Litugrgical Dancers

[SacredHeartFan]

Should liturgical dancers be in the liturgy? I personally don’t like them. No offense to anyone. I see the younger childeren point and stare at them and not pay attention to the mass. Any opinions?

 

[Michael_Welter]

The Mass should be focussed 100% on God, and Liturgical Dancers, IMHO, distract from God. And I believe the Vatican has instructed them to be banned from the Mass.

 

[SacredHeartFan]

The Mass should be focussed 100% on God, and Liturgical Dancers, IMHO, distract from God. And I believe the Vatican has instructed them to be banned from the Mass.

thank you!

 

[buffalo]

Absolutely not - Spirit of the Liturgy

Cardinal Ratzinger concludes with some valuable reflections on specific liturgical gestures and postures: that most ancient, primordial Christian gesture, the Sign of the Cross; the indispensable role of kneeling, presented with its abundant biblical foundations; the appropriateness of standing and sitting at different moments, and the inappropriateness of “liturgical dance” in any shape or form! Here too (p. 198), Ratzinger is again very blunt, warning against any tendency to turn the liturgy into a form of entertainment wherein attention is self-consciously drawn to merely human attractiveness or achievement:
Dancing is not a form of expression for the Christian liturgy. In about the third century, there was an attempt in certain Gnostic-Docetic circles to introduce it into the liturgy. For these people, the Crucifixion was only an appearance. . . . Dancing could take the place of the liturgy of the Cross, because, after all, the Cross was only an appearance. The cultic dances of the different religions have different purposes - incantation, imitative magic, mystical ecstasy - none of which is compatible with the essential purpose of the liturgy as the “reasonable sacrifice”. It is totally absurd to try to make the liturgy “attractive” by introducing dancing pantomimes (wherever possible performed by professional dance troupes), which frequently (and rightly, from the professionals’ point of view) end with applause. Wherever applause breaks out in the liturgy because of some human achievement, it is a sure sign that the essence of liturgy has totally disappeared and been replaced by a kind of religious entertainment. Such attraction fades quickly - it cannot compete in the market of leisure pursuits, incorporating as it increasingly does various forms of religious titillation.
Interestingly, however, Ratzinger sees no incompatibility between this unequivocal judgement against ‘liturgical dance’ and approval for those forms of ‘inculturation’ which the Vatican’s Congregation for Divine Worship has allowed (since its Instruction of 1995) for certain African liturgies. He says (p. 199):
None of the Christian rites include dancing. What people call dancing in the Ethiopian rite or the Zairean [Congolese] form of the Roman liturgy is in fact a rhythmically ordered procession, very much in keeping with the dignity of the occasion. It provides an inner discipline and order for the various stages of the liturgy, bestowing on them beauty and, above all, making them worthy of God.
While this may well be true in the case of the Congolese liturgy in question (which this writer has never witnessed), one suspects that in the inevitable extension of such gestures, the line of division between ‘dance’ on the one hand, and ‘rhythmically ordered’ movements on the other, might in practice turn out to be rather fine and difficult to draw.

 

[brotherhrolf]

SHF - here we go again. My own two eyes have seen on more than one occassion in our very own diocese liturgical dancers. Leotard dressed with diaphonous skirts and diaphonous shawls carrying bowls of incense wafting it from side to side down the main aisle of the cathedral. Others with 12’ tall poles with banners and ribbons…if I said to you “second line” dancers would you understand?

 

[Mea_Culpa]

If the Pope is against it, why is it still going on? And what is supposed to be the point of it?

http://www.recongress.org/2005/pix/ydlit/med_P2170221.jpg

Yes, that is CARDINAL Mahony (head of the Archdiocese of Los Angeles) up there in the middle of the gyrating young ladies. Off to the left are several other BISHOPS.

Click here to see liturgical dancers and Mr. Potato Head in a total desecration of the Holy Mass (expect to see this at next year’s Religious Education Congress in Los Angeles.)

 

[SacredHeartFan]

If the Pope is against it, why is it still going on? And what is supposed to be the point of it?

http://www.recongress.org/2005/pix/ydlit/med_P2170221.jpg

Yes, that is CARDINAL Mahony up there in the middle of the gyrating young ladies. Off to the left are several other BISHOPS.

is that at a mass? the way the people are seated it looks like it might be a rally or something along those lines.

