Liturgical abuse!

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So as not to derail this thread, I’ll start a topic in the apologetics section when I get back later today.
I thought the word ‘worship errors’ might generate a response. 😃 Dissatisfaction with evangelical worship was one of the reasons I returned to the Catholic Church.
Thank you, I’ll look for it.

My husband and I were the same way. In the last year that we were in an evangelical church, we actually sat in the lobby until the 20-Minute Praise and Worship Workout was over. We hated it that much!
 
Thank you, I’ll look for it.

My husband and I were the same way. In the last year that we were in an evangelical church, we actually sat in the lobby until the 20-Minute Praise and Worship Workout was over. We hated it that much!
I called it “The Superiority of Catholic Worship”.
As the magnet toward Rome was getting stronger, I was still attending occasionally a Christian Missionary Alliance church. One Sunday, they had great, uplifting, hand clapping, hand-raising music. Very emotional. Everyone was having a great time.
Except me.
I was bored to tears and it all seemed so lifeless and artificial. What would have attracted me years before, had no more meaning to me. I knew then I was no longer evangelical. The CMA church in question is filled with a fine group of people who remain my friends, including the pastor. It wasn’t them so much. It’s just that I could no longer pretend to be something I was not.
 
I called it “The Superiority of Catholic Worship”.
As the magnet toward Rome was getting stronger, I was still attending occasionally a Christian Missionary Alliance church. One Sunday, they had great, uplifting, hand clapping, hand-raising music. Very emotional. Everyone was having a great time.
Except me.
I was bored to tears and it all seemed so lifeless and artificial. What would have attracted me years before, had no more meaning to me. I knew then I was no longer evangelical. The CMA church in question is filled with a fine group of people who remain my friends, including the pastor. It wasn’t them so much. It’s just that I could no longer pretend to be something I was not.
And that’s what is happening at the Catholic parish here-lots of hand clapping music, and applause sessions. We clap for the choir, we clap for visitors, we clap for birthdays, we clap for anniversaries…and on it goes. We have “greet your neighbor” moments-plus the sign of peace. Some weeks you shake the same person’s hand 3 or 4 times. Then there’s the hand holding during the Our Father, and the raising of the hands periodically through the liturgy. These are all things that I saw in the Baptist church my Dad went to once in a while when I was a kid.
 
Maybe, but there’s also the Consecration and Holy Communion, which surely makes up for all that. Or it should.
 
Maybe, but there’s also the Consecration and Holy Communion, which surely makes up for all that. Or it should.
Which is why I still attend, but it is not the center of the liturgy the way I’ve experienced it in other Churches. The Consecration is rushed, spoken so fast that if you didn’t know the words you’d have no idea what was going on. Of course, when the sermon lasts nearly 40 minutes and the choir has a “meditation” afterwards, then I guess you have to gallop through it to get people out before the next Mass.
 
And that’s what is happening at the Catholic parish here-lots of hand clapping music, and applause sessions. We clap for the choir, we clap for visitors, we clap for birthdays, we clap for anniversaries…and on it goes. We have “greet your neighbor” moments-plus the sign of peace. Some weeks you shake the same person’s hand 3 or 4 times. Then there’s the hand holding during the Our Father, and the raising of the hands periodically through the liturgy. These are all things that I saw in the Baptist church my Dad went to once in a while when I was a kid.
Well, then the priest has let things get out of hand. Is the priest coming up with these things on his own? Or is he giving in to the wants of the congregation? The priest is supposed to be the presider of the liturgy.
 
Well, then the priest has let things get out of hand. Is the priest coming up with these things on his own? Or is he giving in to the wants of the congregation? The priest is supposed to be the presider of the liturgy.
Since he’s the one telling us who to applaud for, and he’s the one saying the speedy consecration and the 40 minute sermon-I’m guessing it’s safe to say he’s ok with it.

Most of the parishioners seem to be as well. It’s a very happy bunch of folks. The 10 am Mass is standing room only week after week. I would imagine if he went to a more traditional approach it would upset them.
 
Catholics make a mistake when comparing recent innovations with Protestantism.

What they mean is: "These things do not belong in Catholicism as I understand it and look like something that I imagine you’d see in Protestant churches. If I ever went to one."

One way to sell more of a product is to constantly update it. Like a make of motor car. Or soap powder. “The new Jauguar XJ12b; now with added heated rear seats!”. Someone who already has a Jaguar XJ12 now will feel deprived. Someone who’s got the new model feels superior. For a short while. It’s interesting. For a short while.

