Liturgical Abuse Correction Kit?

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Is there any online repository somewhere that has liturgical abuses categorized and indexed, with the related liturgical laws and/or norms in violation? In other words, if I saw the celebrant distributing the Host to EMHCs at Mass before he had consumed his (that is, in the style of concelebrants), and I wanted to know if it constituted a liturgical abuse, I could go to this online repository, search for some keywords, and find Can communion be distributed to Extraordinary Ministers of Holy Communion before the priest has consumed the Host and Chalice?

The item would say, “no, and here’s why…” and then include a link to and an excerpt from the documents which state it cannot be done:

“All receive Holy Communion in the manner described by the General Instruction to the Roman Missal, whether priest concelebrants (cf. GIRM, nos. 159, 242, 243, 246), deacons (cf. GIRM, nos. 182, 244, 246), or extraordinary ministers of Holy Communion (cf. GIRM, no. 284). Neither deacons nor lay ministers may ever receive Holy Communion in the manner of a concelebrating priest. The practice of extraordinary ministers of Holy Communion waiting to receive Holy Communion until after the distribution of Holy Communion is not in accord with liturgical law.” (Norms for the Distribution and Reception of Holy Communion Under Both Kinds in the Dioceses of the United States of America, 39)

Does such a web site exist?

Is anyone interested in working with me to create such a service?
 
japhy said:
Is there any online repository somewhere that has liturgical abuses categorized and indexed, with the related liturgical laws and/or norms in violation? In other words, if I saw the celebrant distributing the Host to EMHCs at Mass before he had consumed his (that is, in the style of concelebrants), and I wanted to know if it constituted a liturgical abuse, I could go to this online repository, search for some keywords, and find Can communion be distributed to Extraordinary Ministers of Holy Communion before the priest has consumed the Host and Chalice?

The item would say, “no, and here’s why…” and then include a link to and an excerpt from the documents which state it cannot be done:

“All receive Holy Communion in the manner described by the General Instruction to the Roman Missal, whether priest concelebrants (cf. GIRM, nos. 159, 242, 243, 246), deacons (cf. GIRM, nos. 182, 244, 246), or extraordinary ministers of Holy Communion (cf. GIRM, no. 284). Neither deacons nor lay ministers may ever receive Holy Communion in the manner of a concelebrating priest. The practice of extraordinary ministers of Holy Communion waiting to receive Holy Communion until after the distribution of Holy Communion is not in accord with liturgical law.” (Norms for the Distribution and Reception of Holy Communion Under Both Kinds in the Dioceses of the United States of America, 39)Does such a web site exist?

Is anyone interested in working with me to create such a service?
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Not that I’m aware of. It would require someone to think of all the things a celebrant could do and all the different ways he could do them. There are many sites like this one: click on “Outlined here”

charlottediocese.org/liturgicalnorms.html

That list in concise terms what is expected for the celebration of liturgy in a specific diocese in conformity with the GIRM.
 
Br.Rich_SFO said:
Not that I’m aware of. It would require someone to think of all the things a celebrant could do and all the different ways he could do them. There are many sites like this one.

That list in concise terms what is expected for the celebration of liturgy in a specific diocese in conformity with the GIRM.
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I’m not saying it will instantly be an exhaustive list, but I’m sure a handful of concerned Catholics can come up with a couple dozens abuses (either that they’ve seen themselves, or heard of through others). Perhaps the “top ten” abuses… (homilies given by the wrong people, pouring of the Precious Blood from one vessel to another, the wrong material used for sacred vessels, improper reception of the Eucharist by the EMHCs, etc.).

The Charlotte diocese seems to have its act together; their norms refer to the GIRM and other standing documents that support their practices. Good for them!

The problem is that many dioceses don’t have such liturgical norms published. Those that do, not all parishes pay attention to them; or they have published norms with erroneous instructions!

The parish I attended last night processed the Lectionary in, which is not permitted by GIRM which states that “to be prepared … at the ambo [is] the Lectionary” (n. 118) and that in the opening procession may be “a lector who may carry the Book of the Gospels (though not the Lectionary), which should be slightly elevated” (n. 120d). The EMHCs received Holy Communion in the manner of concelebrants, which is not permitted by the GIRM nor the Norms I posted earlier.

(And their music was wretched. I had never before heard a saxaphone played during Mass.)

I’m not angry that they make mistakes, but I seek to correct the mistakes. Either don’t know there are guidelines to follow (ignorance, which is corrected easily), or they know they are there but desire to make stuff up themselves, often in direct contradiction to those norms (stubbornness, which is not corrected so easily). Ignorance of the rules is irritating; stubbornness and not adhering to those rules is infuriating.

