Liturgical Abuses

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JoeyWarren

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Please provide in detail a list of known liturgical abuses that are happening in your local church. And substantiate the claim by citing with full text the supporting phrases and/or paragraph.

TIA.
 
I am sorry but “why” would you want this information?:confused:
 
JoeyWarren said:
Please provide in detail a list of known liturgical abuses that are happening in your local church. And substantiate the claim by citing with full text the supporting phrases and/or paragraph.

TIA.
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If we do, will you promise to fix the abuses? 😃
 
wifeandmomoftwo said:
I am sorry but “why” would you want this information?:confused:
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To fully understand what constitutes a Liturgical Abuse. There are so many complaints on this forum, that it is hard to distinguish what is a factual abuse from a personal opinion of what an abuse is. Most cite an abuse but fail to provide the supporting documentation whether it be a blurb or several paragraphs.
 
JoeyWarren said:
To fully understand what constitutes a Liturgical Abuse. There are so many complaints on this forum, that it is hard to distinguish what is a factual abuse from a personal opinion of what an abuse is. Most cite an abuse but fail to provide the supporting documentation whether it be a blurb or several paragraphs.
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Take this quiz - the answers are all documented.
 
There are diocesan norms and there are the universal norms. The norms regulate the liturgy. You should be able to find your diocesan norms on your diocese’s website. The norms should be respected. Straying from the norms is a liturgical abuse. The norms will include special cases. Such as, it is the norm in America to stand for communion, but it states that those kneeling can not be refused communion because of their posture.
 
No one yet has provided any abuse that is going on in their church yet? So I assume the abuses are non-existent?
 
JoeyWarren said:
No one yet has provided any abuse that is going on in their church yet? So I assume the abuses are non-existent?
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There are none going on in my home parish. Nor in the surrounding parishes. I live in an extremely Orthodox diocese. But the fact that I don’t see them on a daily basis, doesn’t mean that they don’t exist.

Flagrant abuses are truly few and far between. And probably occurring much less now that in the past. But that still doesn’t mean that in an ordinary parish you won’t find the words of the consecration mis-spoken or ad-libbed on occasion. That is probably the most serious abuse going on. I doubt there are any more ‘pepsi and ritz cracker’ masses.

Now you will find, altar girls, improperly dressed priests, horrible music, and hordes of EMHCs. But those are not really abuses. They are partly a matter of taste (music), debatable but technically official (altar girls), tacky (lots of EMHCs), and perhaps reprehensible (wrong vestements), but not truly abusive.

Is that what you wanted to know?

My own solution is that thank God daily for the wonderful priests of my parish and to pray for strong vocations.
 
Joey, I rarely see the term abuse on here, but I do see disrespectful quite often. Perhaps you are confusing the two phrases? Could also be confusing issues of illicitity, invalidity and abuse? These phrases are often confused as well.

Abuse could be someone referring to more liberties taken that necessary that do not necessarily make the Mass illicit or invalid. I could see an extreme number of extraordinary ministers be an abuse of liberties that does not necessarily mean illicitity or invalidity.

Use of glass vessals would be an abuse, yet does not affect the validity of the Sacrament.

I can see how respect can come into play as well. Like who gets mroe respect, the Liturgy Director, the Music Director, the Enviroment Coordinator, the EMHC Coordinator, the Server Trainer, the Ushers, the Lectors or the Priest? Whose personality is more important? Whose opinion has more weight? Who should be allowed more latitude to effect the direction of the Liturgy?

Joes you are seeing people in this forum who are fed up with lay persons and religious alike who inflict their personality on them. One reason why we now have a Pope who has opened up the EF for the world in such a dramatic way, was to allow people to see that what is happening in front of them is beyond personality and goes into the very essence of our existence.
 
JoeyWarren said:
No one yet has provided any abuse that is going on in their church yet? So I assume the abuses are non-existent?
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I mentioned a laundry list in my “Jenga” Mass thread. It was preposterous how flagrantly the priest cast aside the regulations for the proper celebration of Mass.

