset of the OP and onward in the thread, it seems pretty clear to me that lacking of understanding amongst the laity has lead us to misunderstand the entire situation.

The title of the thread is misleading. The Vatican is not afraid of nuns, or religious for that matter.

The OP seems not to understand the dynamics of the situation.
I agree that the title of this thread is very misleading. But the OP’s premise is that the Vatican needs to leave the nuns alone, he thinks they are doing fine. Anyone would have to disagree with that.

To accuse the rest of us of not understanding is, I think, at least a bit unfair. We understand that there are nuns out there who are defying the Vatican and Church teaching on many different levels and are trying to teach others to do so as well. Their actions are extremely dangerous and the Vatican had no other choice but to step in as they have done. There is a crisis in the Church on the scale of which we have never seen before. I cannot support the Holy Father enough as he tries to tackle this. The Church will ultimately be successful, but again, at the cost of how many souls?
 
But the OP’s premise is that the Vatican needs to leave the nuns alone, he thinks they are doing fine. Anyone would have to disagree with that.

To accuse the rest of us of not understanding is, I think, at least a bit unfair.
I agree that the idea that things are fine is wrong. There most certainly are problems, and that is why the Vatican is setting to fix it.

As to your second point, I purposely used the word “many” for a reason. Because it’s not the same as “all”.

I do think “many” of the laity misunderstand. But that does not mean I think “all” of us do. 😃 😉
 
I agree that the idea that things are fine is wrong. There most certainly are problems, and that is why the Vatican is setting to fix it.

As to your second point, I purposely used the word “many” for a reason. Because it’s not the same as “all”.

I do think “many” of the laity misunderstand. But that does not mean I think “all” of us do. 😃 😉
What is that the many of the laity misunderstand? My understanding is that there is a very serious problem with the leadership of many women religious, that they are in direct conflict with teachings of the church and are spiritually dangerous. Is that a misunderstanding?
 
Benedict, be specific, what doctrines are they disobeying that the Pope is failing in geting them to obey? What threate to orthodoxy are they posing to garner the attention of the Vatican? They make a heck of a lot of sense for a modern day world!

Cheerz

Bruce
This was posted on the other thread. Make sure to watch the video all the way to the end. Father Barrone does an excellent job of explaining why some of the actions of the LCWR have caused the Church to become concerned.
youtube.com/watch?v=buDXNhKvnV0&feature=youtube_gdata_player

Fr. Robert Barron talks about the investigation 3 years ago when it was first began. Some of his words seem remarkably prescient given where we find ourselves today. In addition, you can see the relationship between how people responded at the time the investigation was announced and since it has been concluded. At the risk of being crude, SSDD. The same old objections from the same old people. Heck, they might have just saved their original text and slapped a new date on it with some slight update to acknowledge that the investigation is now over instead of beginning.
 
What is that the many of the laity misunderstand? My understanding is that there is a very serious problem with the leadership of many women religious, that they are in direct conflict with teachings of the church and are spiritually dangerous. Is that a misunderstanding?
That the Vatican is going after and reprimanding women religious as a whole. They are not. They are very specific in their concerns.

Again I am addressing many laity as a whole. Not your personal understanding.

Im not speaking about your personal understanding. 🙂
 
Thank you BroJ, for always “instructing the uninformed” with kindness and love.

You are very good at this sprititual act of mercy.

I think many times, many of us informed lay Catholics just dont understand how the Vatican and the religious work.

From the onset of the OP and onward in the thread, it seems pretty clear to me that lacking of understanding amongst the laity has lead us to misunderstand the entire situation.

The title of the thread is misleading. The Vatican is not afraid of nuns, or religious for that matter.

The OP seems not to understand the dynamics of the situation.
I believe the problem is a misunderstanding of the role of the LCSW and its authority. There Vatican sees a definite problem with the way that the LCSW does business. However, the Vatican also understands what many lay people do not understand. The LCSW has no authority over the sisters either individually or collectively. The danger is their influence, not their authority. They are very public and many sisters and lay people have access to their statements and their activities. Those who don’t know that the LCSW cannot speak authoritatively, will find some or much of what it has to say very disconcerting and others will just jump the train, believing that they have no choice.
I agree that the title of this thread is very misleading. But the OP’s premise is that the Vatican needs to leave the nuns alone, he thinks they are doing fine. Anyone would have to disagree with that.

To accuse the rest of us of not understanding is, I think, at least a bit unfair. We understand that there are nuns out there who are defying the Vatican and Church teaching on many different levels and are trying to teach others to do so as well. Their actions are extremely dangerous and the Vatican had no other choice but to step in as they have done. There is a crisis in the Church on the scale of which we have never seen before. I cannot support the Holy Father enough as he tries to tackle this. The Church will ultimately be successful, but again, at the cost of how many souls?
This is one area of misunderstanding. The Vatican is not stepping into any religious community. If a religious superior wants to take her sisters and walk off a cliff, there is nothing to stop her, since the Vatican is not dealing with the congregations and their superiors. It’s only dealing with the LCWR. It seems that its hope is that if the Vatican can get the LCWR back on track, it can disseminate good information and produce good programs and services that would help the sisters remain on the same page as the Church. The truth is that many sisters do not go on for more theology courses. You reach a certain age and you’re tired of school. You rely on workshops and publications to keep you informed. The LCSW is a valuable and influential resource.
What is that the many of the laity misunderstand? My understanding is that there is a very serious problem with the leadership of many women religious, that they are in direct conflict with teachings of the church and are spiritually dangerous. Is that a misunderstanding?
This is he misunderstanding right here. If the problem were perceived to be with the leadership of women religious, the organization to tap would have been the Council for Major Superiors of Women Religious. This council is made up of the leadership for women religious.

