Liturgical abuse? Altar server/Chalice/purifying

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JUAN CARLOS:

Yes it was an ABUSE and your pastor should have known this.

The Pope came with the statements that: “the Eucharistic Ministers are NOT permitted to purify the chalices anymore, only the priest can do it,”

I am sure your pastor knew abut it, but it was one of an ABUSE on him because he knows he is to PURIFY the chalices, not the Eucharistic Ministers nor the altar servers.

The next time he ask you do do it: REFUSE.

GOd bless.
PROVIGIL
 
JUAN CARLOS:

Yes it was an ABUSE and your pastor should have known this.

The Pope came with the statements that: “the Eucharistic Ministers are NOT permitted to purify the chalices anymore, only the priest can do it,”

I am sure your pastor knew abut it, but it was one of an ABUSE on him because he knows he is to PURIFY the chalices, not the Eucharistic Ministers nor the altar servers.

The next time he ask you do do it: REFUSE.

GOd bless.
PROVIGIL
Juan Carlos,

Provigil is correct about Pope’s statement re: who is allowed/responsible to PURIFY the chalices. I have concern re: the statement about “Eucharistic Ministers”. If “Extraordinary Ministers” of Holy Communion was meant, instead, Which I suspect was the case, then it is correct as well. It’s unfortunate that the term “Eucharistic Ministers” has been used incorrectly so frequently, even by many priests. (Sorry, just a little soap-box issue of mine and my apologies to Provigil, who’s pretty clear on the facts.)

About refusing to purify the chalice, I’d advise to talk with the priest, BEFORE, serving the next Mass, and expressing your concern.

prayers,
-kc
 
A EMHC is not considered an instituted acolyte and should not be purifying the vessels at all. Even after Mass? Is that correct?
 
JUAN CARLOS:
The Pope came with the statements that: “the Eucharistic Ministers are NOT permitted to purify the chalices anymore, only the priest can do it,”

I am sure your pastor knew abut it, but it was one of an ABUSE on him because he knows he is to PURIFY the chalices, not the Eucharistic Ministers nor the altar servers.

The next time he ask you do do it: REFUSE.
Can you reference something to support that please. Not that I doubt you, but I would like to read it too because I see EMHC’s purifying vessels all over the place. Thanks.
 
JUAN CARLOS:

Yes it was an ABUSE and your pastor should have known this.

The Pope came with the statements that: “the Eucharistic Ministers are NOT permitted to purify the chalices anymore, only the priest can do it,”

I am sure your pastor knew abut it, but it was one of an ABUSE on him because he knows he is to PURIFY the chalices, not the Eucharistic Ministers nor the altar servers.

The next time he ask you do do it: REFUSE.

GOd bless.
PROVIGIL
Wrong. Bishops, priests, deacons and instituted acolytes may all purify the sacred vessels.
 
A EMHC is not considered an instituted acolyte and should not be purifying the vessels at all. Even after Mass? Is that correct?
Correct.

GIRM 279. The sacred vessels are purified by the priest, the deacon, or an instituted acolyte after Communion or after Mass, insofar as possible at the credence table. The purification of the chalice is done with water alone or with wine and water, which is then drunk by whoever does the purification. The paten is usually wiped clean with the purificator.”
 
OHMALLEY:

If you were reading it correctly, I said EUCHARITIC MINISTERS who arew LAY PEOPLE ARE NOT ALLOWED TO PURIFY THE CHALICES!!!

PROVIGIL
 
OHMALLEY:

If you were reading it correctly, I said EUCHARITIC MINISTERS who arew LAY PEOPLE ARE NOT ALLOWED TO PURIFY THE CHALICES!!!

PROVIGIL
The term “Eucharistic Ministers” applies only to priests and bishops. The documents are clear that that term is NOT to be used for Extraordinary Ministers of Holy Communion".