This past Sunday, the priest celebrant at my parish changed some of the words of the Ordinary to “attune” better to the feast of Christ the King. He also omitted the Kyrie after the Confiteor. He added St. Joseph’s name to the Eucharistic Prayer (no. II, which I don’t think he’s allowed to do). Luckily, he didn’t pour the Precious Blood from the Chalice to another cup (like this priest usually does).
 
Glass vessels
Hymn instead of Responsorial Psalm
Priest leaves sanctuary a sign of peace
EMof HC approach altar before time
Priest changed words of creed
On the fly use of inclusive language when Priest reads Gospel
Changing words of Conscration - “When you do this remember me” - friends instead of disciples
Pouring of wine after Consecration
EMofHC blessing children
Inviting children and adults around the altar
Self communicating (rare)
 
heres a list of the things ive seen at my home parish:
  1. senior pastor uses ceramic chalice
  2. occasionally a lay person is asked to give a reflection instead of a homily
  3. priest occasionally leaves sanctuary to give homily
  4. once priest left sanctuary to give the kiss of peace to family members at a funeral
  5. risen christ statue given pride of place in center of apse (tecnically the processional crucifix fufills this requirement, but still…)
  6. deacon occasionally self communicates (only celerating priests/bishops are allowed to self communicate, not deacons and not even priests/bishops in choir)
    im sure theres more, but thats all i can think of for now
even with all this, i would still say that my parish is above average when compared to the rest of the US
 
Now you will find, altar girls, improperly dressed priests, horrible music, and hordes of EMHCs. But those are not really abuses. They are partly a matter of taste (music), debatable but technically official (altar girls), tacky (lots of EMHCs), and perhaps reprehensible (wrong vestements), but not truly abusive.
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Is that what you wanted to know?
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Yes.

The problem on this forum is that these people claim that these are actual and factual abuses. They cannot distinguish the FACTUAL abuse from the PERSONAL TASTE AND OPINION
 
  • Priest always leaves the Sanctuary to give the homily (can’t remember where I read that that was not appropriate–can someone advise me?);
  • Priest leaves the Sanctuary and gives the Peace to many, every Mass (c.f. Rdeptionis Sacramentum 72);
  • Laity (EMHCs) purify the Sacred Vessels (c.f. RS 119)
  • Unnecessary use of three EMHCs, always (c.f. RS 157, “[they] may not be appointed”);
  • EMHCs picking up hosts before congregants communicating, therefore the last Host is placed back in the ciborium!
  • To the best of my knowledge, the “songs” sung at Mass have not been approved by the Bishops Conference (c.f. GIRM 48).
 
Glass vessels - I never witnessed this abuse - Is this a Factual abuse? The requirment is I believe "Noble, Durable, and Sacred"

Hymn instead of Responsorial Psalm - I never witnessed this abuse - Are you sure the Hymn is not an approved “Responsorial Pslam Hymn” from an approved Music Book?

Priest leaves sanctuary a sign of peace - I never witnessed this abuse

EMof HC approach altar before time - Enlighten me on this.

Priest changed words of creed**- I never witnessed this abuse**

On the fly use of inclusive language when Priest reads Gospel -? please explain.

Changing words of Conscration - “When you do this remember me” - friends instead of disciples - I never witnessed this abuse

Pouring of wine after Consecration **- please expound. **

EMofHC blessing children - Is this an abuse?

Inviting children and adults around the altar - I saw this at a Life-Teen mass, but it was halted. I did not know that this was an abuse but someone evidently did.

Self communicating (rare) I never witnessed this abuse
 
I think there are huge differences between abuses (of which there is more than one grade), delicts and style choices.

Using my parish as an example, I would say consecrating the Precious Blood in a flagon and then pouring it out into separate chalice is an abuse (or “deformation” in our Pope’s lexicon.)