I don’t think it works in religion. Bringing heaven to earth should not need gimmicks. It needs holy priests who heed Christ’s promptings in their heart, follow the rubrics and leave their egotism in the narthex (foyer). Likewise the congregation.

Focusing on the congregation and the priest is the reverse of what should happen in a good Mass. It is Christ we come to Mass commune with, not our neighbour, and to put away our self-involvement for an hour.

Not to shake hands, go ‘aaw’ over the little girl reading the epistle, clap the choir, distribute communion like you were a deacon yourself, hear a few quips from the priest before, during and near the end of Mass etc.

And that’s before you get into the differences in the rubrics themselves. When I understood what the ‘pro multis’ controversy meant I was shocked and angry. What a swizz! For a generation of clerics who pride themselves on being ‘liturgical scholars’ that was/is scandalous.
 
Cluny, what’s your point with this thread? It appears you are trying to convince everyone to relax and not get upset with deviations in our sacred liturgy.

The four marks of the Catholic Church are one, holy, catholic, and apostolic. The Church stands the test of time by sticking to these fundamentals. Our Mass is the outward expression of our faith and is supposed to be universal.
The Mass is universal, and the two important parts are the Liturgy of the Word and the Liturgy of the Eucharist. That is why, when going to a Byzantine rite Mass, or a Maronite rite Mass, I cans see and understand the parallels to botht he EF and the OF, and why, if I attend either the OF or the EF, I know exactly where I am in the Mass. It would appear you ;do not see this.
Did the Church survive two thousand years because it remained consistent and true to Christ or because it acquisced to cultural demands and incorporated novelty when so demanded?]/QUOTE]That question betrays a tremendous amount of ignorance of Church history; the answer is that it is both/and, not either/or. Church history is replete with cultural additions and changes.
Ockham;5280105:
Since the Novus Ordo burst onto the scene and the subsequent experimenation with it, Sunday Mass attendence has dropped considerably. Sure there are individual parishes with strong numbers but overall our numbers are down dramatically. Europe is even worse off than North America and with the large Muslim immigration, Christianity will soon be insignificant there.
However, this is the same tired old post hoc, ergo propter hoc argument that keeps being made, and it ignores the fact that Mass attendance was already dropping before Vatican 2 even occured, and the rate of change did very much at all after v
atican 2; in other words, we continued the slow leakage. If the Change to the Of was the source, then the statistics would show a sudden drop off after it was introduced, or at least an accelleration of the rate; but neither occured. A much more cogent arguem3nt can be made that the cause of so many leaving has nothign to do with the OF, or even Vatican 2, but has to do with the Pill, and the sexual promiscuity it engendered, and the backlash that came with the introduction of Humanae Vitae. That backlash, that outright dismissal of a papal encyclical has ahd more to do with disobedience in the Church than any part of the OF or its entirety.
How do we weather the storms of secularism, scandal, and a loss of faith our modern society is designed for? If people don’t find spiritual fulfillment with the liturgy then they lose the motivation for getting up early on Sunday morning to attend Mass. Our dual income society makes Mass attendance more of a commitment with most families being time poor. The numbers indicate the Novus Ordo isn’t holding us together and the flock is being diminished. What does Christ say happens to those who lose their faith?
To begin with, you; have a Pollyanna attitude about spiritual fulfillment pre-Vatican 2; there is nothing that distinctly shows that there was any change in spiritual fulfillment or lack thereof other than the repeated statements by those who were pre-Vatican 2 that they so soundly appreciated the change to the vernacular. Oh, and by the way, that is the group who has the highest rate of attendance still, all at the OF. By any logic, one would expect that group to have the greatest fall-oof, but they actaully have the higest rate of attendance.
As faithful Catholics we have a duty to point out liturgical abuses for the sake of the Church and the souls of many. Of course some people may be too quick to make this accusation, but I’d rather have overly enthusiastic orthodox liturgists in the pews than no one at all. If you take something seriously then you’ll make it a priority in your life. This life is supposed to be about preparing for the next, namely the location. Liturgical abuses lead to diminished spiritual fulfillment which leads to lower attendance/faith and death.
And I would rather have people who go to Mass to worship Christ, than a pew full of liturgical police who are more interested in trying to catch the priest at some issue than they are to join in the sacrificial offering of Christ to the Father, and to fulfill Christ’s command: take and eat.
 
The parish I attend here in Florida is very much like that and it’s driving me away. It’s very people focused, not very God focused. It seems to me like they are trying to imitate the Protestant churches around them, and as a result the Catholic identity is being lost.

