Little things I wonder

[CRATUS]

After observing the world and myself, I realized we are all sinners and we cannot inherently help that. Some people’s sins do not appear as weaknesses. Some people’s sins are met with stronger disapproval than others. It is difficult to imagine Jesus loves you even when you fail. I should not expect myself, others or always react or act according to the virtues. I still wonder why God permits certain things for some people and strongly condemns them in others. He loves us equally right? Some people are easily outcasted, while others easily accepted. Ultimately you should care for acceptance, but it is easy to say that when you are part of the “in” crowd.

 

[Mystical_Seeker]

The proud and envious and angry, seem to tend toward denouncing those with sins of greed and lust. Even though, as I’ve mentioned in other threads, according to Robert Barron’s CD course on the seven deadly sins, these are the most troublesome.

Because the first three sins are of perverted love: pride (underlies all sins), envy, and anger.

Those are foundational. The other sins are higher up, closer to the goal: first the sin of deficient love, sloth. Then the three of “excessive” love, greed, gluttony, and finally lust.

We always hear about problems of lust, but what about sins of pride? We are systematically taught to build up a social system of ego and pride that pretty much runs the whole “human show” and sure these people may be disliked, but why do we listen to them harp about people with sins that are less spiritually troublesome?

Really nothing has changed for 2000 years – the Big News is still, who is having irregular sex, and with the wrong partners? Somebody is ruled by their huge pride and ego? That doesn’t even make the last page because that is just “expected” of people, especially “successful” and “important” people.

That’s why Jesus was born in a manger. To break that whole mentality.

 

[CRATUS]

The proud and envious and angry, seem to tend toward denouncing those with sins of greed and lust. Even though, as I’ve mentioned in other threads, according to Robert Barron’s CD course on the seven deadly sins, these are the most troublesome.

Because the first three sins are of perverted love: pride (underlies all sins), envy, and anger.

Those are foundational. The other sins are higher up, closer to the goal: first the sin of deficient love, sloth. Then the three of “excessive” love, greed, gluttony, and finally lust.

We always hear about problems of lust, but what about sins of pride? We are systematically taught to build up a social system of ego and pride that pretty much runs the whole “human show” and sure these people may be disliked, but why do we listen to them harp about people with sins that are less spiritually troublesome?

Really nothing has changed for 2000 years – the Big News is still, who is having irregular sex, and with the wrong partners? Somebody is ruled by their huge pride and ego? That doesn’t even make the last page because that is just “expected” of people, especially “successful” and “important” people.

That’s why Jesus was born in a manger. To break that whole mentality.

I guess because those sins are the most embarrassing. No body wants a lazy family member. No body wants a daughter who is a s***. To be fair, plenty of people do criticize people from gossiping, judging others and being outright mean. I do not think those sins are swept under the carpet as much. Sure some sins are worse than others. I would not go as far as pretending others are just so-so. Perhaps, the reason why some people are adamant about certain sins is because are almost acting as if they no longer exist. Either way, people with pride aren’t going to own up to it easily. Most people feel justified with anger or yelling at others. As for envy, envy is an embarrassing sin to admit. Greed is not a little sin to me. I disagree. People do jacked up to things to other people in the pursuit of wealth. It is one thing to be having irregular sex with the wrong partners, it is not WHOLE nothing thing to be having a married person and having an affair. It disgusts me when men leave their wife and children to be with another woman. They neglect their children. That is sin is very heavy. I do not think all sexual sins are simple matters like you do. Sometimes pride can be petty. For example, thinking you are better than someone because you have evidence that you are - you are smarter, prettier, etc.

 

[fbl9]

I guess because those sins are the most embarrassing. No body wants a lazy family member. No body wants a daughter who is a s***. To be fair, plenty of people do criticize people from gossiping, judging others and being outright mean. I do not think those sins are swept under the carpet as much. Sure some sins are worse than others. I would not go as far as pretending others are just so-so. Perhaps, the reason why some people are adamant about certain sins is because are almost acting as if they no longer exist. Either way, people with pride aren’t going to own up to it easily. Most people feel justified with anger or yelling at others. As for envy, envy is an embarrassing sin to admit. Greed is not a little sin to me. I disagree. People do jacked up to things to other people in the pursuit of wealth. It is one thing to be having irregular sex with the wrong partners, it is not WHOLE nothing thing to be having a married person and having an affair. It disgusts me when men leave their wife and children to be with another woman. They neglect their children. That is sin is very heavy. I do not think all sexual sins are simple matters like you do. Sometimes pride can be petty. For example, thinking you are better than someone because you have evidence that you are - you are smarter, prettier, etc.

