Liturgical abuse!

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Cluny, what’s your point with this thread? It appears you are trying to convince everyone to relax and not get upset with deviations in our sacred liturgy.

The four marks of the Catholic Church are one, holy, catholic, and apostolic. The Church stands the test of time by sticking to these fundamentals. Our Mass is the outward expression of our faith and is supposed to be universal. Did the Church survive two thousand years because it remained consistent and true to Christ or because it acquisced to cultural demands and incorporated novelty when so demanded?

Since the Novus Ordo burst onto the scene and the subsequent experimenation with it, Sunday Mass attendence has dropped considerably. Sure there are individual parishes with strong numbers but overall our numbers are down dramatically. Europe is even worse off than North America and with the large Muslim immigration, Christianity will soon be insignificant there.

How do we weather the storms of secularism, scandal, and a loss of faith our modern society is designed for? If people don’t find spiritual fulfillment with the liturgy then they lose the motivation for getting up early on Sunday morning to attend Mass. Our dual income society makes Mass attendance more of a commitment with most families being time poor. The numbers indicate the Novus Ordo isn’t holding us together and the flock is being diminished. What does Christ say happens to those who lose their faith?

As faithful Catholics we have a duty to point out liturgical abuses for the sake of the Church and the souls of many. Of course some people may be too quick to make this accusation, but I’d rather have overly enthusiastic orthodox liturgists in the pews than no one at all. If you take something seriously then you’ll make it a priority in your life. This life is supposed to be about preparing for the next, namely the location. Liturgical abuses lead to diminished spiritual fulfillment which leads to lower attendance/faith and death.
i hope you are right. i know in my parish the priest keeps pressuring people to go after those who left the Church. i say fix things in the Church and people will come. meanwhile he keeps coming up with innovations to please the people. and attendance keeps getting smaller and smaller. i heard that some people came to Mass one time and when they heard people clapping they never came back.
 
I’ve been to 6 different parishes in two different countries, and often to two or more churches in each parish, in recent years. So that makes a few more than the average churchgoer.

The contrast between how the Novus Ordo is commonly ‘celebrated’ (another novel description) and how the Tridentine Mass is said, is significant. Literally and figuratively, a very different orientation.

I think the post-Vat. II nonsense is going to play itself out over the next ten to twenty years, as the faithful drift away from it and the old revolutionaries go to meet our Master and receive their reward.

Next up:

- Female deacons? (Because the men aren’t interested any more, they existed 1500 years ago, it’s more inclusive and egalitarian, we are all anointed, etc. etc.)

Couldn’t possibly happen? I dare say Paul VI never foresaw Communion In The Hand and EMCs either.

I was going to joke about sexy laydees dancing before the altar as the next innovation, but the Irish Catholic beat me to it in a recent issue with a photo of two colleens doing an Irish jig before the altar at a mass in Drogheda.

Time is one factor. The old '69 crew are heading for the retirement homes. Pope Benedict is conservative. He’s changing the N. O. Missal to bring it more in line with the old rite (and the Bible). But Bishops regularly ignore the Vatican and seem happy to reign over near-empty seminaries, merged parishes and co-habiting faithful ignorant of their faith.

Makes me envy old-timers who could just walk to a TLM and get a spiritual re-charge on a fine Sunday morning, have a chat with pals outside and then off to the races without having to wonder beforehand who or what was going to be present in the sanctuary.
 
PS: The key to grasping what’s being going on since Vat. II is to not pick on this or that novelty or abuse, but look at them all together, see how they came in over time, and then project into the future. And then compare and contrast to the old rite.

If the changes were good, people would be flocking back to the Church, the same way they flock to expositions of saints’ relics and Medjugorje. But the opposite has happened.