The Pastor was bragging about how many former Baptists had converted recently, and my first thought was-“well, why not? It’s not like it’s any different from what they had in their old church.”

I understand the concern of reduced numbers, but I don’t think trying to water down our faith to make us more like Protestants is the answer.
It would appear then that you ahve never attended a Baptist service; if you had, you would immediately recognize that no one is trying to imitate the Protestant churches around them.
 
I don’t know what Bugnini’s Novus Ordo is. Sorry.
It is the snotty reference about the Most Holy Sacrifice of the Mass said according to the Ordinary Form, which has been approved of and said by the last three Popes as well as the current Pope.
 
And that’s before you get into the differences in the rubrics themselves. When I understood what the ‘pro multis’ controversy meant I was shocked and angry. What a swizz! For a generation of clerics who pride themselves on being ‘liturgical scholars’ that was/is scandalous.
I have no idea what you heard, but I am sorry that you were shocked and angry.

That “pro multis” should be translated as “many” of “for the many” goes without saying; that is the ocrrect translation.
However, theologically, both “for many” and “for all” all liturgically correct. Christ did die for all. However not all will be saved. It is not incorrect theologically to say that Christ died for all; but it is an incorrect translation of the prayer to subsitute “all” for “many”.

And a translation is not a rubric; the term rubric means red, which is how the rules for liturgical actions are written; they are in red ink.
 
OTJM:

The problem seems to me that people are predisposed to leap to post hoc ergo propter hoc conclusions, since they are often viable in many areas.

I agree that the pill, the social revolution of the late 1950’s to early 1970’s, the sexual revolution, and the mass rejection of Humanae Vitae are likely the major cause of continuing decline. As is the current sex-driven media culture.

Cafeteriaism is alive and well amongst the laity, sadly.

But at the same time, reverent liturgies, be they OF, EF, Byz DL, Syriac Quorbono, or Coptic DL, coupled with good solid teaching, and a willingness to teach by laity and clergy alike, results in growing parishes and incoming converts.

We also must remember: The church is a hospital for sinners, not a haven for saints.
 
It would appear then that you ahve never attended a Baptist service; if you had, you would immediately recognize that no one is trying to imitate the Protestant churches around them.
I certainly agree with this. A lot of what many of the posters describe as “Protestant” does NOT resemble evangelical Protestant churches. Perhaps it has a resemblance to some of the mainline Protestant services (Lutheran, Episcopal, UCC, Presbyterian, Methodism, etc.), but these churches are losing so many members and are trying to change their worship service to look more like evangelical Protestant worship services.

But whenever I hear Catholics accuse their Mass of looking Protestant, quite often their description of the Protestantisms doesn’t sound like any Protestant church I attended during my years as a Protestant!

As I said in an earlier post, I think a lot of the so-called “Protestantisms” in Catholic Mass are actually secularisms adapted from the academic (especially college/university) and business worlds. Protestant churches started adopting these practices in the late 60s and early 70s, and many Protestants are just as unhappy about the secular feeling of their worship service as Catholics are about their Mass. Please stop blaming the Protestant churches!

Boy, is this ever a sneaky plot/strategy by Satan–make sure Catholics don’t notice the “world, the flesh, and the devil” in their midst. Instead, turn their accusatory eyes towards their fellow Christians (Protestants are Christians by virtue of water baptism) and make Christians even more divided than they already are.
 
Last night i was watching the Mass on EWTN. it was beautifull a mix of vernacular and Latin. and the priest was talking about a letter that the holy father sent to all priest, calling them to holiness and to fullfill their calling which is to give their lives for the sheep. he went to say how priests are tempted to turn to themselves and become proud. this year is going to be dedicated to the priesthood. a calling to revive the Sacrament of confession which has been discourage for so long. it was all about conversion of the heart of priests. he also said that we as laity should also engaged in this conversion.
hopefully things will take a step in the right direction.

Blessings to you my brothers and sisters.
 
It would appear then that you ahve never attended a Baptist service; if you had, you would immediately recognize that no one is trying to imitate the Protestant churches around them.
Baptists are the most non-liturgical of all Protestants, second only to Charismatics. I can guarentee no Baptist would feel comfortable in any type of Catholic service.
 