I need to pray for patience and charity when I see liturgical abuses.
 
japhy said:
The parish I attended last night …
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That sounds like it’s not your home parish. I don’t think you’re going to have much sway as a visitor. Just be grateful that this isn’t your regular parish.
I need to pray for patience and charity when I see liturgical abuses.
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Amen.
 
japhy said:
I’m not saying it will instantly be an exhaustive list, but I’m sure a handful of concerned Catholics can come up with a couple dozens abuses (either that they’ve seen themselves, or heard of through others). Perhaps the “top ten” abuses… (homilies given by the wrong people, pouring of the Precious Blood from one vessel to another, the wrong material used for sacred vessels, improper reception of the Eucharist by the EMHCs, etc.).

The Charlotte diocese seems to have its act together; their norms refer to the GIRM and other standing documents that support their practices. Good for them!

The problem is that many dioceses don’t have such liturgical norms published. Those that do, not all parishes pay attention to them; or they have published norms with erroneous instructions!

The parish I attended last night processed the Lectionary in, which is not permitted by GIRM which states that “to be prepared … at the ambo [is] the Lectionary” (n. 118) and that in the opening procession may be “a lector who may carry the Book of the Gospels (though not the Lectionary), which should be slightly elevated” (n. 120d). The EMHCs received Holy Communion in the manner of concelebrants, which is not permitted by the GIRM nor the Norms I posted earlier.

(And their music was wretched. I had never before heard a saxaphone played during Mass.)

I’m not angry that they make mistakes, but I seek to correct the mistakes. Either don’t know there are guidelines to follow (ignorance, which is corrected easily), or they know they are there but desire to make stuff up themselves, often in direct contradiction to those norms (stubbornness, which is not corrected so easily). Ignorance of the rules is irritating; stubbornness and not adhering to those rules is infuriating.

I need to pray for patience and charity when I see liturgical abuses.
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I think you could start a thread here with one question per entry and let people here answer that specific question under it in the thread. Keeping all the new questions against the left side edge of the thread.
 
SuscipeMeDomine said:
That sounds like it’s not your home parish. I don’t think you’re going to have much sway as a visitor. Just be grateful that this isn’t your regular parish.
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It’s one town over (in another diocese), where I’m facilitating a Young Adult Bible Study for the next several months. Not my parish, but still…
 
And the overall point of this repository is what? If you are actively critiquing everything to the letter of the law, you end up missing the point at mass, the spiritual part. An adaptation or mistake here or there is nothing to get upset about. It is an imperfect mass put on by imperfect people. The point is that everyone there is striving to get better.

The vast majority of people there at that mass would not know the difference if the EMs were given communion first or not. It does not detract from their spiritual experience or their reasons for coming to mass.

As long as people come out spiritually nourished at the end of mass it was a good mass. Mass is still valid even if the GIRM is not always followed to the letter.
 
NewUlm1976_2000 said:
As long as people come out spiritually nourished at the end of mass it was a good mass.
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We are a liturgical Church, so ritual is important. It is not an afterthought or an add-on.

It is axiomatic that a sloppily performed Mass will not properly nourish the people, whether they know it or not.
 
lepanto said:
We are a liturgical Church, so ritual is important. It is not an afterthought or an add-on.

It is axiomatic that a sloppily performed Mass will not properly nourish the people, whether they know it or not.
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What I see here though is a strive with an over-emphasis towards perfection.

If the people do not know about a minor slip up? How can they be spiritually malnourished? :confused:

In my experience, no two masses are ever totally alike.
 
What I see here though is a strive with an over-emphasis towards perfection.

If the people do not know about a minor slip up? How can they be spiritually malnourished? :confused:

In my experience, no two masses are ever totally alike.
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That is precisely what distinguishes the Extraordinary Form of the Mass. The old rite constantly encouraged the strive for perfection and many Masses were indeed “alike.”

It is one thing for a celebrant to make an error in good faith, by way of oversight or omission. That is not what most members are are speaking about here. They refer to deliberate deviations from the Order of Mass, especially the rubrics contained in the GIRM.
 
This reminds me of that whole can’t see the log in your own eye, but can detect the speck in your neighbor’s…

Priests are human and are not perfect. Yeah, sometimes mistakes will be made. Most of these mistakes are minor.

Guess what? They went to seminary! You did not. Don’t be armchair quarterbacks! Be charitable!

Our archbishop celebrated mass at our parish recently. Part of his homily was on rubrics and mass abuse. He said people who get so caught up in the legalities of the rubrics and write him week after week after week are completely missing the point and miss out of the LOVE of Jesus that is offered. He agreed that sometimes the lay people think things are wrong, but in his tenure as archbishop, any severe wrong doing has been rare and addressed promptly.

