Liturgical Abuses

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Originally Posted by JoeyWarren forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cad/viewpost.gif
Glass vessels Redemtionis Sacramentum - I have witnessed it every week
Fact
**Have you confront your Priest and Pastoral Council and Liturgical Council about this?

**Priest leaves sanctuary a sign of peace Witnessed every week - 2 of three priests do it. One stays put and makes a wavin gesture to the congregation
Fact
**Have you confront your Priest and Pastoral Council and Liturgical Council about this?
**
EMof HC approach altar before time EMoHC go up onto the Altar at sign of peace - Redemtionis Sacramentum says they are not to approach until after Priest receives. Witnessed every week
Fact
Have you confront your Priest and Pastoral Council and Liturgical Council about this?
**Since this is an abuse at my church, I will contact my EMHC Coordinator(who happens to be my Grand Knight and I his Financial Secretary) about this. **

Priest changed words of creed**- One Priest changes the word man to flesh Wintessed every time he says Mass
Fact**
**Have you confront your Priest and Pastoral Council and Liturgical Council about this?
**
On the fly use of inclusive language when Priest reads Gospel One Priest will change Gospel accounts where a person is generally referred to as man to persons or such.
Witnessed every time he reads Gospel
Fact
Have you confront your Priest and Pastoral Council and Liturgical Council about this?

Changing words of Conscration - “When you do this remember me” - friends instead of disciples Witnessed every time this Priest says Mass Fact
Have you confront your Priest and Pastoral Council and Liturgical Council about this?
**
Pouring of wine after Consecration
At all Masses there is a chalice and flagon on the altar with wine. After consecration and at the Lamb of God deacon of EMofHC will pour precious blood into glass vessels for distribution. This is not allowed per the Girm. Dubium was applied for and denied by the Vatican.
Any pouring must take place before consecration.
Fact**
Have you confront your Priest and Pastoral Council and Liturgical Council about this?

EMofHC blessing children - Yes. Only Priest and Deacons can bless at Mass. Fact
**Have you confront your Priest and Pastoral Council and Liturgical Council about this? ****
**
Inviting children and adults around the altar - **They did it at our youth Masses as well as during First Holy Communion.
Fact **
***Have you confront your Priest and Pastoral Council and Liturgical Council about this? **

Self communicating (rare) Precious Blood was left on Altar - EMofHC came by picked it up and received. Fact*
***Have you confront your Priest and Pastoral Council and Liturgical Council about this? ***
If have answered Yes to all my questions then your Parish is truely lost and there more than like nothing more can be done other than write a complaint to your Bishop, Cardinal, and as a last resort to the Vatican itself
If you have answered No to any one question then stop complaining and whining and go confront. You have nothing to fear but God.
 
SemperFidelis said:
Mr. Warren, you seem to think that because you personally have never witnessed an abuse, that abuses don’t ever occur. Can you not just take people at their word that they have seen an abuse?..
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We are talking more about the definition more than anything else. For example holding hands during the Lord’s Prayer is NOT a “liturgical abuse.” It’s not specificed – it’s something the Church would call a “delict”, YET man people will tour the aisles mumbling that it’s an ABUSE!

What this really does is cheapen the use, eg. “the sky is falling, the sky is falling” so when true abuses do come along, they aften fall on desensitized ears.
 
JoeyWarren said:
Originally Posted by JoeyWarren forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cad/viewpost.gif
Glass vessels Redemtionis Sacramentum - I have witnessed it every week
Fact
Have you confront your Priest and Pastoral Council and Liturgical Council about this?

Priest leaves sanctuary a sign of peace Witnessed every week - 2 of three priests do it. One stays put and makes a wavin gesture to the congregation
Fact
Have you confront your Priest and Pastoral Council and Liturgical Council about this?

EMof HC approach altar before time EMoHC go up onto the Altar at sign of peace - Redemtionis Sacramentum says they are not to approach until after Priest receives. Witnessed every week
Fact
Have you confront your Priest and Pastoral Council and Liturgical Council about this?

**Since this is an abuse at my church, I will contact my EMHC Coordinator(who happens to be my Grand Knight and I his Financial Secretary) about this. **

Priest changed words of creed**- One Priest changes the word man to flesh Wintessed every time he says Mass
Fact**
Have you confront your Priest and Pastoral Council and Liturgical Council about this?

On the fly use of inclusive language when Priest reads Gospel One Priest will change Gospel accounts where a person is generally referred to as man to persons or such.
Witnessed every time he reads Gospel
Fact
Have you confront your Priest and Pastoral Council and Liturgical Council about this?

Changing words of Conscration - “When you do this remember me” - friends instead of disciples Witnessed every time this Priest says Mass Fact
Have you confront your Priest and Pastoral Council and Liturgical Council about this?