The sin of pride shows through in all the sins you listed above. It’s my body Iwill do as I like. It’s my life … Pride is all about the I.

 

[pianistclare]

Most of the consequences are self-driven.
Act like a jerk? Big surprise none wants to be around you.
Dating 5 guys at once?
Big surprise you can’t find a good man.
We do that junk to ourselves. God will often allow people to learn the hard way.

 

[Mystical_Seeker]

I guess because those sins are the most embarrassing. No body wants a lazy family member. No body wants a daughter who is a s***. To be fair, plenty of people do criticize people from gossiping, judging others and being outright mean. I do not think those sins are swept under the carpet as much. Sure some sins are worse than others. I would not go as far as pretending others are just so-so. Perhaps, the reason why some people are adamant about certain sins is because are almost acting as if they no longer exist. Either way, people with pride aren’t going to own up to it easily. Most people feel justified with anger or yelling at others. As for envy, envy is an embarrassing sin to admit. Greed is not a little sin to me. I disagree. People do jacked up to things to other people in the pursuit of wealth. It is one thing to be having irregular sex with the wrong partners, it is not WHOLE nothing thing to be having a married person and having an affair. It disgusts me when men leave their wife and children to be with another woman. They neglect their children. That is sin is very heavy. I do not think all sexual sins are simple matters like you do. Sometimes pride can be petty. For example, thinking you are better than someone because you have evidence that you are - you are smarter, prettier, etc.

Excellent post! No, I’m not saying they are simple matters, just that according to Fr. Barron, using the model of Mt. Purgatorio in Dante’s Inferno (which I know nothing about other than having taken a course from him) that they go like that. I won’t claim to know enough to argue for him, so if you are interested I can get you more information.

Thank you for a thoughtful post, containing both support and counterpoint for my ideas!

MS

 

[CRATUS]

Excellent post! No, I’m not saying they are simple matters, just that according to Fr. Barron, using the model of Mt. Purgatorio in Dante’s Inferno (which I know nothing about other than having taken a course from him) that they go like that. I won’t claim to know enough to argue for him, so if you are interested I can get you more information.

Thank you for a thoughtful post, containing both support and counterpoint for my ideas!

MS

Pride is the capital offense. I understand sometimes people focus a little too much on fornication between consenting adults or the other controversial issues I think people focus a little too much on judging as if, by judging someone you have missed the mark completely. I am sure Jesus was harsher on the self-righteous Pharisees but I do not think he overlooked other transgressions as well. Judging people is wrong, I just do not think it is horrible as people make it out to be.

 

[Mystical_Seeker]

Pride is the capital offense. I understand sometimes people focus a little too much on fornication between consenting adults or the other controversial issues I think people focus a little too much on judging as if, by judging someone you have missed the mark completely. I am sure Jesus was harsher on the self-righteous Pharisees but I do not think he overlooked other transgressions as well. Judging people is wrong, I just do not think it is horrible as people make it out to be.

Some good points, but when did Jesus call out someone for a sexual sin?

Compare that to how many times he called out the proud, for calling out the sexual sin?

One of these days I think I’ll catalog some of these kinds of things because it seems that a lot of what we get ourselves excited about do not align with what Jesus got excited about – rather we get excited about “identifying” sinners like it was really our Most Sacred Duty. Don’t get me going on “we must inform the sinner” because it’s way beyond that to the point it isn’t even the right spirit of correction but spirit of egoic blame.

The closest Jesus came to “calling out” sexual sinners that I can see, is when He said, “go and sin no more” to the adulteress … I’ve been told by some how Jesus was all about enforcing moralistic mindsets, based on that alone. It seems to me they must read the Bible for clues how to defend their thinking as opposed to transforming their thinking.

 

[fbl9]

Some good points, but when did Jesus call out someone for a sexual sin?

Compare that to how many times he called out the proud, for calling out the sexual sin?

One of these days I think I’ll catalog some of these kinds of things because it seems that a lot of what we get ourselves excited about do not align with what Jesus got excited about – rather we get excited about “identifying” sinners like it was really our Most Sacred Duty. Don’t get me going on “we must inform the sinner” because it’s way beyond that to the point it isn’t even the right spirit of correction but spirit of egoic blame.