Redemptionis Sacramentum
states:
[154.] As has already been recalled, “the only minister who can confect the Sacrament of the Eucharist in persona Christi is a validly ordained Priest”.[254] Hence the name “minister of the Eucharist” belongs properly to the Priest alone. Moreover, also by reason of their sacred Ordination, the ordinary ministers of Holy Communion are the Bishop, the Priest and the Deacon,[255] to whom it belongs therefore to administer Holy Communion to the lay members of Christ’s faithful during the celebration of Mass. In this way their ministerial office in the Church is fully and accurately brought to light, and the sign value of the Sacrament is made complete.
[155.] In addition to the ordinary ministers there is the formally instituted acolyte, who by virtue of his institution is an extraordinary minister of Holy Communion even outside the celebration of Mass. If, moreover, reasons of real necessity prompt it, another lay member of Christ’s faithful may also be delegated by the diocesan Bishop, in accordance with the norm of law,[256] for one occasion or for a specified time, and an appropriate formula of blessing may be used for the occasion. This act of appointment, however, does not necessarily take a liturgical form, nor, if it does take a liturgical form, should it resemble sacred Ordination in any way. Finally, in special cases of an unforeseen nature, permission can be given for a single occasion by the Priest who presides at the celebration of the Eucharist.[257]
[156.] This function is to be understood strictly according to the name by which it is known, that is to say, that of extraordinary minister of Holy Communion, and not “special minister of Holy Communion” nor “extraordinary minister of the Eucharist” nor “special minister of the Eucharist”, by which names the meaning of this function is unnecessarily and improperly broadened.
 
If you were reading it correctly, I said EUCHARITIC MINISTERS who arew LAY PEOPLE ARE NOT ALLOWED TO PURIFY THE CHALICES!
That’s no way to act, Provigil. OhMalley quoted your post where you said:
The Pope came with the statements that: “the Eucharistic Ministers are NOT permitted to purify the chalices anymore, only the priest can do it,”
I can’t find a single post (apart from this one) where you said “Eucharistic Ministers [sic] who are lay people are not allowed to purify the chalices.”

An instituted acolyte is still a layman, and by virtue of his institution as an acolyte, he is considered an extraordinary minister of Holy Communion (EMHC) and he can purify the vessels. No other EMHC may do so, only an instituted acolyte. (And they are few and far between.)

There was an indult granted several years ago which allowed other EMHCs to purify the sacred vessels, but it was only for a period of a few years and it was not renewed. Only a bishop, priest, deacon, or instituted acolyte may purify the sacred vessels.
 
OHMALLEY:

If you were reading it correctly, I said EUCHARITIC MINISTERS who arew LAY PEOPLE ARE NOT ALLOWED TO PURIFY THE CHALICES!!!

PROVIGIL
That’s not accurate. What you actually said was:
JUAN CARLOS:

Yes it was an ABUSE and your pastor should have known this.

The Pope came with the statements that: “the Eucharistic Ministers are NOT permitted to purify the chalices anymore, only the priest can do it,”

I am sure your pastor knew abut it, but it was one of an ABUSE on him because he knows he is to PURIFY the chalices, not the Eucharistic Ministers nor the altar servers.

The next time he ask you do do it: REFUSE.

GOd bless.
PROVIGIL
And that is simply not accurate. The Church says:

GIRM 279. The sacred vessels are purified by the priest, the deacon, or an instituted acolyte after Communion or after Mass, insofar as possible at the credence table. The purification of the chalice is done with water alone or with wine and water, which is then drunk by whoever does the purification. The paten is usually wiped clean with the purificator.”

NB: Neither deacons nor instituted acolytes are “priests.” One is an ordained male, the other a layman.
 
I realize that posting long quotes is bad form, but for the sake of clarity, would posters here kindly read the following texts, and take particular note of the bold text (mine) especially the dates, and the 3-year time period which begain in 2002

United States Conference of Catholic Bishops
United States of America
Decree

On June 15, 2002, the Latin members of the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops approved a request for an indult from the prescriptions of the Institutio Generalis Missalis Romani, editio typica tertia, allowing for the purification of sacred vessels by extraordinary ministers of Holy Communion when deemed pastorally appropriate by the diocesan bishop.

In a decree dated March 22, 2002 (Prot. 1382/01/L), the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments granted an indult whereby, for grave pastoral reasons, the diocesan Bishop may grant to priest celebrants the faculty to permit extraordinary ministers of Holy Communion to assist with the purification of sacred vessels after the distribution of Communion at Mass. This faculty dispenses from the norm of the Institutio Generalis Missalis Romani, editio typica tertia for a period of three years.

The indult is hereby published and is effective immediately.

Given at the General Secretariat of the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops, Washington, D.C. on March 28, 2002, Holy Thursday.

