Liturgical abuse? (from Canada)

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We had a family mass today at our parish, in an attempt by the parish priest to encourage more participation from the local Catholic school.
A few teachers were instrumental in making this happen. A booklet was produced, so the congregation could follow along.
I was concerned to discover that the creed had been entirely rewritten, as had the opening and the closing prayer, and the entire Eucharistic Prayer.

Is this allowable?
And, if it is not, can you give me the reference from the GIRM, or any other Vatican document that would be supportive.

Thanks,
Kathie
 
Sigh No.

There is a reference. I just can’t find it at the moment. Maybe someone else has it.
 
Was the Creed possibly the Apostles’ Creed? It’s shorter than the normal Nicene Creed, and I believe it can be used is some circumstances. My Missal says the Apostles’ Creed can be used in “Masses with children,” but I’m not sure what that really means, or whether that agrees with the GIRM.

There are also several different (simplified) Eucharistic prayers in my Missal beyond the usual four, with the same explanation. So it sounds out-of-the-ordinary, but I wouldn’t necessarily jump to the conclusion that this isn’t allowable. Whether it’s a good idea is another question though ;).

I would recommend, if you are comfortable doing so, asking your Priest about it in a non-accusatory way. For example, “I noticed at the Mass on Sunday that we used a different Creed and Eucharistic prayer than usual. I was just wondering why. I’m not familiar with the ones we used.”

If you do so, I’d be interested to know what he says. If the answer is something scary like, “Well, I just felt like changing it,” then I would write a letter to your Bishop’s office explaining what happened and see what they say. But hopefully your Priest will be able to show or explain what he did and why, and hopefully it’ll agree with the GIRM!

God bless you.
 
Kathie_Hogan said:
We had a family mass today at our parish, in an attempt by the parish priest to encourage more participation from the local Catholic school.
A few teachers were instrumental in making this happen. A booklet was produced, so the congregation could follow along.
I was concerned to discover that the creed had been entirely rewritten, as had the opening and the closing prayer, and the entire Eucharistic Prayer.

Is this allowable?
And, if it is not, can you give me the reference from the GIRM, or any other Vatican document that would be supportive.

Thanks,
Kathie
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Hi Kathie,

I can’t tell you much with this level of detail. Could you possibly scan/type/take a picture of this booklet for us to see?
 
achmafooma said:
Was the Creed possibly the Apostles’ Creed? It’s shorter than the normal Nicene Creed, and I believe it can be used is some circumstances. My Missal says the Apostles’ Creed can be used in “Masses with children,” but I’m not sure what that really means, or whether that agrees with the GIRM.

There are also several different (simplified) Eucharistic prayers in my Missal beyond the usual four, with the same explanation. So it sounds out-of-the-ordinary, but I wouldn’t necessarily jump to the conclusion that this isn’t allowable. Whether it’s a good idea is another question though ;).
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The Apostles’ Creed is the norm in Canada. Perhaps was it the Nicene Creed? Or was it the Creed in question-and-answer form?
 
A full text of the supposed rewritten Creed would help. Accusing that the Creed was rewritten without giving the text doesn’t really prove or say anything. Since there is a question if its a Liturgical abuse or not, its best to give concrete evidence. Now its guesswork. Is it just the Apostle’s Creed over the Nicene Creed? Or perhaps a different but valid translation of the Nicene Creed? We don’t know.
 
I know that in some parishes the little ones don’t learn the Apostles or Nicene Creeds, but a very simplified version of this: a three or four statement Creed that might be OK in liturgies outside of Mass but has no place in Mass. I found this one that is extensive but I’ve known one used that is only 4 or 5 lines long, close to the bold parts below.
CHILDREN’S CREED
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I believe that God is my Father in heaven.
I believe That he made the world.
That he gives me life.
That he helps me grow.