The closest Jesus came to “calling out” sexual sinners that I can see, is when He said, “go and sin no more” to the adulteress … I’ve been told by some how Jesus was all about enforcing moralistic mindsets, based on that alone. It seems to me they must read the Bible for clues how to defend their thinking as opposed to transforming their thinking.

The woman at the well.

 

[CRATUS]

Some good points, but when did Jesus call out someone for a sexual sin?

Compare that to how many times he called out the proud, for calling out the sexual sin?

One of these days I think I’ll catalog some of these kinds of things because it seems that a lot of what we get ourselves excited about do not align with what Jesus got excited about – rather we get excited about “identifying” sinners like it was really our Most Sacred Duty. Don’t get me going on “we must inform the sinner” because it’s way beyond that to the point it isn’t even the right spirit of correction but spirit of egoic blame.

The closest Jesus came to “calling out” sexual sinners that I can see, is when He said, “go and sin no more” to the adulteress … I’ve been told by some how Jesus was all about enforcing moralistic mindsets, based on that alone. It seems to me they must read the Bible for clues how to defend their thinking as opposed to transforming their thinking.

I completely understand your point of view and I do agree, but I think there is still a lot of focus on judging too. Gees. Once you commit that sin, you are no longer a good Christian. I guess this depends on who is saying what. I guess Jesus did confront the woman at the well about her sins. Jesus did say if you look at a woman with lust in your heart you have sinned.

 

[Rosebud77]

I completely understand your point of view and I do agree, but I think there is still a lot of focus on judging too. Gees. Once you commit that sin, you are no longer a good Christian. I guess this depends on who is saying what. I guess Jesus did confront the woman at the well about her sins. Jesus did say if you look at a woman with lust in your heart you have sinned.

Coming fresh to this thread it is the judging of others that hits between the eyes…Some old advice i to keep your eyes on your own page… Jesus says it even better of course…

 

[Mystical_Seeker]

The woman at the well.

I completely understand your point of view and I do agree, but I think there is still a lot of focus on judging too. Gees. Once you commit that sin, you are no longer a good Christian. I guess this depends on who is saying what. I guess Jesus did confront the woman at the well about her sins. Jesus did say if you look at a woman with lust in your heart you have sinned.

Yes, it seems to be about judging and presumption about others’ sins, more than the sins of ourselves. Here is the extent of how badly Jesus accused and blamed the woman at the well:

John 4:
16 Jesus said to her, “Go call your husband and come back.” 17 The woman answered and said to him, “I do not have a husband.” Jesus answered her, “You are right in saying, ‘I do not have a husband.’ 18 For you have had five husbands, and the one you have now is not your husband. What you have said is true.”

Did Jesus call her a sinner? No.

Did Jesus say she had something wrong with her heart? No.

Did Jesus say she has an irregular sex life? Yes, after she brought it up in response to His question.

Did He tell her to “go and sin no more” – the way he thoroughly chastised the adultress?

No, He said she tells the truth about her husband situation.

So yeah, Jesus really “tore her a new attitude” there, didn’t he?

Now let’s compare that to what Jesus said to the so-called “righteous” people who DID tell people like the woman they were sinners and they should be stoned, etc. See if you can notice a different in the TONE in which Jesus talks to these people…

OK so that’s “exhibit A” – the place where Jesus “does His worst” at “accusing a sinner” of sexual sins. We have located one sentence in the New Testament, where Jesus acknowledges that a woman has an accurate description of her living situation – notice He did NOT use the word “sin” at all!

NOW check out exhibit B with just but ONE example what He says to people with sins of “pride.” Here he devotes an entire chapter to it:

Matt 23
Denunciation of the Scribes and Pharisees. 1 Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and to his disciples, 2 **saying, “The scribes and the Pharisees have taken their seat on the chair of Moses. 3 Therefore, do and observe all things whatsoever they tell you, but do not follow their example. For they preach but they do not practice. 4 They tie up heavy burdens[c] [hard to carry] and lay them on people’s shoulders, but they will not lift a finger to move them. 5 [d]All their works are performed to be seen. They widen their phylacteries and lengthen their tassels. 6 [e]They love places of honor at banquets, seats of honor in synagogues, 7 greetings in marketplaces, and the salutation ‘Rabbi.’ 8 [f]As for you, do not be called ‘Rabbi.’ You have but one teacher, and you are all brothers. 9 Call no one on earth your father; you have but one Father in heaven. 10 Do not be called ‘Master’; you have but one master, the Messiah. 11 The greatest among you must be your servant. 12 Whoever exalts himself will be humbled; but whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

13 [g]“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites. You lock the kingdom of heaven[h] before human beings. You do not enter yourselves, nor do you allow entrance to those trying to enter. [14 ]*

15 [j]“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites. You traverse sea and land to make one convert, and when that happens you make him a child of Gehenna twice as much as yourselves.