Most Reverend Wilton Gregory
Bishop of Belleville
President
United States Conference of Catholic Bishops
Reverend Monsignor William P. Fay
General Secretary

Second letter:

Congregation for Divine Worship
and the Discipline of the Sacraments
Prot. 1382/01/L

THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA
In response to the request of His Excellency, the Most Reverend Joseph Fiorenza, Bishop of Galveston-Houston, President of the Conference of Bishops of the United States of America, made in a letter dated June 21, 2001, and in virtue of the faculties granted to the this Congregation by the Supreme Pontiff, JOHN PAUL II, we grant that in the dioceses of this same Conference, for grave pastoral reasons, the faculty may be given by the diocesan Bishop to the priest celebrant to use the assistance, when necessary, even of extraordinary ministers in the cleansing of sacred vessels after the distribution of Communion has been completed in the celebration of Mass. **This faculty is conceded for a period of three years as a dispensation from the norm **of the Institutio Generalis, edito typica tertia of the Roman Missal.

All things to the contrary notwithstanding.

From the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments, March 22, 2002.
  • Jorge A. Cardinal Medina Estevez
    Prefect
+Francisco Pio Tamburrino
Archbishop-Secretary

On June 9, **2006 **in an audience with the Holy Father, Pope Benedict XVI this indult was not extended. The Conference of Bishops was informed of this by a letter from Cardinal Francis Arinze, Prefect of the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments, dated October 12, 2006 (Prot, n. 468/05/L).

Source: usccb.org/liturgy/current/norms.shtml

Please note that there seems to be a formatting error on the USCCB webpage because the last paragraph of my post (On June 9, 2005…) is in the wrong place on the page. I’ve taken the liberty of moving it in my own post. The formatting mistake is obvious, and I recall we discussed it in a different thread some time ago. There seems to be a number of formatting errors in that webpage. In any case, the key paragraph is the one I’ve shown in blue letters.
 
I realize that posting long quotes is bad form, but for the sake of clarity, would posters here kindly read the following texts, and take particular note of the bold text (mine) especially the dates, and the 3-year time period which begain in 2002

United States Conference of Catholic Bishops
United States of America
Decree

On June 15, 2002, the Latin members of the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops approved a request for an indult from the prescriptions of the Institutio Generalis Missalis Romani, editio typica tertia, allowing for the purification of sacred vessels by extraordinary ministers of Holy Communion when deemed pastorally appropriate by the diocesan bishop.

In a decree dated March 22, 2002 (Prot. 1382/01/L), the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments granted an indult whereby, for grave pastoral reasons, the diocesan Bishop may grant to priest celebrants the faculty to permit extraordinary ministers of Holy Communion to assist with the purification of sacred vessels after the distribution of Communion at Mass. This faculty dispenses from the norm of the Institutio Generalis Missalis Romani, editio typica tertia for a period of three years.

The indult is hereby published and is effective immediately.

Given at the General Secretariat of the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops, Washington, D.C. on March 28, 2002, Holy Thursday.

Most Reverend Wilton Gregory
Bishop of Belleville
President
United States Conference of Catholic Bishops
Reverend Monsignor William P. Fay
General Secretary

Second letter:

Congregation for Divine Worship
and the Discipline of the Sacraments
Prot. 1382/01/L

THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA
In response to the request of His Excellency, the Most Reverend Joseph Fiorenza, Bishop of Galveston-Houston, President of the Conference of Bishops of the United States of America, made in a letter dated June 21, 2001, and in virtue of the faculties granted to the this Congregation by the Supreme Pontiff, JOHN PAUL II, we grant that in the dioceses of this same Conference, for grave pastoral reasons, the faculty may be given by the diocesan Bishop to the priest celebrant to use the assistance, when necessary, even of extraordinary ministers in the cleansing of sacred vessels after the distribution of Communion has been completed in the celebration of Mass. **This faculty is conceded for a period of three years as a dispensation from the norm **of the Institutio Generalis, edito typica tertia of the Roman Missal.

All things to the contrary notwithstanding.

From the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments, March 22, 2002.
  • Jorge A. Cardinal Medina Estevez
    Prefect
+Francisco Pio Tamburrino
Archbishop-Secretary

On June 9, **2006 **in an audience with the Holy Father, Pope Benedict XVI this indult was not extended. The Conference of Bishops was informed of this by a letter from Cardinal Francis Arinze, Prefect of the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments, dated October 12, 2006 (Prot, n. 468/05/L).