I believe that Jesus is the son of God And the Son of Mary

Jesus shows me that God is love.
Jesus lived and died for me.
Jesus is alive now, alive in me.
And in my neighbor.

**I believe in the Holy Spirit
**
Who helps me love others.
Who makes me holy.
Who helps me to know God better?

I believe in God’s family, the church.
I believe that I will be happy with God for ever and ever.

Amen
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As for the Eucharistic Prayer, it was probably one of the Eucharistic Prayers for Masses with Children.

The Directory on Masses with Children says this:
  1. The priest is permitted to choose from the Roman Missal texts of presidential prayers more suited to children, keeping in mind the liturgical season, so that he may truly associate the children with himself.
  2. Since these prayers were composed for adult Christians, however, the principle simply of choosing from among them does not serve the purpose of having the children regard the prayers as an expression of their own life and religious experience. [44] If this is the case, the text of prayers of the Roman Missal may be adapted to the needs of children, but this should be done in such a way that, preserving the purpose of the prayer and to some extent its substance as well, the priest avoids anything that is foreign to the literary genre of a presidential prayer, such as moral exhortations or a childish manner of speech.
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Anything from this Directory is supposed to apply only to Masses where there are mostly children with a few adults and not your typical Sunday morning Mass.
 
ConstantineTG said:
A full text of the supposed rewritten Creed would help. Accusing that the Creed was rewritten without giving the text doesn’t really prove or say anything. Since there is a question if its a Liturgical abuse or not, its best to give concrete evidence. Now its guesswork. Is it just the Apostle’s Creed over the Nicene Creed? Or perhaps a different but valid translation of the Nicene Creed? We don’t know.
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There are only 3 choices for a licit Creed at Mass, AFAIK, and those are the Nicene, the Apostles, the Baptismal question and answer type.
 
NO, it was neither the Nicene Creed nor the Apostles Creed that was said. I have been reciting those for 53 years, and would recognize either at 50 paces!
The Eucharist Prayer and the opening and closing prayers were entirely new as well- all with simplified/dumbed-down language.
Thankfully, our bishops have announced that the new liturgical changes will be coming to Canada for this Advent as well. I guess the wonderful American bishops prodded them into it.
I will try to find a copy of the mass event from yesterday and scan the relevant parts.

Thanks,
Kathie
 
Phemie said:
There are only 3 choices for a licit Creed at Mass, AFAIK, and those are the Nicene, the Apostles, the Baptismal question and answer type.
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Don’t forget The Athanasian Creed, however it is only recited normally within the Divine Office and not Mass, i’m sure it can licitly be used, however I can assure the OP it wasn’t The Athanasian Creed, as it incredibly long (the longest of the 3 Professions of Faith, by a long shot), and wouldn’t be suited for a Mass with Children, maybe with a congregation full of theologians.
 
no it is not allowed to rewrite the Mass
but first make very sure of your facts
since it was a “family Mass” the lectionary, creed, Eucharistic prayer and other elements approved for Masses with children may have been used. First simply TALK to the priest and ask your questions.
 
Kathie_Hogan said:
Thankfully, our bishops have announced that the new liturgical changes will be coming to Canada for this Advent as well. I guess the wonderful American bishops prodded them into it.
I will try to find a copy of the mass event from yesterday and scan the relevant parts.

Thanks,
Kathie
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Don’t rejoice too quickly. Parishes where abuses are ongoing are not likely to see them eradicated by the promulgation of the new translation of the Roman Missal. All that’s going to change is the language. Unless Rome revokes the Directory on Masses with Children, they will still continue to use it to justify everything.

Lets face it, the CCCB has issued a document on Liturgy of the Word with Children. It says that those liturgies, within the Mass context, are not to be regularly scheduled (most parishes have them weekly), are to be true liturgies (colouring and drawing are not a part of any liturgy), are only for children aged 4-8 (babes in arms are often taken to them), etc. The Bishops can talk and issue documents 'til they’re blue in the face, you have to have a very strong Pastor who will go against what the parishioners want because they believe what they want is also what the Church wants.