Time to dig out the ‘family silver’ and put on a rite worthy of the King of the Universe.
 
meanwhile he keeps coming up with innovations to please the people. and attendance keeps getting smaller and smaller. i heard that some people came to Mass one time and when they heard people clapping they never came back.
The inherent problem with novelties is that they soon wear out and then require new. Our Christian friends in the Fundamentalist/Evangelical churches prove that quite well. Our Western society is overwhelmed with novelty and entertainment so why would anyone go to Mass on Sunday looking for it? We go to Mass to pray and worship to God, receive Him in the Blessed Sacrament, recharge for our spiritual journey, not get a good laugh during a homily or hear a kicking rendition of As We Gather Round Your Table.
 
The inherent problem with novelties is that they soon wear out and then require new. Our Christian friends in the Fundamentalist/Evangelical churches prove that quite well. Our Western society is overwhelmed with novelty and entertainment so why would anyone go to Mass on Sunday looking for it? We go to Mass to pray and worship to God, receive Him in the Blessed Sacrament, recharge for our spiritual journey, not get a good laugh during a homily or hear a kicking rendition of As We Gather Round Your Table.
Good point.
In Fundamentalist/Evangelical churches people go to church to ‘hear the preacher’ (meaning the preacher is the center of the worship). Or even worse to ‘hear the praise and worship music’ (meaning the ‘worship team’ is the center of worship). Or STILL even worse, to ‘felllowship’ (meaning gossip becomes the center of worship).
I go to the Catholic church to pray, and recieve the Eucharist. It is spiritual exercise. Not sitting and staring at the preacher/worship team.
If the priest gives a good homily and the hymns are appropriate and sacred, that’s great. But they are secondary.
 
The inherent problem with novelties is that they soon wear out and then require new. Our Christian friends in the Fundamentalist/Evangelical churches prove that quite well. Our Western society is overwhelmed with novelty and entertainment so why would anyone go to Mass on Sunday looking for it? We go to Mass to pray and worship to God, receive Him in the Blessed Sacrament, recharge for our spiritual journey, not get a good laugh during a homily or hear a kicking rendition of As We Gather Round Your Table.
agreed. my aunt was telling me that some priests in brasil are even dancing with parishoners during the feasts of St John and St Peter. and he tells them there is nothing wrong wiht priests interacting with people in that manner. we would never see such thing during 60s and 70s and even 80s. this is starting now. priests just lost their place in the CC for some reason. what has gotten into their minds, i dont know.
 
Originally Posted by Ockham View Post
Cluny, what’s your point with this thread? It appears you are trying to convince everyone to relax and not get upset with deviations in our sacred liturgy.
Remember the little boy who cried, “Wolf”? He said it so often that when the real wolf finally came, nobody paid any attention.

My point is that the epithet “liturgical abuse” is used way too freely and too frequently for what are, at most, minor or accidental deviations. Most usually it gets used for things some writers have never seen before, or simply don’t like.
 
My point is that the epithet “liturgical abuse” is used way too freely and too frequently for what are, at most, minor or accidental deviations. Most usually it gets used for things some writers have never seen before, or simply don’t like.
At my geographical parish (which I no longer attend), the priest clearly violates the GIRM in many areas. If he were to do something different, you can bet your bottom dollar that I would initially question the practice, in order to make sure that he’s not introducing some other unapproved practice into the mass.

In addition, that parish has rock music at the mass; no, it’s not a LifeTeen mass, it’s the regular parishioners who are treated to an electric guitar, electric piano and a full drum set every Saturday night and Sunday. The next closest mass to me has the same musical set-up except they’ve added bongo drums to the mess, and the priest often skips or combines portions of the mass.

People who have the opportunity to attend reverent, orthodox parishes without blatant violations and hideous music seldom get on these forums and complain about the “little things”. It’s the rest of us poor rubes who have to drive an hour each way in order to get a decent mass that are the most frustrated. When your priest refuses to celebrate the mass properly, without innovations, then all the other irritations that you might ordinarily let slip by without comment begin to be magnified.
 
At my geographical parish (which I no longer attend), the priest clearly violates the GIRM in many areas. If he were to do something different, you can bet your bottom dollar that I would initially question the practice, in order to make sure that he’s not introducing some other unapproved practice into the mass.