Pouring of wine after Consecration**
At all Masses there is a chalice and flagon on the altar with wine. After consecration and at the Lamb of God deacon of EMofHC will pour precious blood into glass vessels for distribution. This is not allowed per the Girm. Dubium was applied for and denied by the Vatican.
Any pouring must take place before consecration.
Fact**
Have you confront your Priest and Pastoral Council and Liturgical Council about this?

EMofHC blessing children - Yes. Only Priest and Deacons can bless at Mass. Fact
**Have you confront your Priest and Pastoral Council and Liturgical Council about this? ****
**
Inviting children and adults around the altar - **They did it at our youth Masses as well as during First Holy Communion.
Fact **
***Have you confront your Priest and Pastoral Council and Liturgical Council about this? ***

Self communicating (rare) Precious Blood was left on Altar - EMofHC came by picked it up and received. Fact
***Have you confront your Priest and Pastoral Council and Liturgical Council about this? ***

If have answered Yes to all my questions then your Parish is truely lost and there more than like nothing more can be done other than write a complaint to your Bishop, Cardinal, and as a last resort to the Vatican itself

If you have answered No to any one question then stop complaining and whining and go confront. You have nothing to fear but God.
Click to expand...
Yes these continued after approached. The answer was something to the effect - these are just rules, these things are not important. Most complaints were ignored. The vast majority of parishioners do not even know the difference.

We have a new pastor now and a liturgy commitee. We will see what transpires in the near term.
 
hold on a second. Didnt you ask us to list abuses? If so why are you telling us to stop complaining? Don’t get mad at us for answering your own question.
 
piusphilistine said:
We are talking more about the definition more than anything else. For example holding hands during the Lord’s Prayer is NOT a “liturgical abuse.” It’s not specificed – it’s something the Church would call a “delict”, YET man people will tour the aisles mumbling that it’s an ABUSE!

What this really does is cheapen the use, eg. “the sky is falling, the sky is falling” so when true abuses do come along, they aften fall on desensitized ears.
Click to expand...
Where did I ever mention holding hands during the Our Father? I’ve seen many things listed above, that ACTUALLY ARE abuses and I have witnessed some myself. I didn’t say anything more or anything less. Mr. Warren answers every situation of an abuse with “I’ve never seen this” therefore making it seem that just because he hasn’t witnessed it, it doesn’t occur. Quit reading so much into my posts.
 
piusphilistine said:
We are talking more about the definition more than anything else. For example holding hands during the Lord’s Prayer is NOT a “liturgical abuse.” It’s not specificed – it’s something the Church would call a “delict”, YET man people will tour the aisles mumbling that it’s an ABUSE!. . .
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Pius,

I would recommend avoiding the term “delict” since the notion of delict has a meaning in canonical tradition that entails something weightier than this example would sustain. A delict is an offense to which ecclesiastical law attaches a penalty (e.g., see cc. 1364 – 1398). Even then, the evaluation of a delict by the superior who must impose or declare penalty operative involves an assessment of culpability, liability, mitigating and aggravating curcumstances, etc…
 
You make a lot of references to the Parish Council and the Liturgy Council, are these actually canonically approved bodies holding authority over the Liturgy? Or are they another way to put too much power in the hands of laity?
 
cameron_lansing said:
Pius,

I would recommend avoiding the term “delict” since the notion of delict has a meaning in canonical tradition that entails something weightier than this example would sustain. A delict is an offense to which ecclesiastical law attaches a penalty (e.g., see cc. 1364 – 1398). Even then, the evaluation of a delict by the superior who must impose or declare penalty operative involves an assessment of culpability, liability, mitigating and aggravating curcumstances, etc…
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Thanks John. Cardinal Arinze used that term to describe that “level” of action – clearly to differentiate it from “abuse.” Similarly, the Pope used “deformations” – I think largely to avoid the over-used and inflammatory term “abuse.”
 
adamsaj said:
hold on a second. Didnt you ask us to list abuses? If so why are you telling us to stop complaining? Don’t get mad at us for answering your own question.
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Not mad, you stating the simple truth. Read the original post and ask yourself, “Has anyone complied?”

Here is the OP for your edification:

Please provide in detail a list of known liturgical abuses that are happening in your local church. And **substantiate the claim by citing with full text the supporting phrases and/or paragraph. **

**Nobody has met this requirement yet. **
 
chotock said:
You make a lot of references to the Parish Council and the Liturgy Council, are these actually canonically approved bodies holding authority over the Liturgy? Or are they another way to put too much power in the hands of laity?
Click to expand...
The Second Vatican Council affirmed the laity’s participation in the Mission of Jesus Christ by challenging all the baptized with a call to holiness, to ministry and to community. The Council no longer placed the focus of this call only on the ordained, but on the laity as well. As Pastoral Councils continued to define themselves, the theology of shared responsibility and collaboration that flows from the Vatican II documents began to take hold in the 90’s. The focus shifted from the temporal activities to the pastoral activities of the parish.

