Liturgical Abuse

  • Thread starter Thread starter the_rev
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
T

the_rev

Guest
I was at a mass my spiritual director has the celebrant at… and well I noticed several liturgical abuses.

*He shook hands during the sign of peace
*Communion distributors came up before the priest received communion.

There were a few others, but do you think I should find a different spiritual director?
 
Nope. Does it really matter if the priest shook hands or the EM’s went up before the priest received the Eucharist? DOES IT REALLY MATTER? Are you at the mass to Worship the Lord or to keep track of rights and wrongs?
 
All in all, these are really pretty minor.

If there are any that are of greater abuse then I might question him as a spiritual director. If you have a very good relationship with him you might ask him (very nicely) about it.
 
40.png
dhgray:
Nope. Does it really matter if the priest shook hands or the EM’s went up before the priest received the Eucharist? DOES IT REALLY MATTER? Are you at the mass to Worship the Lord or to keep track of rights and wrongs?
Click to expand...
Yeah, it matters. One day, the EMHC’s are in the Sanctuary before the priest receives and the next day he’s using Wonder bread. Abuses start small, and laxity in little things can lead to great laxity and serious abuse. Mt. 25:19.
No, it doesn’t always happen, but it can. I’ve seen it and I’m fighting it now.
I’d have a respectful word with him about it.
And, of course, dh, we’re there to worship the Lord, but if we pay attention as we should, we also see the rights and wrongs.
 
Not sure if this is major, but he modified the Eucharistic Prayer.
 
40.png
Bill_A:
I dont really consider that liturgical abuse.
Click to expand...
Again, abuses start small. What are there, 8 Eucharistic prayers? Not one of those 8 was sufficient? That would get my hackles up, too.
 
If it causes you to question his direction then I would find a new spiritual director. I think it far to easy for us ALL to find a way to dismiss direction. We don’t need any extra help!
 
If he is in fact your spiritual director, why is it you can’t ask him directly to explain what he did, and explain your understanding of his actions. Get the facts, give the facts. Your simple questions may re-awaken him (you could be a spiritual director in this encounter).
 
40.png
dhgray:
Nope. Does it really matter if the priest shook hands or the EM’s went up before the priest received the Eucharist? DOES IT REALLY MATTER? Are you at the mass to Worship the Lord or to keep track of rights and wrongs?
Click to expand...
Of course it matters. These abuses are a pretty clear indication that the Priest does not ( may not) have the requisite intent thus invalidating the sacrament.

On the other hand, when does a simple “liturgical abuse” cross the threshold into an invalid form? Do these abuses meet the required form? Who will decide that? You?

Did the priest in Brisbane, who baptized in the name of the “Creator, Redeemer, and Sustainer” commit a “liturgical abuse” that really does not matter or did he jeopardize the souls of all who participated?
 
Munda cor meum:
Of course it matters. These abuses are a pretty clear indication that the Priest does not ( may not) have the requisite intent thus invalidating the sacrament.

On the other hand, when does a simple “liturgical abuse” cross the threshold into an invalid form? Do these abuses meet the required form? Who will decide that? You?

Did the priest in Brisbane, who baptized in the name of the “Creator, Redeemer, and Sustainer” commit a “liturgical abuse” that really does not matter or did he jeopardize the souls of all who participated?
Click to expand...
When the local bishop decides that the abuse was not so bad, that everyone liked it, and now it can be the norm.:banghead:
 
Hi
Just one point.
He shook hands during the sign of peace
Click to expand...
Why is this abusive?
from RS
  1. It is appropriate “that each one give the sign of peace only to those who are nearest and in a sober manner.” “The Priest may give the sign of peace to the ministers but always remains within the sanctuary, so as not to disturb the celebration. He does likewise if for a just reason he wishes to extend the sign of peace to some few of the faithful.” “As regards the sign to be exchanged, the manner is to be established by the Conference of Bishops in accordance with the dispositions and customs of the people,” and their acts are subject to the recognitio of the Apostolic See.152
Click to expand...
I agree that you should discuss these problems. If these things really bother you, you may want to find different Spiritual direction. But I would suggest that you pray very hard to the Holy Spirit before speaking to him, and even more importantly before you change. Perhaps you need to be less rigid and he can help you with this, but also you may be called to alert people to abuse. You need to discern which it is.

God bless you in your journey.
 
In many peoples opinion, I would not mind if they did away with the entire process of shaking hands, it seems so communal and not reverant. People today need entertainment 24/7, and shaking hands and the music seem so out of line. What happened to good old prayer and reflection during mass for what Jesus gave up for us?

Just a humble opinion
 
You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but it is norms, not opinions which determine whether or not there is an abuse.
 
40.png
terrcatholic:
In many peoples opinion, I would not mind if they did away with the entire process of shaking hands, it seems so communal and not reverant. People today need entertainment 24/7, and shaking hands and the music seem so out of line. What happened to good old prayer and reflection during mass for what Jesus gave up for us?

Just a humble opinion
Click to expand...
You would have loved Low Mass before the Council. No music, no ceremony/entertainment, sometimes not even a sermon but just private prayer and reflection. Nothing communal, including not even going to communion.
 
40.png
Mysty101:
You are certainly entitled to your opinion, but it is norms, not opinions which determine whether or not there is an abuse.
Click to expand...
No, it is usually the renaming of abuses into norms that determine whether we can still call it an abuse.

EMHC, lay readers, separating the tabernacle from the altar, girl altar boys, etc were all first abuses implemented without permission from the Holy See… local (or in some cases loco) bishops sought to appease the liturgical and worship committees and eventually called them the norms. And now, so they are… until Bishops like Chaput, Bruskowitz, Vasa, etc correct this problem
 
40.png
MrS:
No, it is usually the renaming of abuses into norms that determine whether we can still call it an abuse.

EMHC, lay readers, separating the tabernacle from the altar, girl altar boys, etc were all first abuses implemented without permission from the Holy See… local (or in some cases loco) bishops sought to appease the liturgical and worship committees and eventually called them the norms. And now, so they are… until Bishops like Chaput, Bruskowitz, Vasa, etc correct this problem
Click to expand...
We won, you lost. ha ha 😃 😃 😛 :yup: :clapping: :dancing: :rotfl:
 
40.png
MrS:
No, it is usually the renaming of abuses into norms that determine whether we can still call it an abuse.
Click to expand...
Once it is a norm, it is not an abuse, and you would do well to respect and support your shepherd.

Remember pride (which would definitely include putting your will over that of someone in lawful authority) is the most deadly of the capital sins.
 
Hmmmm, just sitting there, reflecting, praying, worshipping our Lord, kneeling to receive his body…what a Novel thought! Gee, it almost sounds like something we all have forgot about in this Nintendo age! And as far as shaking hands, when I look at pictures of the Last supper, never saw Jesus or any of the Apostles shaking hands there. If I have one huge problem with the Novus Ordo Mass it is the shaking of the hands, where did that come from?
40.png
katherine2:
You would have loved Low Mass before the Council. No music, no ceremony/entertainment, sometimes not even a sermon but just private prayer and reflection. Nothing communal, including not even going to communion.
Click to expand...
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top