Liturgical Abuses - So what's the big deal?

[Quaere_Verum]

O.K., bad title! I confess I selected it to get people to check in. That’s because I sincerely want to understand something, so I am trying to attract lots of (name removed by moderator)ut.

To skip the details & get straight to the question go to the section in bold otherwise read on.

I consider myself an Orthodox Catholic who longs for the traditional Church of old. I like that every “i” was dotted & “t” crossed. I like that everyone knew exactly what to do & expect and when to do it. It’s no longer that way, however.

The existence of liturgical abuses is very upsetting. Thank God, our parish is not committing any gross abuses; however, the minor ones have become a distraction. Hence, I ask these questions. Are minor deviations from the GIRM really that important? Also, is it ever O.K., as a parishoner, to just put up with these so that the Sacrifice of the Mass can be celebrated without the extraneous concern of minor details?

I thank you ahead of time for your comments.

God Bless You,
Quaere Verum
Seek the Truth

 

[John_Lilburne]

According to the Instruction of 2004, Redemptionis Sacramentum, which John Paul II “ordered to be published and to be observed immediately by all concerned”:

“[183.] In an altogether particular manner, let everyone do all that is in their power to ensure that the Most Holy Sacrament of the Eucharist will be protected from any and every irreverence or distortion and that all abuses be thoroughly corrected. This is a most serious duty incumbent upon each and every one, and all are bound to carry it out without any favouritism.”

 

[Quaere_Verum]

John Lilburne:

According to the Instruction of 2004, Redemptionis Sacramentum, which John Paul II “ordered to be published and to be observed immediately by all concerned”:

“[183.] In an altogether particular manner, let everyone do all that is in their power to ensure that the Most Holy Sacrament of the Eucharist will be protected from any and every irreverence or distortion and that all abuses be thoroughly corrected. This is a most serious duty incumbent upon each and every one, and all are bound to carry it out without any favouritism.”

Well that’s pretty clear isn’t it John? Thanks for the quote.

 

[domineutvideam]

I fully agree that that Redemptionis Sacramentum is very explicit on this matter. It certainly does not leave much “wiggle-room”.

Unfortunately, I think very few Catholics are even aware of this document. I myself did not come across it until a couple weeks ago. Furthermore, it seems that there are many priests who have also not read this document. If laity and priests alike are not aware of what constitutes a liturgical abuse, then it’s quite difficult for them to guard against liturgical abuses. This document does provide a good summary of the most common liturgical abuses.

I think that there are many reasons why people avoid approaching priests when they witness liturgical abuses. Of course, no reason is justifiable when the question at hand is the respect of the Blessed Sacrament, the full divinity and humanity of our Lord and King who humbles Himself to enter into our presence.

Some may ask, if abuses are taking place, how could one in good conscience not say anything? Well, first of all, parishoners may not even be aware that a liturgical abuse is taking place. If they think something is out of place they may not be certain and thus may hesitate to say something because they do not know if their concern is well-founded. If they are people pleasers, peace makers, or people who avoid conflict at all cost they very well may not want to cause tension between themselves and their parish priest. Perhaps the parish where this is taking place is the only parish where they can attend mass and they are concerned that if they cause conflict with the priest or parish community they may not be welcomed (either explicity or implicitly) in the church. Perhaps they are young and are concerned that the priest will dismiss them as ignorant or arrogant. On the other hand, perhaps they are studying theology and they are concerned that the priest may dismiss them as being prideful or coming across as a “know-it-all”. Maybe they think that someone else has already done the tough job of pointing it out to the priest or that it’s already being dealt with. Maybe they have already discussed previous liturgical abuses with the priest and have been dismissed and so figure “why even bother”. If they haven’t read Redemptionis Sacramentum, maybe they don’t even realize they have a right, and even a responsibility to say something.

I’m not saying that any of these reasons are an excuse. Not at all. I am just pointing out some reasons why people might try and justify not saying anything when they witness a liturgical abuse.

 

[thistle]

Quaere Verum:

O.K., bad title! I confess I selected it to get people to check in. That’s because I sincerely want to understand something, so I am trying to attract lots of (name removed by moderator)ut.

To skip the details & get straight to the question go to the section in bold otherwise read on.

I consider myself an Orthodox Catholic who longs for the traditional Church of old. I like that every “i” was dotted & “t” crossed. I like that everyone knew exactly what to do & expect and when to do it. It’s no longer that way, however.