Source: usccb.org/liturgy/current/norms.shtml

Please note that there seems to be a formatting error on the USCCB webpage because the last paragraph of my post (On June 9, 2005…) is in the wrong place on the page. I’ve taken the liberty of moving it in my own post. The formatting mistake is obvious, and I recall we discussed it in a different thread some time ago. There seems to be a number of formatting errors in that webpage. In any case, the key paragraph is the one I’ve shown in blue letters.
I’ve appreciated your longer posts because you tend to provide back-up documentation to support your arguments, and sometimes include documents of historical significance which helps to make the changes in form easier to understand. Thank you also for your clarification in the other post regarding Communion masses. Because of your help, the Diocese called a visiting priest who is in town for an ordination, to say mass at our Parish today, instead of having a communion service, so A BIG THANK YOU for your efforts!
 
I sent Fr. Serpa a private message on this topic, I thought I’d post it:

Hi,

A priest may receive by intinction, but it is the priest who is supposed to purify the chalice. This includes drinking the water.

Fr. VS

From this, I will simply not purify the Chalice in the future.
 
I sent Fr. Serpa a private message on this topic, I thought I’d post it:

Hi,

A priest may receive by intinction, but it is the priest who is supposed to purify the chalice. This includes drinking the water.

Fr. VS

From this, I will simply not purify the Chalice in the future.
Bishop, priest, deacon or instituted acolyte.
 
I’ve appreciated your longer posts because you tend to provide back-up documentation to support your arguments, and sometimes include documents of historical significance which helps to make the changes in form easier to understand. Thank you also for your clarification in the other post regarding Communion masses. Because of your help, the Diocese called a visiting priest who is in town for an ordination, to say mass at our Parish today, instead of having a communion service, so A BIG THANK YOU for your efforts!
Mass or communion service? Two different things.
 
If a deacon is present, the deacon should purify the chalice
GIRM 183. When the distribution of Communion is completed, the deacon returns to the altar with the priest and collects the fragments, if any remain, and then carries the chalice and other sacred vessels to the credence table, where he purifies them and arranges them in the usual way while the priest returns to the chair. It is also permissible to leave the vessels that need to be purified, suitably covered, at the credence table on a corporal and to purify them immediately after Mass following the dismissal of the people.

If no deacon is present, the priest should purify the chalice

GIRM 163. …Upon returning to the altar, the priest collects any fragments that may remain. Then, standing at the altar or at the credence table, he purifies the paten or ciborium over the chalice then purifies the chalice, saying quietly, Quod ore sumpsimus (Lord, may I receive), and dries the chalice with a purificator. If the vessels are purified at the altar, they are carried to the credence table by a minister. Nevertheless, it is also permitted, especially if there are several vessels to be purified, to leave them suitably covered on a corporal, either at the altar or at the credence table, and to purify them immediately after Mass following the dismissal of the people

If there is no deacon present, but there is an instituted Acolyte present, he may purify the chalice.

GIRM 192. Likewise, when the distribution of Communion is completed, a duly instituted acolyte helps the priest or deacon to purify and arrange the sacred vessels. When no deacon is present, a duly instituted acolyte carries the sacred vessels to the credence table and there purifies, wipes, and arranges them in the usual way.

The instituted Acolyte may always assist the priest/deacon in purifying, but the GIRM seems very much to indicate by saying specifically “helps the priest or deacon to purify…” that this is not, strictly-speaking, the “ordinary” function of the instituted Acolyte, but rather a supplemental function to be exercised when there’s a need (for example, a large number of chalices). There does seem to be a bit of a disconnect in GIRM 192 because it’s not quite clear on what happens when there’s no deacon. Does the acolyte assist the priest or does he carry the vessels to the credence table and purify them himself? The GIRM describes both scenarios, but they are incompatible with each other. Either of the 2 ways described in the GIRM 192 would be perfectly licit. I personally believe that this would come down to following the policy of the bishop or the pastor (if such a policy exists) or for the decision to be made by the celebrant.
 
I realize that posting long quotes is bad form, but for the sake of clarity, would posters here kindly read the following texts, and take particular note of the bold text (mine) especially the dates, and the 3-year time period which begain in 2002

United States Conference of Catholic Bishops
United States of America
Decree

On June 15, 2002, the Latin members of the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops approved a request for an indult from the prescriptions of the Institutio Generalis Missalis Romani, editio typica tertia, allowing for the purification of sacred vessels by extraordinary ministers of Holy Communion when deemed pastorally appropriate by the diocesan bishop.

In a decree dated March 22, 2002 (Prot. 1382/01/L), the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments granted an indult whereby, for grave pastoral reasons, the diocesan Bishop may grant to priest celebrants the faculty to permit extraordinary ministers of Holy Communion to assist with the purification of sacred vessels after the distribution of Communion at Mass. This faculty dispenses from the norm of the Institutio Generalis Missalis Romani, editio typica tertia for a period of three years.