The priest holding hands with the deacon and altar servers during the Lord’s Prayer is a delict.

Funky looking (to me) chasubles would be a matter of style choice.
 
Mr. Warren, you seem to think that because you personally have never witnessed an abuse, that abuses don’t ever occur. Can you not just take people at their word that they have seen an abuse? Is that so hard? I’ve only been “around” Catholicism a short time, and I have even witnessed abuses in person and I can count on two hands the number of parishes I’ve been to, not to mention the countless abuses I’ve seen on the internet.
 
Joey,
JoeyWarren said:
Glass vessels - I never witnessed this abuse - Is this a Factual abuse? The requirment is I believe "Noble, Durable, and Sacred"
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General Instructions on the Roman Missal (n. 328):
“Sacred vessels are to be made from precious metal. If they are made from metal that rusts or from a metal less precious than gold, then ordinarily they should be gilded on the inside.”

Para 329 goes on to say that “sacred vessels may also be made from other solid materials that, according to the common estimation in each region, are precious, for example, ebony or other hard woods, provided that such materials are suited to sacred use and do not easily break or deteriorate”, but stipulates this talks about the Episcopal Conference requiring a recognitio from the Holy See.
Pouring of wine after Consecration **- please expound. **
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Redemptionis Sacramentum 106:

“However, the pouring of the Blood of Christ after the consecration from one vessel to another is completely to be avoided, lest anything should happen that would be to the detriment of so great a mystery. Never to be used for containing the Blood of the Lord are flagons, bowls, or other vessels that are not fully in accord with the established norms.”

Re “On the fly use of inclusive language when Priest reads Gospel”, surely the Priest should, or even must, stick to the translation approved for use in his jurisdiction.
 
JoeyWarren said:
Glass vessels **- I never witnessed this abuse - Is this a Factual abuse? The requirment is I believe “Noble, Durable, and Sacred”
Redemtionis Sacramentum - I have witnessed it every week
Fact
**
Hymn instead of Responsorial Psalm **- I never witnessed this abuse - Are you sure the Hymn is not an approved “Responsorial Pslam Hymn” from an approved Music Book?

Nope. - I have witnessed it every week until about 3 months ago **
**Fact

** Priest leaves sanctuary a sign of peace **- I never witnessed this abuse
Witnessed every week - 2 of three priests do it. One stays put and makes a wavin gesture to the congregation
Fact
**
EMof HC approach altar before time - Enlighten me on this.
EMoHC go up onto the Altar at sign of peace - Redemtionis Sacramentum says they are not to approach until after Priest receives. Witnessed every week
Fact

Priest changed words of creed**- I never witnessed this abuse
One Priest changes the word man to flesh
Wintessed every time he says Mass
Fact
**
On the fly use of inclusive language when Priest reads Gospel **-? please explain.
One Priest will change Gospel accounts where a person is generally referred to as man to persons or such.
Witnessed every time he reads Gospel
Fact
**
Changing words of Conscration - “When you do this remember me” - friends instead of disciples **- I never witnessed this abuse
Witnessed every time this Priest says Mass
Fact
**
Pouring of wine after Consecration **- please expound.
At all Masses there is a chalice and flagon on the altar with wine. After consecration and at the Lamb of God deacon of EMofHC will pour precious blood into glass vessels for distribution. This is not allowed per the Girm. Dubium was applied for and denied by the Vatican.
Any pouring must take place before consecration.
Fact
**
EMofHC blessing children - **Is this an abuse?
Yes. Only Priest and Deacons can bless at Mass.
Fact
**
Inviting children and adults around the altar - **I saw this at a Life-Teen mass, but it was halted. I did not know that this was an abuse but someone evidently did.
They did it at our youth Masses as well as during First Holy Communion.
Fact
**
Self communicating (rare) I never witnessed this abuse
**Precious Blood was left on Altar - EMofHC came by picked it up and received.
Fact

**
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