BTW, it has nothing to do with the American Bishops. They were waiting for the adaptations they had requested to be approved or rejected by Rome. They really couldn’t do anything until the translation was officially recognized, something that didn’t happen until last year.
 
achmafooma said:
Was the Creed possibly the Apostles’ Creed? It’s shorter than the normal Nicene Creed, and I believe it can be used is some circumstances.
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FYI, the Apostles Creed is the normative Creed in English Speaking Canada. It would be a deviation form the norms to use the Nicean Creed.

French Masses use the Nicean Creed.
 
Brendan said:
FYI, the Apostles Creed is the normative Creed in English Speaking Canada. It would be a deviation form the norms to use the Nicene Creed.

French Masses use the Nicene Creed.
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While that had been my experience for years, I’ve noticed that now only the Apostles Creed is provided in the “Prions en Église”, Novalis’s French equivalent of “Living with Christ”.
 
Brendan said:
FYI, the Apostles Creed is the normative Creed in English Speaking Canada. It would be a deviation form the norms to use the Nicean Creed.

French Masses use the Nicean Creed.
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Actually I seem to recall my Canadian Ordo stating that the Nicene and Apostles’ Creeds have equal footing in Canada (something to that effect) and can be either can be used at any time, with the Nicene Creed recommended (not required) highly on certain days. I can look it up.

I personally prefer the Nicene Creed. Sung. In Latin. Which is why I attend St. Anthony’s at 12 noon. But when my group had to step in as an emergency choir at St. Thomas More one time, I also pushed for the Nicene Creed and taught the choir to bow at the proper point (by the power of the Holy Spirit, he was born of the Virgin Mary and became man).
 
porthos11 said:
Actually I seem to recall my Canadian Ordo stating that the Nicene and Apostles’ Creeds have equal footing in Canada (something to that effect) and can be either can be used at any time, with the Nicene Creed recommended (not required) highly on certain days. I can look it up.

I personally prefer the Nicene Creed. Sung. In Latin. Which is why I attend St. Anthony’s at 12 noon. But when my group had to step in as an emergency choir at St. Thomas More one time, I also pushed for the Nicene Creed and taught the choir to bow at the proper point (by the power of the Holy Spirit, he was born of the Virgin Mary and became man).
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At the moment, since we’re still using the 1975 GIRM, we use the Apostles Creed by indult. Yes, we may use either although the Nicene is highly recommended for use at Christmas and the Annunciation.
 
Phemie said:
At the moment, since we’re still using the 1975 GIRM, we use the Apostles Creed by indult. Yes, we may use either although the Nicene is highly recommended for use at Christmas and the Annunciation.
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Using the Apostle’s Creed does not require an indult; it’s permitted by a rubric in the Missal itself, although suggested for use chiefly in Lent and Eastertide.
 
MarkThompson said:
Using the Apostle’s Creed does not require an indult; it’s permitted by a rubric in the Missal itself, although suggested for use chiefly in Lent and Eastertide.
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Not according to the 1975 GIRM, which Canada is still using. That one called for the Nicene but Canada was granted an indult to use the Apostles Creed regularly. Don’t ask me why, nobody I’ve asked knows why the CCCB asked for such an indult back then. I certainly remember using the Nicene Creed for several years before it kind of fell out of use.
 
Phemie said:
Not according to the 1975 GIRM, which Canada is still using. That one called for the Nicene but Canada was granted an indult to use the Apostles Creed regularly. Don’t ask me why, nobody I’ve asked knows why the CCCB asked for such an indult back then. I certainly remember using the Nicene Creed for several years before it kind of fell out of use.
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The 2002 GIRM doesn’t contain this information either, so it shouldn’t matter that the 1975 GIRM didn’t. I mean that the rubric is found in the actual order of Mass.

Am I wrong here?
 
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