Liturgical Abuse "Too Much Wine Being Consecrated During Mass"

[centurionguard]

I would like to know if there are any EMHC’s who have witnessed to much wine being consecrated during Mass and left remaining on the credence table in numerous chalices to be consumed and purified after Mass ?

I have witnessed this repeatedly while I was formerly the sacristan of my parish.
Now that I serve as a Eucharistic minister I still see this happen on a regular basis which bothers me terribly out of lack of respect for the Blood of Christ.

Worst of all most of the EMHC’s don’t want to consume the consecrated wine in fear of germs from the parishioners and getting drunk. On most Sundays even if I’m not scheduled to serve as EMHC I help out in the sacristy with the cleanup and purification of the sacred vessels after Mass and putting the priest and deacon vestments away.
Most times due to the priest poor health I am left consuming the large amount of consecrated wine left over.

Our parish priest seems ambilvalent in concerns toward the responsibility of the lay liturgical director who sets up for Mass and how many host are needed in ciborium (“to be consecrated”) before Mass as well as the amount of wine that is needed in the large crystal wine decanter. Yes I have addressed this problem respectfully with my parish priest. No solution as of yet. My fear is that if I don’t help out in the sacristy after Mass some EMHC’s will pour the consecrated wine down the sacrarium which I have witnessed on a number of occasions. My heart is really broken over all this lack of respect for the Blood of Christ. Any suggestions ?

 

[Sr_Sally]

It is because of situations like this that I am grateful we don’t have communion under both species at my parish. It is very difficult to guage how much wine to consecrate. It seems though, that your parish regularly uses too much. Have you already spoken directly to your pastor about this? Can you speak to the liturgical director? Simply point out that there is so much leftover.

Also, is the wine poured before being consecrated? Even if the decanter is filled, perhaps the priest can simply pour out less and the unconsecrated wine in the decanter removed from the altar before the Eucharistic prayer.

It isn’t an abuse for the wine to be consecrated, but once it is the Blood of Christ needs to be consumed properly. If the priest cannot drink it, perhaps the lay director should take over that job!

 

[Mom_of_5]

Just my humble opinion… Obey the Priest, he is in charge. However, it is not up to you to consume the left over consecrated wine, it is not good for you to drink large amounts of wine to “save it”, anymore than it is for the Priest. Whether we like it or not, somethings are not our decisions to make. If you just cannot tolerate the Priests way of doing things, go to the Bishop. It is not up to you to play sargent at arms at every mass to make sure it is done correctly. I say, if nothing else, relax, Jesus will handle it in His way. Trust Him.

Mom of 5

 

[centurionguard]

Just my humble opinion… Obey the Priest, he is in charge. However, it is not up to you to consume the left over consecrated wine, it is not good for you to drink large amounts of wine to “save it”, anymore than it is for the Priest. Whether we like it or not, somethings are not our decisions to make. If you just cannot tolerate the Priests way of doing things, go to the Bishop. It is not up to you to play sargent at arms at every mass to make sure it is done correctly. I say, if nothing else, relax, Jesus will handle it in His way. Trust Him.

Mom of 5

It is not up to you to play sargent at arms at every mass to make sure it is done correctly.

Now that’s a rather quaint ignoramus and impolite way of drawing a conclusion.
Where do you get the idea of prejudging me as taking control of this situation when you are not even present to witness what I see as well as other EMHC’s.
Isn’t that like jumping the gun and putting the the cart before the horse ?

 

[zab]

QUOTE=centurionguard;5340342]I would like to know if there are any EMHC’s who have witnessed to much wine being consecrated during Mass and left remaining on the credence table in numerous chalices to be consumed and purified after Mass ?

I have witnessed this repeatedly while I was formerly the sacristan of my parish.
Now that I serve as a Eucharistic minister I still see this happen on a regular basis which bothers me terribly out of lack of respect for the Blood of Christ.

Worst of all most of the EMHC’s don’t want to consume the consecrated wine in fear of germs from the parishioners and getting drunk. **On most Sundays even if I’m not scheduled to serve as EMHC I help out in the sacristy with the cleanup and purification of the sacred vessels **after Mass and putting the priest and deacon vestments away.
Most times due to the priest poor health I am left consuming the large amount of consecrated wine left over.