16 [k]“Woe to you, blind guides, who say, ‘If one swears by the temple, it means nothing, but if one swears by the gold of the temple, one is obligated.’ 17 Blind fools, which is greater, the gold, or the temple that made the gold sacred? 18 And you say, ‘If one swears by the altar, it means nothing, but if one swears by the gift on the altar, one is obligated.’ 19 You blind ones, which is greater, the gift, or the altar that makes the gift sacred? 20 One who swears by the altar swears by it and all that is upon it; 21 one who swears by the temple swears by it and by him who dwells in it; 22 one who swears by heaven swears by the throne of God and by him who is seated on it.

23 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites. You pay tithes[l] of mint and dill and cummin, and have neglected the weightier things of the law: judgment and mercy and fidelity. [But] these you should have done, without neglecting the others. 24 [m]Blind guides, who strain out the gnat and swallow the camel!

---

(continued)

 

[Mystical_Seeker]

(continued)

25 [n]“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites. You cleanse the outside of cup and dish, but inside they are full of plunder and self-indulgence. 26 Blind Pharisee, cleanse first the inside of the cup, so that the outside also may be clean.

27 [o]“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites. You are like whitewashed tombs, which appear beautiful on the outside, but inside are full of dead men’s bones and every kind of filth. 28 Even so, on the outside you appear righteous, but inside you are filled with hypocrisy and evildoing.

29 [p]“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees,[q] you hypocrites. You build the tombs of the prophets and adorn the memorials of the righteous, 30 and you say, ‘If we had lived in the days of our ancestors, we would not have joined them in shedding the prophets’ blood.’ 31 Thus you bear witness against yourselves that you are the children of those who murdered the prophets; 32 now fill up what your ancestors measured out! 33 You serpents, you brood of vipers, how can you flee from the judgment of Gehenna? 34 [r]Therefore, behold, I send to you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and pursue from town to town, 35 so that there may come upon you all the righteous blood shed upon earth, from the righteous blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Barachiah, whom you murdered between the sanctuary and the altar. 36 Amen, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.

The Lament over Jerusalem. 37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how many times I yearned to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her young under her wings, but you were unwilling! 38 Behold, your house will be abandoned, desolate. 39 I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’”

So we, as “righteous” and prideful Christians, love to treat “sexual” sinners with words just as tough as Jesus treat “sins of pride” and for that matter, those prideful sins committed by the church leaders.

Which would you rather hear Jesus say if He were speaking against you? That you are correct in saying that you do not have a husband, or all of that other stuff?

In my opinion, when we sit on our high horses and publicly and pridefully denounce others’ sexual sins, we are basically inviting Jesus’s words in Matt 23 to sink themselves into our own soul and see what they find.

So next time you want to publicly denounce people with sexual irregularity in the name of Jesus, remember those were the very people he hung around and defended against exactly the type of treatment you are bestowing on them. I challenge you to read Matt 23 with your own name put in as the people He’s talking to, and then get on with your accusations.

So yeah, “go and sin no more” and “your are right that you do not have a husband” v. “whitewashed tombs” and “brood of vipers”. Which type of sin do you think Jesus was more concerned about?

 

[CRATUS]

(continued)

25 [n]“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites. You cleanse the outside of cup and dish, but inside they are full of plunder and self-indulgence. 26 Blind Pharisee, cleanse first the inside of the cup, so that the outside also may be clean.

27 [o]“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites. You are like whitewashed tombs, which appear beautiful on the outside, but inside are full of dead men’s bones and every kind of filth. 28 Even so, on the outside you appear righteous, but inside you are filled with hypocrisy and evildoing.

29 [p]“Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees,[q] you hypocrites. You build the tombs of the prophets and adorn the memorials of the righteous, 30 and you say, ‘If we had lived in the days of our ancestors, we would not have joined them in shedding the prophets’ blood.’ 31 Thus you bear witness against yourselves that you are the children of those who murdered the prophets; 32 now fill up what your ancestors measured out! 33 You serpents, you brood of vipers, how can you flee from the judgment of Gehenna? 34 [r]Therefore, behold, I send to you prophets and wise men and scribes; some of them you will kill and crucify, some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and pursue from town to town, 35 so that there may come upon you all the righteous blood shed upon earth, from the righteous blood of Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Barachiah, whom you murdered between the sanctuary and the altar. 36 Amen, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation.