 

[rosebudsal]

I’m definitely not a fan but I can usually tolerate them, so as not to be uncharitable. Still, I don’t think that they have a place in the Mass.

 

[Mea_Culpa]

is that at a mass? the way the people are seated it looks like it might be a rally or something along those lines.

Sorry, should have given the context, this is a MASS celebrated by CARDINAL Roger Mahony at last year’s Religious Education Congress in Anaheim, California. It is held in a big convention center. Since the Cardinal and several other Bishops were there, the dancing must have the approval of the Church. I just don’t see the point of it.

 

[japhy]

If the Pope is against it, why is it still going on? And what is supposed to be the point of it?

I didn’t notice the Paschal Candle there for a second, and thought that was a freakin’ pole on the singer’s platform.

Since the Cardinal and several other Bishops were there, the dancing must have the approval of the Church.

No, it was not approved by the Church. It was approved by the Cardinal/Archbishop and, I’d bet, went no higher. Plenty goes on that is not approved (and that is expressly forbidden). That doesn’t make it right.

And to say that Bishop So-and-so approves something means that the Church approves something is untrue; the Bishop must be in communion with the other Bishops and their head, the Pope. I would think the Pope is not pleased with this garbage, and that is putting it very lightly.

 

[benedictgal]

I have posted this on other dance-related threads, but, it certainly bears repeating. This comes from Francis Carindal Arinze, the Prefect of the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments and it is his answer to a question presented to him on the same subject:

Has liturgical dance been approved for Masses by your office?

There has never been a document from our Congregation for Divine Worship and Discipline of the Sacraments saying that dance is approved in the Mass.

The question of dance is difficult and delicate. However, it is good to know that the tradition of the Latin Church has not known the dance. It is something that people are introducing in the last ten years – or twenty years. It was not always so. Now it is spreading like wildfire, one can say, in all the continents – some more than others. In my own continent, Africa, it is spreading. In Asia, it is spreading.

Now, some priests and lay people think that Mass is never complete without dance. The difficulty is this: we come to Mass primarily to adore God – what we call the vertical dimension. We do not come to Mass to entertain one another. That’s not the purpose of Mass. The parish hall is for that.

So all those that want to entertain us – after Mass, let us go to the parish hall and then you can dance. And then we clap. But when we come to Mass we don’t come to clap. We don’t come to watch people, to admire people. We want to adore God, to thank Him, to ask Him pardon for our sins, and to ask Him for what we need.

Don’t misunderstand me, because when I said this at one place somebody said to me: “you are an African bishop. You Africans are always dancing. Why do you say we don’t dance?”

A moment – we Africans are not always dancing! [laughter]

Moreover, there is a difference between those who come in procession at Offertory; they bring their gifts, with joy. There is a movement of the body right and left. They bring their gifts to God. That is good, really. And some of the choir, they sing. They have a little bit of movement. Nobody is going to condemn that. And when you are going out again, a little movement, it’s all right.

But when you introduce wholesale, say, a ballerina, then I want to ask you what is it all about. What exactly are you arranging? When the people finish dancing in the Mass and then when the dance group finishes and people clap – don’t you see what it means? It means we have enjoyed it. We come for enjoyment. Repeat. So, there is something wrong. Whenever the people clap – there is something wrong – immediately. When they clap – a dance is done and they clap.

It is possible that there could be a dance that is so exquisite that it raises people’s minds to God, and they are praying and adoring God and when the dance is finished they are still wrapped up in prayer. But is that the type of dance you have seen? You see. It is not easy.

Most dances that are staged during Mass should have been done in the parish hall. And some of them are not even suitable for the parish hall.

I saw in one place – I will not tell you where – where they staged a dance during Mass, and that dance was offensive. It broke the rules of moral theology and modesty. Those who arranged it – they should have had their heads washed with a bucket of holy water! [laughter]

Why make the people of God suffer so much? Haven’t we enough problems already? Only Sunday, one hour, they come to adore God. And you bring a dance! Are you so poor you have nothing else to bring us? Shame on you! That’s how I feel about it.