The existence of liturgical abuses is very upsetting. Thank God, our parish is not committing any gross abuses; however, the minor ones have become a distraction. Hence, I ask these questions. Are minor deviations from the GIRM really that important? Also, is it ever O.K., as a parishoner, to just put up with these so that the Sacrifice of the Mass can be celebrated without the extraneous concern of minor details?

I thank you ahead of time for your comments.

God Bless You,
Quaere Verum
Seek the Truth

It depends what you mean. It makes no difference whether it is the TLM or NO mass there should certainly not be any deliberate abuses. Priests are human and they can make mistakes but deliberate abuses should not happen.
The question then is how do you define an abuse. I do not define an abuse as something which is not stated in the GIRM. If we take take holding hands at the Our Father as example, from the many posts I’ve seen in these forums traditionalists would consider that as an abuse because the GIRM does not say it can be done. I do not go along with that view because it takes place in churches where it is allowed, otherwise it would be forbidden. If it is not forbidden then it is not an abuse.
I’m not sure if that’s the type of thing you mean or not but anyway that’s my ten cents worth.

 

[domineutvideam]

I wouldn’t be so sure of the “if it’s not forbidden then it’s not an abuse” approach. We should be seeking a morality of excellence rather than a morality of obligation. We should use our freedom to pursue excellence in how we treat the Blessed Sacrament rather than measuring each step we take to see how close we can step to the line without crossing over. Imagine if I were to apply the concept that if it’s not explicitly forbidden then it’s not abuse to my own moral life. . .

 

[Eileen_T]

I agree that not all priests read encyclicals, motu proprios or instructions, I suspect they may not have read the GIRM, if they even have a copy.

From personal experience I have found they (some at least) do not like errors pointed out to them, even when gently and respectfully done.

The big deal, for me, is that it is liturgical sloppiness which, incrementally, can lead to serious abuses.

 

[domineutvideam]

I agree. Repetitive venial sin, if unattended to, usually leads to mortal sin. That makes this whole situation that much more frightening.

 

[Confiteor]

thistle:

It depends what you mean. It makes no difference whether it is the TLM or NO mass there should certainly not be any deliberate abuses. Priests are human and they can make mistakes but deliberate abuses should not happen.
The question then is how do you define an abuse. I do not define an abuse as something which is not stated in the GIRM. If we take take holding hands at the Our Father as example, from the many posts I’ve seen in these forums traditionalists would consider that as an abuse because the GIRM does not say it can be done. I do not go along with that view because it takes place in churches where it is allowed, otherwise it would be forbidden. If it is not forbidden then it is not an abuse.
I’m not sure if that’s the type of thing you mean or not but anyway that’s my ten cents worth.

Just because something is allowed in a particular liturgy by a particular pastor/bishop doesn’t mean it is okay… That may be a reflection on the lack of care or knowledge or fortitude of the bishop. (cf. the clergy sexual abuse crisis wherein things were allowed until they reached an intolerable PR and financial and spiritual; crisis). .The rule is that nothing can be added, subtracted, or changed (unless stated as an option in the GIRM).

 

[thistle]

Confiteor:

Just because something is allowed in a particular liturgy by a particular pastor/bishop doesn’t mean it is okay… That may be a reflection on the lack of care or knowledge or fortitude of the bishop. (cf. the clergy sexual abuse crisis wherein things were allowed until they reached an intolerable PR and financial and spiritual; crisis). .The rule is that nothing can be added, subtracted, or changed (unless stated as an option in the GIRM).

I don’t agree with that at all. Global things which take place in most Masses in every country like holding hands during the Our Father, Singing the Our Father which traditionalist claim are abuses (sometimes they claim they are innovations) are allowed specifically by the bishops. Are you seriously trying to tell me thousands of bishops in so many countries have no clue if this is allowed or not. I think they know better than you and me.

An example of how permission is made known can be seen at the following website (got it from poster needmorelight in another thread).

www.rcam.org/news/2005/no_ban_on_our_father_singing_holding_hands.htm

 

[netmilsmom]

thistle:

Global things which take place in most Masses in every country like holding hands during the Our Father

Could you please give us a reference for this?

Most Masses??? I think that’s a stretch.

 

[Quaere_Verum]

Thank you domineutvideam for the Redemptionis Sacramentum link. I will have to spend some time reading and trying to understand it. But with all due respect to the writers of the document and to Pope John II who ordered it written, what does to use “all that is in their power” to make changes mean? Presenting abuses to the priest? Yes! Presenting abuses to the bishop? Yes! Presenting it to the Liturgical Committee? O.K. Nagging? I don’t know about that one. Saying you will not return to that church until even minor abuses are corrected? Hmmm! How about a hunger strike? I don’t think so.