The Lament over Jerusalem. 37 “Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how many times I yearned to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her young under her wings, but you were unwilling! 38 Behold, your house will be abandoned, desolate. 39 I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, ‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.’”

So we, as “righteous” and prideful Christians, love to treat “sexual” sinners with words just as tough as Jesus treat “sins of pride” and for that matter, those prideful sins committed by the church leaders.

Which would you rather hear Jesus say if He were speaking against you? That you are correct in saying that you do not have a husband, or all of that other stuff?

In my opinion, when we sit on our high horses and publicly and pridefully denounce others’ sexual sins, we are basically inviting Jesus’s words in Matt 23 to sink themselves into our own soul and see what they find.

So next time you want to publicly denounce people with sexual irregularity in the name of Jesus, remember those were the very people he hung around and defended against exactly the type of treatment you are bestowing on them. I challenge you to read Matt 23 with your own name put in as the people He’s talking to, and then get on with your accusations.

So yeah, “go and sin no more” and “your are right that you do not have a husband” v. “whitewashed tombs” and “brood of vipers”. Which type of sin do you think Jesus was more concerned about?

I never said He was not concerned, I simply stated I think people act as if “judging” is the ultimate mark of an un-Christian lifestyle. I do not think it is all the serious. So what if someone judges me? It is wrong, but it is not murder. I do not think or understand why it is such a “serious” sin. I do not see how it affects society.

 

[Mystical_Seeker]

I never said He was not concerned, I simply stated I think people act as if “judging” is the ultimate mark of an un-Christian lifestyle. I do not think it is all the serious. So what if someone judges me? It is wrong, but it is not murder. I do not think or understand why it is such a “serious” sin. I do not see how it affects society.

I think a lot of people are scared of Jesus because they think he’s Thought Police and basically that makes things worse instead of better. Because now in addition to “doing” things wrong, now we have Thought Crimes, as well.

Instead I look at Jesus as Thought Coach. He isn’t telling us “do not judge because it will make God mad and He shall smite thee” maybe as much as "do yourself a favor and don’t form an unnecessary bond with someone else’s behavior or you will become anxious and codependent upon others’ behavior for your own happiness’.

Just like the part about anger and murder being similar. No, it isn’t murder to hate someone or even wish them dead, but Jesus equates them. And yes, I do think murder is “worse” than hatred in the heart. But passionate hatred in the heart inspires murder, and indicates our loathing for another fellow Human Being, a sinner we can judge as no better or worse than ourselves. And that hatred will keep us from seeing the kingdom because of all sorts of reasons. Judgment and anger and hatred are things that destroy our peace, without overt condemnation and punishing and murder necessary in order for them to do their work on our inward condition of the heart. So according to the law, do not murder and do not bear false witness.

We have to make certain judgments – like your example murder is less tolerable in society then “judging”.

So “judging” is not the “ultimate mark” of an un-Christian lifestyle, but it may cause a stumbling block that prevents your eyes from fully opening so that you may die to self, born of spirit, and enter into the kingdom. If it were simply about not making God angry for after one is dead, then it’s out of my league because I’ve decided to concern my Christian life entirely with how I live, not with fear that God will punish me after I die. If I can learn to see with “kingdom eyes” then as far as I’m concerned, this is what Jesus is calling us to do – not just “hope even more” that we won’t go to hell after we die. To mean that would be the “no news” not the “Good News”.

That said, maybe the “ultimate mark” of a Christian lifestyle (and by that I’ll mean trying to listen to and abide by Jesus’s teachings not so much I behave in the “right way” as defined by a Christian doctrine) IS, in fact, that they “do not judge” and that they do not rise to anger easily.

For example at the end of Matt 5 I’ll show you what I mean:

43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I say to you, love your enemies, and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your heavenly Father, for he makes his sun rise on the bad and the good, and causes rain to fall on the just and the unjust. 46 For if you love those who love you, what recompense will you have? Do not the tax collectors[ab] do the same? 47 And if you greet your brothers only, what is unusual about that? Do not the pagans do the same?[ac] 48 So be perfect,[ad] just as your heavenly Father is perfect.

So here we are told that even pagans can judge and punish other pagans. You don’t need to be a Christian to love those who love you. Try “not judging” and “not harboring anger” and you’ll be on the way. A non-Christian is nice to those (s)he judges as reasonably “not too sinful” or at least “doesn’t sin in a way to cause harm to others” – if you want to be “perfect” then you must strive for these mental/emotional goals and not just enough self-restraint to keep from killing the person you hate.