As I said in an earlier post, I think a lot of the so-called “Protestantisms” in Catholic Mass are actually secularisms adapted from the academic (especially college/university) and business worlds. Protestant churches started adopting these practices in the late 60s and early 70s, and many Protestants are just as unhappy about the secular feeling of their worship service as Catholics are about their Mass. Please stop blaming the Protestant churches!
Very true. When one examines Protestant church services prior to the 1960s, although not liturgical, they were certainly far more regimented. Many an old Baptist would lament to me how they missed ‘the old way of worshiping’. Music becomes a major issue in these churches. They are usually split between two groups:
1st group: We need to attract the younger crowd with contemporary music. 2nd group: We need the old fashioned hymns! (which are actually no more than 100 years old).
I had a curious comment made once from an Episcopal college professor:
“The changes of Vatican 2 reached far beyond the Catholic Church.”
 
IBut whenever I hear Catholics accuse their Mass of looking Protestant, quite often their description of the Protestantisms doesn’t sound like any Protestant church I attended during my years as a Protestant!
Cat, you sound like a very nice lady and I enjoy reading many of your posts so pleae take my next comment as friendly advice. It would be good for you to broaden your perspective on this subject. There is quite a lot more to Catholicism, Christianity, and religion in general than the city you grew up in and the experiences you have.

However, I have a couple questions for you if you don’t mind based on your personal experiences. You said earlier that when you were a little girl people weren’t allowed to talk in church. Why is that? In a Catholic church you are in the presence of Christ in the tabernacle, but what’s the motivation in a non-Catholic? Also, I was in a mainline Protestant church last month (for a choral receital) and noticed they don’t have kneelers. What type of praying goes on in the Protestant churches you know of?

I’m not blaming Protestants for “protestantizing” our Mass. However, I believe there are Catholics who think this is the best course and as you pointed out, the mainline Protestant churches are losing memebers too.
 
However, I have a couple questions for you if you don’t mind based on your personal experiences. You said earlier that when you were a little girl people weren’t allowed to talk in church. Why is that? In a Catholic church you are in the presence of Christ in the tabernacle, but what’s the motivation in a non-Catholic? Also, I was in a mainline Protestant church last month (for a choral receital) and noticed they don’t have kneelers. What type of praying goes on in the Protestant churches you know of?
CAT says she went to a Disciple of Christ church.
My wife tells me the (at least in the one she attended as a child) it was far more liturgical than what one might encounter in many Baptist and evangelical services. People were quiet out of reverance and respect for God. It was not an informal ‘meeting’, it was God’s house.
 
I don’t know what Bugnini’s Novus Ordo is. Sorry.
No apology needed. Until recently I didn’t know what that term meant either, and I am supposed to have the advantage of a Catholic education.

Annibale Bugnini is the man who wrote the New Order (Novus Ordo) of the Mass, or the Ordinary Form as it is now called. It seems the intention was to make the Mass easier for non-Catholics to understand making it easier for the flock to be reunited. You are a convert so perhaps changing the Mass worked in your case. However, it is the opinion of many, that watering down the liturgy lost more sheep then it ever attracted.

Annibale Bugnini
The main author of the Novus Ordo
By Michael Davies

“We must strip from our Catholic prayers and from the Catholic liturgy everything which can be the shadow of a stumbling block for our separated brethren that is for the Prostestants.” - Archbishop Annibale Bugnini, main author of the New Mass, L’Osservatore Romano, March 19, 1965

Archbishop Annibale Bugnini, who died in Rome on 3 July 1982, was described in an obituary in The Times as “one of the most unusual figures in the Vatican’s diplomatic service.” It would be more than euphemistic to describe the Archbishop’s career as simply “unusual”. There can be no doubt at all that the entire ethos of Catholicism within the Roman Rite has been changed profoundly by the liturgical revolution which has followed the Second Vatican Council.

As Father Kenneth Baker SJ remarked in his editorial in the February 1979 issue of the Homiletic and Pastoral Review: “We have been overwhelmed with changes in the Church at all levels, but it is the liturgical revolution which touches all of us intimately and immediately.”

Commentators from every shade of theological opinion have argued that we have undergone a revolution rather than a reform since the Council. Professor Peter L. Berger, a Lutheran sociologist, insists that no other term will do, adding: “If a thoroughly malicious sociologist, bent on injuring the Catholic community as much as possible had been an adviser to the Church, he could hardly have done a better job.”

Professor Dietrich von Hildebrand expressed himself in even more forthright terms: “Truly, if one of the devils in C.S. Lewis’ The Screwtape Letters had been entrusted with the ruin of the liturgy he could not have done it better.”

Major Conquest Archbishop Bugnini was the most influential figure in the implementation of this liturgical revolution, which he described in 1974 as “a major conquest of the Catholic Church.”

catholicapologetics.info/modernproblems/newmass/bugnini.html
 
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