What went unsaid, but was strongly implied, was that those chronic complainers become well known. Their credibility is non-existent, because they have NOT gone through seminary and training. Their complaints, if repetitive, meet the circular file. They are MISSING THE POINT!

I tend to agree!
 
Catholic90 said:
Priests are human and are not perfect. Yeah, sometimes mistakes will be made. Most of these mistakes are minor.
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And some mistakes aren’t minor. And some things that go wrong aren’t mistakes.
Catholic90 said:
He said people who get so caught up in the legalities of the rubrics and write him week after week after week are completely missing the point and miss out of the LOVE of Jesus that is offered.
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I am not missing out on the love of Jesus at Mass, but I am curious just how far we can modify the Mass to our liking before it’s not a Mass anymore. If they can change and tweak things as they see fit, what’s stopping someone else from doing so?
 
It is precisely out of a love of Jesus that people want the Mass to be done with respect to Jesus.

The abuses people point out here are not mistakes but deliberate deviations done to personalize the Mass. This is putting the pastors above the Church by pridefully not listening to the Church and doing their own thing.

It is much more humble to submit to the rules and do it as it should be done than to do it your own way. It is dishonest to claim the abuses are to be ignored out of a love of Jesus, when many times it is people putting themselves in the place of God by making the Mass their own personal production instead of doing it out of service of God.

Fractioning the Wine takes planning to do it, having a homily done by a layperson takes planning, abuses such as these are no brainers and completely disrespectful to the spirit of following God instead of doing what we want.

Of of our love of Jesus we should do things for God, not for ourselves.

In Christ
Scylla
 
Chatter163 said:
That is precisely what distinguishes the Extraordinary Form of the Mass. The old rite constantly encouraged the strive for perfection and many Masses were indeed “alike.”

It is one thing for a celebrant to make an error in good faith, by way of oversight or omission. That is not what most members are are speaking about here. They refer to deliberate deviations from the Order of Mass, especially the rubrics contained in the GIRM.
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How do you know the “old rite” is always “alike”. Most of the time the priest has his back to the people and is praying near silently (from what I have seen on posted YouTube examples). You cannot read thoughts to compare masses. I would say there is also variance in the “old” rite as it is in the current, “new” rite.
 
How do you know the “old rite” is always “alike”. Most of the time the priest has his back to the people and is praying near silently (from what I have seen on posted YouTube examples). You cannot read thoughts to compare masses. I would say there is also variance in the “old” rite as it is in the current, “new” rite.
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Um, I know because I have been an altar server and MC for many years at the old rite; I see it up close. I do not rely on You Tube videos to make my assertion.

I was responding to a poster who asserted that every Mass is not alike, and implied that is the way that it should be. I responded that the Extraordinary Form absolutely does not share that perspective and indeed most Masses appear the same. This is what the rubrics call far, and one does not see variety from church to church and from priest to priest, as one sees in the Ordinary Form. This is because there are no options in the EF and the rubrics are extremely precise, resulting in the Masses being celebrated without variety. Don’t know why this offends you, but it happens to be true.
 
Catholic90 said:
This reminds me of that whole can’t see the log in your own eye, but can detect the speck in your neighbor’s…

Priests are human and are not perfect. Yeah, sometimes mistakes will be made. Most of these mistakes are minor.

Guess what? They went to seminary! You did not. Don’t be armchair quarterbacks! Be charitable!

Our archbishop celebrated mass at our parish recently. Part of his homily was on rubrics and mass abuse. ** He said people who get so caught up in the legalities of the rubrics and write him week after week after week are completely missing the point and miss out of the LOVE of Jesus that is offered. ** He agreed that sometimes the lay people think things are wrong, but in his tenure as archbishop, any severe wrong doing has been rare and addressed promptly.

What went unsaid, but was strongly implied, was that those chronic complainers become well known. Their credibility is non-existent, because they have NOT gone through seminary and training. Their complaints, if repetitive, meet the circular file. They are MISSING THE POINT!

I tend to agree!
Click to expand...
 
japhy said:
Is there any online repository somewhere that has liturgical abuses categorized and indexed, with the related liturgical laws and/or norms in violation?

Does such a web site exist?

Is anyone interested in working with me to create such a service?
Click to expand...
The thread I had created in the meantime has been discontinued because its format does not conform to the forum, so I reopen my RFC. If anyone is interested in helping, they can send me a private message, even if it’s just to provide questions (with or without answers) for the web site.

Thanks.
 
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