In addition, that parish has rock music at the mass; no, it’s not a LifeTeen mass, it’s the regular parishioners who are treated to an electric guitar, electric piano and a full drum set every Saturday night and Sunday. The next closest mass to me has the same musical set-up except they’ve added bongo drums to themess, and the priest often skips or combines portions of the mass.

People who have the opportunity to attend reverent, orthodox parishes without blatant violations and hideous music seldom get on these forums and complain about the “little things”. It’s the rest of us poor rubes who have to drive an hour each way in order to get a decent mass that are the most frustrated.
no doubt there is so much confusion now and days in the Church. we are left to decide what it is and what it is not. Catholics are used to follow the Church, today Catholics have to decide what the Liturgy should be like because surely the priests and bishops are not doing it. sorry if i sound harshy.
 
Are you paying attention Cluny? Check out www.cathcon.blogspot.com for a current list of liturgical abuses.

This isn’t an issue of the boy crying wolf. It is the band that played on while the Titanic was sinking.
 
no doubt there is so much confusion now and days in the Church. we are left to decide what it is and what it is not. Catholics are used to follow the Church, today Catholics have to decide what the Liturgy should be like because surely the priests and bishops are not doing it. sorry if i sound harshy.
We don’t have to “decide what it should be like”; we have norms and guidelines published by the Church on how it should be.

ButI understand what you are saying, and I agree. I think it’s a horrendous shame that the laity in the pews has had to become the “liturgy police” and/or second-guess sermons because the priests and bishops in so many parishes have totally abandoned any pretense at orthodoxy.
 
At my geographical parish (which I no longer attend), the priest clearly violates the GIRM in many areas. If he were to do something different, you can bet your bottom dollar that I would initially question the practice, in order to make sure that he’s not introducing some other unapproved practice into the mass.

In addition, that parish has rock music at the mass; no, it’s not a LifeTeen mass, it’s the regular parishioners who are treated to an electric guitar, electric piano and a full drum set every Saturday night and Sunday. The next closest mass to me has the same musical set-up except they’ve added bongo drums to the mess, and the priest often skips or combines portions of the mass.

People who have the opportunity to attend reverent, orthodox parishes without blatant violations and hideous music seldom get on these forums and complain about the “little things”. It’s the rest of us poor rubes who have to drive an hour each way in order to get a decent mass that are the most frustrated. When your priest refuses to celebrate the mass properly, without innovations, then all the other irritations that you might ordinarily let slip by without comment begin to be magnified.
This was well said.

As one who desires a pure liturgy, I often find myself agonizing over even the smallest changes a priest makes to the liturgy and sometimes judging priests too harshly. After an opportunity to travel and unfortunately observe abuses far more grave than what I commonly see, I realized how good I have it. I also realized how fortunate I am when a visiting priest improvised the words of consecration.

I will keep praying for the intentions of Pope Benedict and for the Holy Catholic Church.

John
 
We don’t have to “decide what it should be like”; we have norms and guidelines published by the Church on how it should be.

ButI understand what you are saying, and I agree. I think it’s a horrendous shame that the laity in the pews has had to become the “liturgy police” and/or second-guess sermons because the priests and bishops in so many parishes have totally abandoned any pretense at orthodoxy.
do you know anything about Cardinal Rigali? in his enterview, he praises VII, he answered questions from people who called in. one thing he said when people asked about taking the communion rails being taken out. he said it is all up the each bishop. i think if it is all up to each bishop, then one can do whatever. that is why so many differences in the Mass.
 
At my geographical parish (which I no longer attend), the priest clearly violates the GIRM in many areas. If he were to do something different, you can bet your bottom dollar that I would initially question the practice, in order to make sure that he’s not introducing some other unapproved practice into the mass.