The person who wishes someone else dead instead of killing them may avoid societal judgment and punishment and retribution, but it does keep them from the love of God that could open their eyes. The reason people can’t do that is that we have all been brainwashed into thinking that “judgment” is our primary weapon for being Christian – and for some reason have lost the message of “do not judge” as a challenge to us to rise to a higher cognitive and emotional maturity than simply keeping our physical bodies from causing physical harm.

 

[CRATUS]

I think a lot of people are scared of Jesus because they think he’s Thought Police and basically that makes things worse instead of better. Because now in addition to “doing” things wrong, now we have Thought Crimes, as well.

Instead I look at Jesus as Thought Coach. He isn’t telling us “do not judge because it will make God mad and He shall smite thee” maybe as much as "do yourself a favor and don’t form an unnecessary bond with someone else’s behavior or you will become anxious and codependent upon others’ behavior for your own happiness’.

Just like the part about anger and murder being similar. No, it isn’t murder to hate someone or even wish them dead, but Jesus equates them. And yes, I do think murder is “worse” than hatred in the heart. But passionate hatred in the heart inspires murder, and indicates our loathing for another fellow Human Being, a sinner we can judge as no better or worse than ourselves. And that hatred will keep us from seeing the kingdom because of all sorts of reasons. Judgment and anger and hatred are things that destroy our peace, without overt condemnation and punishing and murder necessary in order for them to do their work on our inward condition of the heart. So according to the law, do not murder and do not bear false witness.

We have to make certain judgments – like your example murder is less tolerable in society then “judging”.

So “judging” is not the “ultimate mark” of an un-Christian lifestyle, but it may cause a stumbling block that prevents your eyes from fully opening so that you may die to self, born of spirit, and enter into the kingdom. If it were simply about not making God angry for after one is dead, then it’s out of my league because I’ve decided to concern my Christian life entirely with how I live, not with fear that God will punish me after I die. If I can learn to see with “kingdom eyes” then as far as I’m concerned, this is what Jesus is calling us to do – not just “hope even more” that we won’t go to hell after we die. To mean that would be the “no news” not the “Good News”.

That said, maybe the “ultimate mark” of a Christian lifestyle (and by that I’ll mean trying to listen to and abide by Jesus’s teachings not so much I behave in the “right way” as defined by a Christian doctrine) IS, in fact, that they “do not judge” and that they do not rise to anger easily.

For example at the end of Matt 5 I’ll show you what I mean:

43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I say to you, love your enemies, and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your heavenly Father, for he makes his sun rise on the bad and the good, and causes rain to fall on the just and the unjust. 46 For if you love those who love you, what recompense will you have? Do not the tax collectors[ab] do the same? 47 And if you greet your brothers only, what is unusual about that? Do not the pagans do the same?[ac] 48 So be perfect,[ad] just as your heavenly Father is perfect.

So here we are told that even pagans can judge and punish other pagans. You don’t need to be a Christian to love those who love you. Try “not judging” and “not harboring anger” and you’ll be on the way. A non-Christian is nice to those (s)he judges as reasonably “not too sinful” or at least “doesn’t sin in a way to cause harm to others” – if you want to be “perfect” then you must strive for these mental/emotional goals and not just enough self-restraint to keep from killing the person you hate.

The person who wishes someone else dead instead of killing them may avoid societal judgment and punishment and retribution, but it does keep them from the love of God that could open their eyes. The reason people can’t do that is that we have all been brainwashed into thinking that “judgment” is our primary weapon for being Christian – and for some reason have lost the message of “do not judge” as a challenge to us to rise to a higher cognitive and emotional maturity than simply keeping our physical bodies from causing physical harm.

This was a very long response. I read it all. I THINK I understand what you mean. If it, I guess I could pray for understand scripture. Well God Bless.

 

[CB_Catholic]

I think that if you want to sincerely clean up your (generic “your”) own act, look at what you pass judgment on others for. Mostly what we don’t like about others is something we don’t like about ourselves. But we tend to repress this, unless we are doing some serious introspection.

I am not talking about judging the rightness or wrongness of an act–we have to do that to determine what is sinful and what is not. I am talking about judging people. We can’t do that because we do not know the truth about ourselves or them, only God can judge truly in that respect.

I think this may be what is behind Jesus’ comment that the manner in which one judges another is how they will be judged.