This focus by the Pastoral Council on the pastoral activity of the parish embraces the mission and the ministry of the Church: worship and prayer, proclaiming the Gospel and teaching, social action, care of the poor, the sick and dying and bringing God’s healing power to everyone. Pastoral activity is reflected in the parish by the way the Pastoral Council responds to the mission.
 
buffalo said:
Yes these continued after approached. The answer was something to the effect - these are just rules, these things are not important. Most complaints were ignored. The vast majority of parishioners do not even know the difference.
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You’ve got to rock the boat and rattle some chains just like Martin Luther did. Would the Church have reformed itself if Martin Luther had not gone into a tiraid?
We have a new pastor now and a liturgy commitee. We will see what transpires in the near term.
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Offer a novena for it or put it before the Blessed Sacrament. :gopray: Do you have at least an “Adoration Hour”?
 
SemperFidelis said:
Where did I ever mention holding hands during the Our Father? I’ve seen many things listed above, that ACTUALLY ARE abuses and I have witnessed some myself. I didn’t say anything more or anything less.** Mr. Warren answers every situation of an abuse with “I’ve never seen this” therefore making it seem that just because he hasn’t witnessed it, it doesn’t occur.** .
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Hey Jarhead, Quit reading so much into my posts!

P.S. Ex-Navy 😃

I would like to know a general geological region of the churches where these abuses are taking place?

SemperFideles, where have you witnessed these abuses in Alabama?
 
Where did I ever mention holding hands during the Our Father? I’ve seen many things listed above, that ACTUALLY ARE abuses and I have witnessed some myself. I didn’t say anything more or anything less.
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It probably was not you, but people tend to add the false abuses alongside the true abuses. Unintentional or Deliberate?
 
buffalo said:
Take this quiz - the answers are all documented.
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This is great! I bookmarked the site cause it gives the resource for the rule. It includes some items that have just been mentioned in the posts. If something such as hand-holding during the Our Father is repudiated by the Notitiae, why should we have the authority to make our own rules? We cannot just have opinions, but must know what comes from Rome. I hear the words of the Creed changed all the time. That’s in the above mentioned quiz.
 
JoeyWarren said:
Please provide in detail a list of known liturgical abuses that are happening in your local church. And substantiate the claim by citing with full text the supporting phrases and/or paragraph.
Click to expand...
Fine. We’ll do it your way. Here is a smattering of the abuses from the “Jenga” Mass. I’ll give references to the GIRM only, although please note that Redemptionis Sacramentum covers some of these as well (specifically the delegating of duties for ordained ministers to the non-ordained: RS 153).

We began Mass seated (priest included), not standing.
“The faithful should stand from the beginning of the Entrance chant, or while the priest approaches the altar, until the end of the Collect.]” (GIRM 43)
“Once the Entrance chant is concluded, the priest and faithful, all standing, make the Sign of the Cross.” (GIRM 124)

The priest did not approach nor kiss the altar at the beginning (nor end) of Mass.
“When they reach the sanctuary, the priest, the deacon, and the ministers reverence the altar with a profound bow. … [T]he priest and deacon then kiss the altar itself.]” (GIRM 49)
“[T]he priest venerates the altar with a kiss and … departs.]” (169)

There was no Act of Penitence; we went directly to the Kyrie
“The Act of Penitence follows. Afterwards, the Kyrie is sung or said, in keeping with the rubrics (cf. above, no. 52).” (GIRM 125)

The readings were proclaimed seated, and not from the ambo.
“In the celebration of the Mass with a congregation, the readings are always proclaimed from the ambo.” (GIRM 58)
“Then the lector goes to the ambo and, from the Lectionary already placed there before Mass, proclaims the first reading, to which all listen.” (GIRM 128)

The priest had a layman read the Gospel.
“[T]he Gospel [should be proclaimed] by a deacon or, in his absence, a priest other than the celebrant. If, however, a deacon or another priest is not present, the priest celebrant himself should read the Gospel.” (GIRM 59)
“The lector is instituted to proclaim the readings from Sacred Scripture, with the exception of the Gospel.” (GIRM 99)

We were seated for the Gospel.
“The faithful should stand … while the Gospel itself is proclaimed.]” (GIRM 43)

I think that’s good enough for now. There were truncated prayers, altered words (including “Let us proclaim our faith”), inclusive language, and added “rituals” during the Offertory.
 
Joey, for my money you would have been better off not knowing, just as Adam and Eve and the rest of us would have been better off had they not lost their innocence. Watching for abuses can become a very distracting preoccupation when one is trying to pray the Mass.
It also often has the fallout of making people angry when it ain’t done right. Don’t for heaven’s sake get an ulcer over it. I so enjoyed every and any Mass till the scales fell from my eyes. 🤷
 
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This thread is closed. Thanks to all who participated in the discussion.
 
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