Somebody can say, “but the pope visited this county and the people danced”. A moment: Did the pope arrange it? Poor Holy Father – he comes, the people arranged. He does not know what they arranged. And somebody introduces something funny – is the pope responsible for that? Does that mean it is now approved? Did they put in on the table of the Congregation for Divine Worship? We would throw it out! If people want to dance, they know where to go.

Now, I don’t think that the former Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger left the door open to dance. The issue is that “dance” is not part of the Latin Church’s form of worship. Inculturation into certain missionary teritories where dance is part of the cultic worship of the native groups is something to consider; however, what was displayed in Los Angeles certainly does not fit the category.

 

[GemmaRose]

I’m definitely not a fan but I can usually tolerate them, so as not to be uncharitable. Still, I don’t think that they have a place in the Mass.

The above quote is basically how I feel about liturgical dance.

I have seen very many liturgical dancers over the years, few of them very good. By “very good” I mean that their movements actually conveyed something. I like when their movements convey praise of, or offering or thanksgiving to God. Most of liturgical dances I’ve seen, however, just seem to be people flitting around. (And I’m not sure which is worse: The younger dancers in leotards and diaphanous skirts, or the middle-age+ nuns whose bodies are long past the age of dancing! )

But I was wondering, for those who seemingly cannot live without planning a Mass without liturgical dance, could it be done before Mass begins - before the entrance procession even starts processing? In that way, the dance would not take place within the Liturgy itself. I’d be interested in people’s comments on this idea.

 

[benedictgal]

I’m definitely not a fan but I can usually tolerate them, so as not to be uncharitable. Still, I don’t think that they have a place in the Mass.

First of all, the notion of being uncharitable is misplaced. What is uncharitable is what people are doing to the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. We are called to obey the norms and rubrics set forth by the Church and to follow the dictates of the Holy See.

As Redemptionis Sacramentum indicates in several places:

[7.] Not infrequently, abuses are rooted in a false understanding of liberty. Yet God has not granted us in Christ an illusory liberty by which we may do what we wish, but a liberty by which we may do that which is fitting and right.18 This is true not only of precepts coming directly from God, but also of laws promulgated by the Church, with appropriate regard for the nature of each norm. For this reason, all should conform to the ordinances set forth by legitimate ecclesiastical authority.

[9.] Finally, abuses are often based on ignorance, in that they involve a rejection of those elements whose deeper meaning is not understood and whose antiquity is not recognized. For “the liturgical prayers, orations and songs are pervaded by the inspiration and impulse” of the Sacred Scriptures themselves, “and it is from these that the actions and signs receive their meaning”.20 As for the visible signs “which the Sacred Liturgy uses in order to signify the invisible divine realities, they have been chosen by Christ or by the Church”.21 Finally, the structures and forms of the sacred celebrations according to each of the Rites of both East and West are in harmony with the practice of the universal Church also as regards practices received universally from apostolic and unbroken tradition,22 which it is the Church’s task to transmit faithfully and carefully to future generations. All these things are wisely safeguarded and protected by the liturgical norms.

[10.] The Church herself has no power over those things which were established by Christ Himself and which constitute an unchangeable part of the Liturgy.23 Indeed, if the bond were to be broken which the Sacraments have with Christ Himself who instituted them, and with the events of the Church’s founding,24 it would not be beneficial to the faithful but rather would do them grave harm. For the Sacred Liturgy is quite intimately connected with principles of doctrine,25 so that the use of unapproved texts and rites necessarily leads either to the attenuation or to the disappearance of that necessary link between the lex orandi and the lex credendi.26

Furthermorei, in November 2007, Francis Cardinal Arinze, the prefect of the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments noted that:

Liturgical abuses can confuse the congregation and occasion uncertainty, perplexity, scandal, opposition and factionalism. In more severe cases, they can obscure the Catholic faith and prevent the people from sharing fully in the celebration of the mysteries of Christ. To ignore liturgical norms can also reinforce a false understanding of freedom. In ecumenical efforts it introduces problems and sometimes a wrong presentation of the Catholic faith.17

To ignore liturgical norms can in a subtle way introduce secularization and gradual banalization into the liturgy. In this short-sighted vision, a church building may no longer be seen as a sacred place. Do the people then come to church for Mass as to a “meeting” like in a stadium or congress hall? Do they talk in church as if it were not appreciated as a sacred place separated from secular daily events? Does this tendency regard the norms on the use of liturgical vestments as triumphalism? Does it lead to a type of secular leveling down which prefers to say cup instead of chalice, plate instead of paten, dress instead of vestment, and president instead of priest celebrant?