The indult is hereby published and is effective immediately.

Given at the General Secretariat of the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops, Washington, D.C. on March 28, 2002, Holy Thursday.

Most Reverend Wilton Gregory
Bishop of Belleville
President
United States Conference of Catholic Bishops
Reverend Monsignor William P. Fay
General Secretary

Second letter:

Congregation for Divine Worship
and the Discipline of the Sacraments
Prot. 1382/01/L

THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA
In response to the request of His Excellency, the Most Reverend Joseph Fiorenza, Bishop of Galveston-Houston, President of the Conference of Bishops of the United States of America, made in a letter dated June 21, 2001, and in virtue of the faculties granted to the this Congregation by the Supreme Pontiff, JOHN PAUL II, we grant that in the dioceses of this same Conference, for grave pastoral reasons, the faculty may be given by the diocesan Bishop to the priest celebrant to use the assistance, when necessary, even of extraordinary ministers in the cleansing of sacred vessels after the distribution of Communion has been completed in the celebration of Mass. **This faculty is conceded for a period of three years as a dispensation from the norm **of the Institutio Generalis, edito typica tertia of the Roman Missal.

All things to the contrary notwithstanding.

From the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments, March 22, 2002.
  • Jorge A. Cardinal Medina Estevez
    Prefect
+Francisco Pio Tamburrino
Archbishop-Secretary

On June 9, **2006 **in an audience with the Holy Father, Pope Benedict XVI this indult was not extended. The Conference of Bishops was informed of this by a letter from Cardinal Francis Arinze, Prefect of the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments, dated October 12, 2006 (Prot, n. 468/05/L).

Source: usccb.org/liturgy/current/norms.shtml

Please note that there seems to be a formatting error on the USCCB webpage because the last paragraph of my post (On June 9, 2005…) is in the wrong place on the page. I’ve taken the liberty of moving it in my own post. The formatting mistake is obvious, and I recall we discussed it in a different thread some time ago. There seems to be a number of formatting errors in that webpage. In any case, the key paragraph is the one I’ve shown in blue letters.
The diocese where I was trained to be an EMHC back in 1998-99 trained us to purify the vessels and we did so during Mass the whole time I was there.

I see the same being done in most places I visit. Why do you think this is the case?
 
The diocese where I was trained to be an EMHC back in 1998-99 trained us to purify the vessels and we did so during Mass the whole time I was there.

I see the same being done in most places I visit. Why do you think this is the case?
I suspect that, as with many things, the priests were not told that there was a time limit on the indult or didn’t pay attention when told. Then they weren’t informed that it had not been extended. If the bishop doesn’t pass on the message nothing is going to happen.

When Redemptionis Sacramentum came out my pastor at the time immediately initiated changes in the parish (no longer consecrating the wine in the flagon, etc). His successor insisted that our bishop had told him specifically that RS hadn’t been implemented in our diocese. I wouldn’t be surprised if that were the case, since only now is the 2002 GIRM even being looked at by our Bishop’s Conference who from the start have insisted that it is not binding until the English version of the Missal is promulgated.
 
I suspect that, as with many things, the priests were not told that there was a time limit on the indult or didn’t pay attention when told. Then they weren’t informed that it had not been extended. If the bishop doesn’t pass on the message nothing is going to happen.

When Redemptionis Sacramentum came out my pastor at the time immediately initiated changes in the parish (no longer consecrating the wine in the flagon, etc). His successor insisted that our bishop had told him specifically that RS hadn’t been implemented in our diocese. I wouldn’t be surprised if that were the case, since only now is the 2002 GIRM even being looked at by our Bishop’s Conference who from the start have insisted that it is not binding until the English version of the Missal is promulgated.
Apparently we were trained as EMHC’s to purify vessels 4 years (and earlier) before the indult was given for only 3 years.
The indult is hereby published and is effective immediately.
Given at the General Secretariat of the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops, Washington, D.C. on March 28, 2002, Holy Thursday.
I wonder why we were trained this way, without an indult first?

I am certain that at least one parish pastor I am thinking of which continues this practice, as well as having the up to 12 EMHC’s per Mass, some of who are filling the Chalices on the altar, is aware of the norms because I brought them up with him and was eventually told I would be more comfortable at a different Church. I wrote the Vicariate and then the Arch Diocese but the practice continues outside of the norm nevertheless.

Why are pastoral initiatives outside of the norms permitted? I have been asking this for years without getting an understandable answer.
 
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