Just trying to understand.

 

[thistle]

netmil(name removed by moderator):

Could you please give us a reference for this?

Most Masses??? I think that’s a stretch.

Well it obviously is widespread in the USA/Canada from all the threads I’ve read. I have lived in Scotland, England, Germany, Singapore, Hong Kong, and now the Philippines. Through my previous job I had to travel extensively in Asia and Europe (other than the countries I named above) and I can say that all Masses I attended holding hands was the norm. I also play backgammon on the internet (for fun, not gambling) and I’ve made friends with people in many countries including Latin America. If I find people who are Catholic I’ll ask about things like this. So while I cannot say holding hands happens in every Mass in every country my experience would indicate that it is the global norm. I am happy to stand corrected if you have extensive experience that contradicts mine.

 

[theMutant]

An abuse is a deliberate deviation from the rubrics or the words of the Liturgy. While I don’t like holding hands during the Our Father, the rubrics (to the best of my knowledge) say nothing about it. However, there are reasonable limits on this. If you choose to hold hands, don’t assume that everyone else thinks it’s a great idea. Accept it if the people next to you don’t want to do so. I’ve been in parishes where people leave their pews to stretch across the aisles to hold hands and even link one row to the next to form “an endless chain.” The reason that I consider this an abuse is that the faithful are not supposed to leave the pews at this point in the Mass. It also creates a huge distraction while people jostle around. Also, at parishes where this type of thing is done, it creates an unwarranted pressure on those who choose not to hold hands or to move into the aisles.

I know of a case where a man was standing next to the aisle with his hands clasped in prayer in the traditional manner for the Our Father. The person from the other side came all the way across to try to get him to hold hands and even nudged him a couple of times. This is abuse and the priest should not allow it.

In regard to dealing with abuses. The first thing to do is to make sure that what has been done is, in fact, not part of the Mass. There are a huge number of options that make for nearly 40 million legitimate variations of the liturgy. If, after careful consideration you feel that something is being done that shouldn’t, exercise patience in all of the following steps. Do not expect things to turn around immediately. Give the people you talk to time, plenty of time, to consider what you have to say and to put it into effect. The second, is not to assume ill will. Approach the priest with respect to discuss the matter; not in a confrontational manner. If you are not satisfied, then go to the pastor (assuming that the priest in step 2 was not the pastor. The fourth step is to write to the bishop. Again, do this with respect for all involved. Do not make accusations but explain that you are concerned that this is occurring and that the priest and pastor do not seem to be addressing it.

To address the question in the title of the thread. The big deal is that the Mass is not the worship of the local parish community. It is not the worship of the local Church (diocese). It is not even the worship of the collected local Churches of the region (such as, the United States). It is the worship of the Rite of the Church to which you belong and of the Church as a whole. It is not ours to do with as we please. This has been repeated by Rome many times and references to this have already been given by other posters in this thread. Catholics are free to gather together to worship God in their own way (as long as that way does not constitute some form of rejection of any part of the Catholic Faith) outside of the liturgy.

 

[Quaere_Verum]

thistle:

I’m not sure if that’s the type of thing you mean or not but anyway that’s my ten cents worth.

Thistle, thanks for your 10c; I feel lucky to have gotten 5 times as much as I’d expected.

In Redemptionis Sacramentum we read

"Grave Matters

[173.] Although the gravity of a matter is to be judged in accordance with the common teaching of the Church and the norms established by her, objectively to be considered among grave matters is anything that puts at risk the validity and dignity of the Most Holy Eucharist…"

I’ve never experienced anything that put at risk the “validity and dignity of the Most Holy Eucharist” as a regular occurance at Mass, and for that I am grateful. So I guess what thistle mentioned, those things which do not occur in the GIRM, may be more what I have questions about? It’s time to do some in depth research - read the GIRM, read the Redemptionis Sacramentum, ask, write some letters, etc. It sounds like a major project, & I’m sure would prove to be well worth the effort.

 

[Quaere_Verum]

theMutant] In regard to dealing with abuses. The first thing to do is to make sure that what has been done is, in fact, not part of the Mass. There are a huge number of options that make for nearly 40 million legitimate variations of the liturgy. If, after careful consideration you feel that something is being done that shouldn’t, exercise patience in all of the following steps. Do not expect things to turn around immediately. Give the people you talk to time, plenty of time, to consider what you have to say and to put it into effect. The second, is not to assume ill will. Approach the priest with respect to discuss the matter; not in a confrontational manner. If you are not satisfied, then go to the pastor (assuming that the priest in step 2 was not the pastor. The fourth step is to write to the bishop. Again, do this with respect for all involved. Do not make accusations but explain that you are concerned that this is occurring and that the priest and pastor do not seem to be addressing it.