In addition, that parish has rock music at the mass; no, it’s not a LifeTeen mass, it’s the regular parishioners who are treated to an electric guitar, electric piano and a full drum set every Saturday night and Sunday. The next closest mass to me has the same musical set-up except they’ve added bongo drums to the mess, and the priest often skips or combines portions of the mass.

People who have the opportunity to attend reverent, orthodox parishes without blatant violations and hideous music seldom get on these forums and complain about the “little things”. It’s the rest of us poor rubes who have to drive an hour each way in order to get a decent mass that are the most frustrated. When your priest refuses to celebrate the mass properly, without innovations, then all the other irritations that you might ordinarily let slip by without comment begin to be magnified.
As a former evangelical I wish I understood why many parishes try to imitate the worship errors of the evangelical world. The evangelicals in America is starving for real worship and the Eucharist. They need to see Catholics are different, not the same.
 
As a former evangelical I wish I understood why many parishes try to imitate the worship errors of the evangelical world. The evangelicals in America is starving for real worship and the Eucharist. They need to see Catholics are different, not the same.
I’m also a former evangelical. I grew up in the church where Evelyn Christenson was the pastor’s wife. Gary Smalley was the associate pastor. John Ortberg was in my youth group–I played piano for him many times (he has a nice voice).

So you can see that I came from a pretty stellar evangelical background. Also, from childhood, I was extremely involved in my evangelical churches, especially in music, children’s, and youth ministries. Before we converted to Catholicism, we spent at least 5-6 evenings a week involved in one of many ministries.

I’m curious about your phrase, “worship errors.” Perhaps this should be another thread, but it does seem to fit in with this thread.

Could you please elaborate? What do you mean when you say “worship errors?” And in what ways do you see the Catholic Church incorporating Protestant ways into the Mass. Thanks.

I’ll be honest–I don’t see this at all. I live within easy driving distance of Willowcreek, and there is a Willowcreek plant in our city that attracts almost a tenth of our population every weekend (over 10,000 attend services). I’m also familiar with what’s happening in my childhood church, and my husband’s childhood church (a huge Assemblies of God church). IMO, evangelical worship has changed so much that it doesn’t in any way resemble a Catholic Mass. Innovation and “surprise” have become the watchwords of evangelical worship, and I honestly don’t see this happening in Catholic Mass. When my husband and I started attending Catholic Mass back in 2001, we felt like we were stepping back hundreds of years in time–and we were attending a very modern church with a textbook OF of the Mass! But to us, it was completely strange and foreign and ancient and traditional! I think many evangelicals have the same reaction–the OF Mass in no way, shape, or form resembles an evangelical worship service.

That’s where I’m coming from.
 
So as not to derail this thread, I’ll start a topic in the apologetics section when I get back later today.
I thought the word ‘worship errors’ might generate a response. 😃 Dissatisfaction with evangelical worship was one of the reasons I returned to the Catholic Church.
 
As a former evangelical I wish I understood why many parishes try to imitate the worship errors of the evangelical world. The evangelicals in America is starving for real worship and the Eucharist. They need to see Catholics are different, not the same.
The parish I attend here in Florida is very much like that and it’s driving me away. It’s very people focused, not very God focused. It seems to me like they are trying to imitate the Protestant churches around them, and as a result the Catholic identity is being lost.

The Pastor was bragging about how many former Baptists had converted recently, and my first thought was-“well, why not? It’s not like it’s any different from what they had in their old church.”

I understand the concern of reduced numbers, but I don’t think trying to water down our faith to make us more like Protestants is the answer.
 
And in what ways do you see the Catholic Church incorporating Protestant ways into the Mass. Thanks.
Bugnini’s Novus Ordo, clamshell church architecture, chatting in the pews, etc.
 
Bugnini’s Novus Ordo, clamshell church architecture, chatting in the pews, etc.
Ockham, I wouldn’t call these “Protestant ways”. I would call them “worldly ways” or “secular ways.”