The word “leadership” when used in the same sentence with the LCWR does not imply or include superiors and their councils. It’s a different kind of leadership. It’s a moral leadership, if you want to call it that, not a juridical leadership. But the Vatican is not speaking to the superiors, at least not at this time.

We have to understand leadership as it is being used when speaking about the LCWR. It has nothing to do with those who actually lead the religious communities to which these sisters belong. I’m thinking of a good way to explain how the term is used, I guess he best way that I can explain it is when we refer to someone as a leader, because he has influence, takes initiative and is charismatic. It does not mean that he has authority to command obedience or compliance. Only superiors have that power and they are not collectively part of the LCSW. The superiors are in a different organization. If any superior has a membership to the LCSW, she is an individual member. She’s not part of a team of superiors. The LCSW is not where this group meets and works.

We have to support the LCSW and the Vatican. We need to encourage them both to go forward, not lose heart, take a deep breadth when they disagree and try to listen and understand each other. If these things happen, the issues can fixed one at a time. If there is an absence of trust and good will, there will be no progress.

Those of us who are not sisters, would do well to show some support for the sisters too. My way of doing it is by simply holding on to the same belief, they can do this. This is not impossible. The Vatican wants to help, not to punish. The sisters have a great deal to bring to the table and the rest of us Catholics are eager to hear about it. Finally, the Church is not the enemy. Judgmentalism and fear of trust is always the greatest enemy.

As Thomas a Kempis once wrote, “If the faults of your neighbor appear so big that they feel greater than your own, you don’t know yourself well. Go back and think about your faults.”

We have to always encourage people to look at what they need to change, before looking in the other direction. We have to encourage the sisters to do the same and tell them that we believe that they can do it. These are not evil women.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, FFV 🙂
 
This is one area of misunderstanding. The Vatican is not stepping into any religious community. If a religious superior wants to take her sisters and walk off a cliff, there is nothing to stop her, since the Vatican is not dealing with the congregations and their superiors. It’s only dealing with the LCWR. It seems that its hope is that if the Vatican can get the LCWR back on track, it can disseminate good information and produce good programs and services that would help the sisters remain on the same page as the Church. The truth is that many sisters do not go on for more theology courses. You reach a certain age and you’re tired of school. You rely on workshops and publications to keep you informed. The LCSW is a valuable and influential resource.

I don’t think I wrote anything about a religious community. I’ve been mentioning the LCWR all along. What is the LCSW? I don’t know anything about that.

I’m sorry, Br. JR, but no matter what you write, the fact remains that our Church is in crisis, and the nuns are a big part of that crisis, and thankfully, the Vatican is stepping in and doing something about it. A bishop has been appointed to oversee the LCWR, so they will definitely be answering to Church hierarchy now.

The LCWR say that they represent 80% of all nuns and sisters in the US. You are basically saying they are lying, that they do not represent that many religious, and they are actually a very small minority. You say there are only 60 to 80 of them, they say they are about 1500. Who am I to believe? And why would they lie about that?
 
Everyone wants to tell the sisters how to lead religious life. That’s the job of their general chapters and their superiors.
I think the laity are within their rights to complain when religious are as notoriously heterodox as the LCWR. I just want religious to be orthodox and faithful and not corrupt the faith of others, cause scandals, and be an obstacle to salvation. That doesn’t seem to be an unreasonable request or desire that somehow steps on the toes of the general chapters or superiors.
  • PAX
 
Brother JR, Another excellent explanation of a current news story affecting the Catholic church and the US. I only wish things like this would appear in the mainstream media so it could be used to explain it to the community at large. Especially the people that take the attitude “if it appears in the New York Times (or other mainstream media) it is gospel, if it doesn’t appear in mainstream media then they don’t know what they are talking about.”

God Bless you and your brothers
 
… What happened to the spirit of the 60’s …
“The Spirit of the 60’s” engaged in a variety of self destructive activities and contracted a venereal disease that rendered it sterile.

Sometimes the corporeal world actually DOES reflect the spiritual world. 😛
 
I think the laity are within their rights to complain when religious are as notoriously heterodox as the LCWR. I just want religious to be orthodox and faithful and not corrupt the faith of others, cause scandals, and be an obstacle to salvation. That doesn’t seem to be an unreasonable request or desire that somehow steps on the toes of the general chapters or superiors.
  • PAX
What you’re saying is very reasonable. It’s what I want too. But not everyone on the Interweb is being as reasonable. Some people want to go further and actually tell the sisters how to do A, B, and C. That’s over the top.

Fraternally,

Br. JR,FFV 🙂
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top