Thank you for these excellent suggestions. I guess a hunger strike is not necessary nor desireable.

To address the question in the title of the thread. The big deal is that the Mass is not the worship of the local parish community. It is not the worship of the local Church (diocese). It is not even the worship of the collected local Churches of the region (such as, the United States). It is the worship of the Rite of the Church to which you belong and of the Church as a whole. It is not ours to do with as we please. This has been repeated by Rome many times and references to this have already been given by other posters in this thread. Catholics are free to gather together to worship God in their own way (as long as that way does not constitute some form of rejection of any part of the Catholic Faith) outside of the liturgy.

O.K., I have been humbled. Yes it is a big deal.

 

[Rebecca_New]

Thanks, I needed that. I will not mind holding hands during the Our Father, I will not mind holding hands during the Our Father, I will…

 

[paramedicgirl]

Quaere Verum:

O.K., bad title! I confess I selected it to get people to check in. That’s because I sincerely want to understand something, so I am trying to attract lots of (name removed by moderator)ut.

To skip the details & get straight to the question go to the section in bold otherwise read on.

I consider myself an Orthodox Catholic who longs for the traditional Church of old. I like that every “i” was dotted & “t” crossed. I like that everyone knew exactly what to do & expect and when to do it. It’s no longer that way, however.

The existence of liturgical abuses is very upsetting. Thank God, our parish is not committing any gross abuses; however, the minor ones have become a distraction. Hence, I ask these questions. Are minor deviations from the GIRM really that important? Also, is it ever O.K., as a parishoner, to just put up with these so that the Sacrifice of the Mass can be celebrated without the extraneous concern of minor details?

I thank you ahead of time for your comments.

God Bless You,
Quaere Verum
Seek the Truth

I think some of the problem is that the people and the priests have no idea they are practicing liturgical abuses. You get a mixed reaction when it is brought to their attention.

Yesterday, I asked the 2 ladies in charge of the altar servers if they could please train the girls to keep their hands folded in prayer so the children would stop twirling their crosses, playing with their hair, and biting and inspecting their nails. They even use their feet to kick at the little carpets they kneel on.

When the subject of altar girls originating as an abuse came up, (we have almost exclusively girls) one lady said that women have made progress in the world, from gaining the right to vote to now being altar servers at Mass. Some people just don’t get it. It is all about the power to have things their way. These are the people who perpetuate liturgical abuses.

 

[Joysong]

Dear Paramedicgirl,

When the subject of altar girls originating as an abuse came up, (we have almost exclusively girls) one lady said that women have made progress in the world, from gaining the right to vote to now being altar servers at Mass. Some people just don’t get it. It is all about the power to have things their way. These are the people who perpetuate liturgical abuses.

And it is posts like these without a foundation for truth that allege the permissions are an abuse, and this perpetuates the error publicly.

Please review Pope John Paul’s words to female altar servers in one of his addresses:
adoremus.org/JPII-Altarservers.html

1. I have spoken of friendship with Jesus. How happy I would be if something more sprang from this friendship! How beautiful it would be if some of you were to discover a vocation to the priesthood! Jesus Christ has urgent need of youths who will be at his disposition with generosity and no reservations. Moreover, might not the Lord also call one or two of you girls to embrace the consecrated life to serve the Church and the brothers and sisters? Even for those who wish to be united in marriage, the service of altar servers teaches that a real union must always include readiness for reciprocal and free service.

 

[netmilsmom]

thistle:

Well it obviously is widespread in the USA/Canada from all the threads I’ve read. I have lived in Scotland, England, Germany, Singapore, Hong Kong, and now the Philippines. Through my previous job I had to travel extensively in Asia and Europe (other than the countries I named above) and I can say that all Masses I attended holding hands was the norm. I also play backgammon on the internet (for fun, not gambling) and I’ve made friends with people in many countries including Latin America. If I find people who are Catholic I’ll ask about things like this. So while I cannot say holding hands happens in every Mass in every country my experience would indicate that it is the global norm. I am happy to stand corrected if you have extensive experience that contradicts mine.

Well, both of us have done research in the area. I find that this innovation is creeping into many parishes around the world. (through asking on worldwide websites as well as friends and family in Australia who travel extensively) However to say that it is a norm in MOST parishes would be something that would warrant some citation of reference.