When I was growing up (Conference Baptist in the late 1960s), we weren’t allowed to chat in the pews. Oh, my goodness, no! In fact, in the early part of the century, back when my parents were children, a person would get a very severe look and possibly even tapped on the shoulder by a deacon if they spoke about trivial things during church!

We were expected to enter the sanctuary (nave) and sit quietly without visiting. We were supposed to dress up, including hat and gloves and for girls and ladies, and shirts and ties for boys and men. Most of us had “Sunday clothes” and “Sunday shoes” that we wore only for church.

Even in the 1980s, there were signs outside the doors of our sanctuary that informed the people to be silent when they entered the sanctuary. For several years, our pastors and deacons would kneel at the front of the sanctuary for 10-15 minutes to discourage chit-chat and encourage prayer and silence in the santuary. Usually the organ or piano played softly to encourage quiet and peace in the sanctuary.

(Nowadays, in many Protestant churches, you are likely to see a praise and worship band playing/singing worshipful choruses and hymns before the worship service begins, again, to discourage visiting and encourage prayer and worship.)

And our architecture was not clamshell. I’m not sure what you call it–straight aisles leading up to the altar, straight pews, and for years, those pews were not padded! (Would that be “gothic” style?)

Most of the Protestant churches in our city, at least the older Protestant churches, are exactly the same way–straight and narrow pews and aisles.

As for today, well, I know of very few Protestant churches with clamshell architecture. In fact, I don’t know of any! We have hundreds of Protestant churches in our city, and I’ve played piano at quite a few of them! I honestly can’t think of any “clamshells.” (Maybe it has to do with the fact that we live in the Midwest amidst rows of corn and beans, rather than at a beach with ocean waves and sand!)

Today, most of the new Protestant churches have a very “flexible” sanctuary, with chairs that can be removed so that the sanctuary can be used as a fellowship hall, theater in the round, game room, lecture hall, concert hall, gymnasium, etc. In fact, they are often referred to as “muliti-purpose rooms” rather than “sanctuary.”

I don’t know what Bugnini’s Novus Ordo is. Sorry.

At any rate, I think a lot of the things that you are unhappy about with Catholic Mass did not come from Protestants at all, but rather, from the world, especially the academic and corporate world. Back in the early 1960s, a lot of classrooms started rearranging to allow for maximum interaction between students and teachers, and there is a lot of chattering, discussion, debate, and panel-type presentations. I can remember the first year when our teacher arranged all the desks in a circle (I was in 3rd grade!) Now many classrooms are like that, especially in colleges. And many corporate affairs (conferences, seminars, etc.) are the same way. It’s all so open and customer (student) centered.

I think that this kind of thing has permeated both Catholic and Protestant churches, and I think you’ll find that a lot of Protestants are just as unhappy with the carnival atmosphere as Catholics are. One backlash against this free-for-all atmosphere is happening in evangelical circles–the “emergent” church or “alternative” church, which often makes use of various ancient practices like silence, candlelight, no music, lectio divina, and contemplation.

Certainly the Protestant churches are more amenable to innovations because many of the denominations, especially evangelical, have always utilized a very flexible liturgy. But I don’t think it’s at all accurate to say that the Protestant churches originated these kinds of behaviors. I hope you will re-consider your theory and think about what I am saying, and perhaps consider not making such a statement about Protestants in the future. I honestly don’t think Protestants are to blame.
 
Bugnini’s Novus Ordo, clamshell church architecture, chatting in the pews, etc.
  1. There’s nothing intrinsically Protestant in the Novus Ordo. I’m sure you can count on the fingers of one hand the numbers of Protestants that actually use it.
  2. There is no such thing as “Protestant” or “Catholic” architecture. If the Catholic Church uses it, it is by definition, Catholic. (No one ever said you had to have good taste to be a Catholic.)
  3. Chatting in the pews, while not directed by the rubrics, is merely bad manners and not Protestant in and of itself. In the Baptist church where I was raised, there were signs that said, “Silence” as one entered the name.
 
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