Our parish priest seems ambilvalent in concerns toward the responsibility of the lay liturgical director who sets up for Mass and how many host are needed in ciborium (“to be consecrated”) before Mass as well as the amount of wine that is needed in the large crystal wine decanter. Yes I have addressed this problem respectfully with my parish priest. No solution as of yet. My fear is that if I don’t help out in the sacristy after Mass some EMHC’s will pour the consecrated wine down the sacrarium which I have witnessed on a number of occasions. My heart is really broken over all this lack of respect for the Blood of Christ. Any suggestions ?

It is because of situations like this that I am grateful we don’t have communion under both species at my parish. It is very difficult to guage how much wine to consecrate. It seems though, that your parish regularly uses too much. Have you already spoken directly to your pastor about this? Can you speak to the liturgical director? Simply point out that there is so much leftover.

Also, is the wine poured before being consecrated? Even if the decanter is filled, perhaps the priest can simply pour out less and the unconsecrated wine in the decanter removed from the altar before the Eucharistic prayer.

It isn’t an abuse for the wine to be consecrated, but once it is the Blood of Christ needs to be consumed properly. If the priest cannot drink it, perhaps the lay director should take over that job!

Just my humble opinion… Obey the Priest, he is in charge. However, it is not up to you to consume the left over consecrated wine, it is not good for you to drink large amounts of wine to “save it”, anymore than it is for the Priest. Whether we like it or not, somethings are not our decisions to make. If you just cannot tolerate the Priests way of doing things, go to the Bishop. It is not up to you to play sargent at arms at every mass to make sure it is done correctly. I say, if nothing else, relax, Jesus will handle it in His way. Trust Him.

Mom of 5

There are a lot of issues to address in these posts.

1. You said that you are a “former sacristan”. I admire you for trying to make sure that the Precious Blood is not abused. But it is no longer up to you to consume the Precious Blood after Mass. That is really the duty of the priest or deacon. In the event that there is some dire need for someone to care for the Precious Blood when the priest or deacon is not present to purify the vessels or unable for whatever health reason to consume the Precious Blood, then the sacristan should take care that these things are done properly. This matter needs to be addressed. The pastor needs to be told that there is a large amount of Precious Blood remaining after Communion and that the sacred vessels need to be purified. If you are still seeing a large amount of Precious Blood remaining when you serve as EMHC, you should report this to your pastor and/or other Liturgical staff members.
2. The priest should not be consecrating the wine in the flagon. The wine should be poured into the cups before it is consecrated. We have been instructed to fill the flagon to a certain point at each Mass. The priest or deacon determines how much to pour into the cups. Sometimes there is unconsecrated wine left in the flaggon and the is poured into a wine flask in the sacristy to be used at the next Mass. —Again, the priest needs to be told if he is consecrating too much wine if there is always a large amount of Precious Blood remaining. You should mention this to the person who trains the sacristans. Perhaps they can be instructed to not put so much wine in the flagon

 

[centurionguard]

zab;

There are a lot of issues to address in these posts.

1. You said that you are a “former sacristan”. I admire you for trying to make sure that the Precious Blood is not abused. But it is no longer up to you to consume the Precious Blood after Mass. That is really the duty of the priest or deacon. In the event that there is some dire need for someone to care for the Precious Blood when the priest or deacon is not present to purify the vessels or unable for whatever health reason to consume the Precious Blood, then the sacristan should take care that these things are done properly. This matter needs to be addressed. The pastor needs to be told that there is a large amount of Precious Blood remaining after Communion and that the sacred vessels need to be purified. If you are still seeing a large amount of Precious Blood remaining when you serve as EMHC, you should report this to your pastor and/or other Liturgical staff members.

1. The priest should not be consecrating the wine in the flagon. The wine should be poured into the cups before it is consecrated. We have been instructed to fill the flagon to a certain point at each Mass. The priest or deacon determines how much to pour into the cups. Sometimes there is unconsecrated wine left in the flaggon and the is poured into a wine flask in the sacristy to be used at the next Mass. —Again, the priest needs to be told if he is consecrating too much wine if there is always a large amount of Precious Blood remaining. You should mention this to the person who trains the sacristans. Perhaps they can be instructed to not put so much wine in the flagon

In my parish there is no position as a Sacristan. That position has been totally eliminated due to liberated restructuring in the diocese due to a lack of priest most whom are elderly…Now there is a liturgical director and after Sunday Mass he quickly leaves the church with his wife to enjoy his leisure and haphazardly expects the EHMC’s to look after purifying the sacred vessels and securing the church doors before leaving.
If you had read my original post I have informed the priest about too much wine being consecrated. Perhaps it would be best not to purify the sacred vessels filled with the Blood of Christ and leave them inside the tabernacle until the next Mass on Thursday morning. Which ever way you want to look at it there is liturgical abuse. Oh ! and as far as the archbishop he’s liberal minded himself. Unfortunately; I happen to live in the most liberal archdiocese in Canada where liturgical abuses are common everyday occurrence.