To ignore liturgical norms can gradually introduce such erosions.

Dancing during the Mass certainly falls under what the Cardinal has stated in the above-quoted remarks.

 

[ruslan]

I didn’t notice the Paschal Candle there for a second, and thought that was a freakin’ pole on the singer’s platform.

Thanks for pointing that out! I thought it was a pole too!

 

[rosebudsal]

But I was wondering, for those who seemingly cannot live without planning a Mass without liturgical dance, could it be done before Mass begins - before the entrance procession even starts processing? In that way, the dance would not take place within the Liturgy itself. I’d be interested in people’s comments on this idea.

I think that would be a wonderful idea. The one time when it truly bothered me was just before Communion. I couldn’t see the deacon at all. (Or maybe right after as he might have been cleaning up.) Still, it wasn’t good.

At least it doesn’t happen at every Mass and maybe it will fade away in time.

 

[spbonner]

The question of Liturgical Dance was addressed by the Congregation for Devine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments in 1975 in the essey “Dance in the Liturgy” released by the Congregation in “Notitiae” 11 (1975) 202-205 as a “qualified and authoritative sketch.” The Congregations position was summed up at the end of the document:

If the proposal of the religious dance in the West is really to be made welcome, care will have to be taken that in its regard a place be found outside of the liturgy, in assembly areas which are not strictly liturgical. Moreover, the priests must always be excluded from the dance.

Father Robert VerEecke President and Artistic Director of the Boston Liturgical Dance Ensemble stated in a 2000 interview with the Adoremus Bulletin stated:

“I try to find forms outside the liturgy” with which to pray in dance. “I’m a realist about [incorporating dance into the liturgy]” he says, and adds, “After all, we [Catholics] are not Shakers”, referring to a Protestant sect once known for ecstatic dancing. He also volunteers that some promoters of liturgical dance have more good intentions than discretion, prudence or training.

There is a time and a place for dance in the worship of our Lord. That time and place is “outside of the liturgy.”

 

[dprewett]

If you want to put on a recital please request time in the gym and sell tickets. Do not force ex high school failed drama studnts on us whilst we are at Mass. Most of what I have seen on line nobody in there right mind would pay to see. I guess it s like the government spending tax dollars on art nobody would buy so some loser can express themselves. Or get a group together and start puplic access Liturgical Dance at 4am in the morning that way everybody in their right mind is asleep.

 

[Brendan]

You folks have an entirely wrong attitude here.

Vatican II is all about active participation. So if you see liturgical dancers, get up a join 'em. It a great chance to show the entire congregation all you best moves ( oh yeah, and you can show God too).

Do you best “Saturday Vigil Fever”, or grab the Cantor and show off your “Mass Mambo”.

The other liturgical dancers will certainly appreciate your direct involvement, as it shows you really ‘get’ the concept of 'active particiation". If anyone objects, well, they are just far to pre-Vat II

After all, didn’t St. Augustine say something like “He who dances well prays three times”

 

[VociMike]

You folks have an entirely wrong attitude here.

Vatican II is all about active participation. So if you see liturgical dancers, get up a join 'em. It a great chance to show the entire congregation all you best moves ( oh yeah, and you can show God too).

Do you best “Saturday Vigil Fever”, or grab the Cantor and show off your “Mass Mambo”.

The other liturgical dancers will certainly appreciate your direct involvement, as it shows you really ‘get’ the concept of 'active particiation". If anyone objects, well, they are just far to pre-Vat II

You know, I’ve wondered about that also. If a choir-only Mass with no singing by the people is bad, how come liturgical dancing only by the dancers is OK? Why aren’t the people allowed their rightful part in the dancing? Not to mention the priest! It is so not Vatican II!

After all, didn’t St. Augustine say something like “He who dances well prays three times”

Ahh, you’ve read the secret scrolls too, I see.

 

[dprewett]

My best moves are to Lord of the Dance Played on Bongos with a Tamberine accompanyment. I believe that people would pay to see that.