 

[OhMalley]

I would like to know if there are any EMHC’s who have witnessed to much wine being consecrated during Mass and left remaining on the credence table in numerous chalices to be consumed and purified after Mass ?

I have witnessed this repeatedly while I was formerly the sacristan of my parish.
Now that I serve as a Eucharistic minister I still see this happen on a regular basis which bothers me terribly out of lack of respect for the Blood of Christ.

Worst of all most of the EMHC’s don’t want to consume the consecrated wine in fear of germs from the parishioners and getting drunk. On most Sundays even if I’m not scheduled to serve as EMHC I help out in the sacristy with the cleanup and purification of the sacred vessels after Mass and putting the priest and deacon vestments away.
Most times due to the priest poor health I am left consuming the large amount of consecrated wine left over.

Our parish priest seems ambilvalent in concerns toward the responsibility of the lay liturgical director who sets up for Mass and how many host are needed in ciborium (“to be consecrated”) before Mass as well as the amount of wine that is needed in the large crystal wine decanter. Yes I have addressed this problem respectfully with my parish priest. No solution as of yet. My fear is that if I don’t help out in the sacristy after Mass some EMHC’s will pour the consecrated wine down the sacrarium which I have witnessed on a number of occasions. My heart is really broken over all this lack of respect for the Blood of Christ. Any suggestions ?

This was a hot issue at my parish a few years ago. The pastor believed that chalices still containing the Precious Blood (and not simply chalices that still required purification) could simply be veiled until the end of the Mass. Two things happened. First, people contacted the bishop. Second, select altar servers and EMsHC simply stopped and took the time during Mass to ensure all the Precious Blood was consumed.

In time the pastor put a lot of pressure on the persons decanting the wine before Mass and it is a cardinal sin (no pun) to allow a chalice back into the sanctuary that has Precious Blood remaining in it.

Your “liturgical director” needs to be trained, replaced or hopefully eliminated. Your EMsHC had better learn how to consume excess Precious Blood or they too need to be replaced.

NB: This has nothing to do with being “liberal.” Good grief I detest the misuse of that word as a catch-all for all that is bad.

 

[zab]

zab;

In my parish there is no position as a Sacristan. That position has been totally eliminated due to liberated restructuring in the diocese due to a lack of priest most whom are elderly…Now there is a liturgical director and after Sunday Mass he quickly leaves the church with his wife to enjoy his leisure and haphazardly expects the EHMC’s to look after purifying the sacred vessels and securing the church doors before leaving.
If you had read my original post I have informed the priest about too much wine being consecrated. Perhaps it would be best not to purify the sacred vessels filled with the Blood of Christ and leave them inside the tabernacle until the next Mass on Thursday morning. Which ever way you want to look at it there is liturgical abuse. Oh ! and as far as the archbishop he’s liberal minded himself. Unfortunately; I happen to live in the most liberal archdiocese in Canada where liturgical abuses are common everyday occurrence.

I did read your post and it was quite troubling to read and to know how to respond. If the priest is in so ill health that he cannot consume the Precious Blood and purify the sacred vessels, perhaps he is forgetful too and needs to be reminded again and again not to consecrate so much wine. Our parish has a position for a head sacristan. He is given a stipend because he spends much more time than at the church than the rest of us volunteers. We also have a team of sacristans that are scheduled on certain days and certain months. Perhaps we can look at your situation as going for a “position” of sacristan to a volunteer at the Masses that you attend. I don’t think it would be proper and most likely there would not be room in the tabernacle to put the remaining Precious Blood. There may even be a directive against it but I haven’t researched it yet. You are truly in a difficult situation. I do not believe that the Precious Blood should be poured down the sacrarium. However if there is a dire need to do so because you do not want to consume so much of the Precious Blood by yourself and apparently no-one is willing to assist you, it would be best to dilute it with at least twice as much water (I would probably dilute it with 2 or 3 times the water. It is just a terrible situation that you have. And I truly am glad that you are there to try to prevent such abuse. Don’t forget to pray for your priests and bishops.

 

[OhMalley]

Just my humble opinion… Obey the Priest, he is in charge. However, it is not up to you to consume the left over consecrated wine, it is not good for you to drink large amounts of wine to “save it”, anymore than it is for the Priest. Whether we like it or not, somethings are not our decisions to make. If you just cannot tolerate the Priests way of doing things, go to the Bishop. It is not up to you to play sargent at arms at every mass to make sure it is done correctly. I say, if nothing else, relax, Jesus will handle it in His way. Trust Him.

Mom of 5

As old as this correction gets on these forums it’s appropriate in this context – it’s not wine – it’s the Body Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ.

I forgot to mention another thing we did. We went out and bought a graduated beaker to help us control how much wine we set out. We kept notes. One thing was clear: don’t worry about running out. Less is always better than more. Communicants will base their sip volume on how much is left in the chalice.

 

[m134e5]

Just my humble opinion… Obey the Priest, he is in charge. However, it is not up to you to consume the left over consecrated wine, it is not good for you to drink large amounts of wine to “save it”, anymore than it is for the Priest. Whether we like it or not, somethings are not our decisions to make. If you just cannot tolerate the Priests way of doing things, go to the Bishop. It is not up to you to play sargent at arms at every mass to make sure it is done correctly. I say, if nothing else, relax, Jesus will handle it in His way. Trust Him.

Mom of 5

Obedience is a good thing, however there are times when one needs to take matters into their own hands to prevent sacrilige against the Eucharist (for example, say the priest told the EMHC’s to pour the consecrated wine down the sacrarium- we should not obey the priest in a situation like that).

I agree we shouldn’t play seargent at arms at every Mass, but we should still do all we can to prevent the Eucharist from being desecrated.

 

[OhMalley]

I would like to know if there are any EMHC’s who have witnessed to much wine being consecrated during Mass and left remaining on the credence table in numerous chalices to be consumed and purified after Mass ?

I have witnessed this repeatedly while I was formerly the sacristan of my parish.
Now that I serve as a Eucharistic minister I still see this happen on a regular basis which bothers me terribly out of lack of respect for the Blood of Christ.

Worst of all most of the EMHC’s don’t want to consume the consecrated wine in fear of germs from the parishioners and getting drunk. On most Sundays even if I’m not scheduled to serve as EMHC I help out in the sacristy with the cleanup and purification of the sacred vessels after Mass and putting the priest and deacon vestments away.
Most times due to the priest poor health I am left consuming the large amount of consecrated wine left over.

Our parish priest seems ambilvalent in concerns toward the responsibility of the **lay liturgical director **who sets up for Mass and how many host are needed in ciborium (“to be consecrated”) before Mass as well as the amount of wine that is needed in the large crystal wine decanter. Yes I have addressed this problem respectfully with my parish priest. No solution as of yet. My fear is that if I don’t help out in the sacristy after Mass some EMHC’s will pour the consecrated wine down the sacrarium which I have witnessed on a number of occasions. My heart is really broken over all this lack of respect for the Blood of Christ. Any suggestions ?

I’m not sure what a “lay liturgical director” is but I would have a very serious talk with him. Offer to set-up the gifts. If he refuses dump out half the wine before it’s staged for Mass.

 

[RobbyS]

Now that’s a rather quaint ignoramus and impolite way of drawing a conclusion.
Where do you get the idea of prejudging me as taking control of this situation when you are not even present to witness what I see as well as other EMHC’s.
Isn’t that like jumping the gun and putting the the cart before the horse ?

What you describe is a lack of respect, maybe because some think it as just wine rather than the Blood of Christ. As Flannery O’Connor said, meaning something quite different," If it is only a symbol, then the hell with it!" Among even active Catholics, the loss of a sense of the Sacred has become widespread.

 

[puzzleannie]

we stopped offering the sacrament under both species in part for this very reason. For some reason, possibly flu, but this happened before the current epidemic, far fewer people had been accepting the chalice than formerly. He instructed the coordinators to put out less wine, but that was not always followed. When they forget, he pours a small amount into his chalice then waits for the server to take the carafe away before proceeding. The priest is the liturgist and he should address this problem. Remind him every week until the situation changes. The average parish has at least 8 EMHCs at any Sunday Mass so between them they ought to be able to consume any amount and if they won’t why are they serving in any case. This indicates improper instruction on the procedures and more importantly on the sacrament and the Real Presence which should be corrected immediately (as in, before next Sunday).