Liturgical Changes in Saginaw Diocese

[River_Glorious]

In today’s bulletin our priest reported that some changes are expected to begin with the beginning of Lent. The only change he addressed today is that sacred vessels must be metal, glass will no longer be acceptable.

He expects changes to be ongoing as he also said that there will be changes down the road after study and deliberation.

I don’t know who is doing the deliberating, but I’m going to compose a letter addressing a number of issues that I think should be under consideration and send it to Bishop Carlson.

 

[m134e5]

River Glorious:

I don’t know who is doing the deliberating, but I’m going to compose a letter addressing a number of issues that I think should be under consideration and send it to Bishop Carlson.

Just be careful how you say it. Whether they agree with you or not, Bishops don’t like being told what to do.

 

[River_Glorious]

I don’t know if you’ve read the other threads in regard to Saginaw, but Bishop Carlson has been very open to meeting with and listening to parishioners address the liturgical abuses that exist in the diocese, so my letter would be a voice among many.

I have a fairly short list as far as my own parish goes since our new priest has corrected some of them all ready.

m134e5:

Just be careful how you say it. Whether they agree with you or not, Bishops don’t like being told what to do.

 

[Toni]

Wonderful news. I may be able to come out that way to go to Mass again. Before I would leave earlier enough to drive home to avoid attending Mass out your way. I have heard far to many stories.

 

[River_Glorious]

Here’s a an article from the local paper, the end of the article gives a little information about some of the upcoming changes.

 

[InnocentIII]

River Glorious:

Here’s a an article from the local paper, the end of the article gives a little information about some of the upcoming changes.

The mandate affects 17 female pastoral administrators and 252 commissioned lay ministers – including married men and women.

“I’ve been preaching on and off for 10 years,” said commissioned lay minister Karen Choate of Saginaw. "The decision is frustrating, disappointing and painful. But I do understand the reason behind it, so I don’t want to kill the messenger.

"I know the only reason I was able to preach at all is because Bishop Ken allowed and asked me to do so. In fact, I believe Saginaw is the only diocese that did allow women to preach," said Choate, a lifelong member of St. Mary Cathedral, 615 Hoyt in Saginaw.

“I feel especially bad for the pastoral administrators who function as priests because they’ve had something else they can’t do.”

I think this says it all as far as the complaints about the diocese and Bishop Untener are concerned and why those who miss him are so upset. Note the bolded quotes. I especially like the “function as priests”. That is exactly what they thought they were doing … substitute priests. In fact they never were priests or functioning as priests. They were simply administering the parish. I say hurrah for Bishop Carlson. He’s been patient, compassionate and pastoral in not rushing the heavy hand but now the crunch has arrived. Those who thought they were being Catholic now have a clear choice … submit to Rome or find a more congenial church - I know it may sound harsh but you are either Catholic or not. You can’t wear Catholic clothes and practice protestant worship. One more point - I wonder how many of those parishes with female administrators and commissioned lay preachers produced a vocation? I would think they would have a vetsed interest in not producing any priestly vocations. Perhaps that’s why there never were any under Bishop Untener.

 

[MrS]

InnocentIII:

I think this says it all as far as the complaints about the diocese and Bishop Untener are concerned and why those who miss him are so upset. Note the bolded quotes. I especially like the “function as priests”. That is exactly what they thought they were doing … substitute priests. In fact they never were priests or functioning as priests. They were simply administering the parish. I say hurrah for Bishop Carlson. He’s been patient, compassionate and pastoral in not rushing the heavy hand but now the crunch has arrived. Those who thought they were being Catholic now have a clear choice … submit to Rome or find a more congenial church - I know it may sound harsh but you are either Catholic or not. You can’t wear Catholic clothes and practice protestant worship. One more point - I wonder how many of those parishes with female administrators and commissioned lay preachers produced a vocation? I would think they would have a vetsed interest in not producing any priestly vocations. Perhaps that’s why there never were any under Bishop Untener.

 

[puzzleannie]

the point to remember about the PAs in Saginaw, and perhaps elsewhere, is that they originally responded to a call from the previous bishop to perform these tasks, and participated in training he instituted for that purpose, in other words, in obedience to the bishop. There reaction now to a new bishop who is adhering more strictly to Church norms and disciplines will be interesting. The ones I have talked to are stepping down or revising their job descriptions, again in obedience to the new bishop.

I personally think it is unparalled cruelty and an offense against charity for a bishop to encourage laity to participate in irregular or illlicit activities in the name of “pastoral service”. I applaud Bishop Carlson for returning reason and coherence to practices in his diocese.

This is true of many lay people who we observe participating in a variety of practices and “ministries” we are quick to label as abuse. While there are always some who seize any opportunity to push a personal agenda, most of these are well-intentioned obedient lay people who responded to a call from a bishop or pastor to fulfil a certain ministry, and followed the direction they received in their formation in fulfilling that ministry to the best of their ability. If they were lead astray by poor pastoral leadership, where does the guilt lie?

 

[InnocentIII]

puzzleannie:

This is true of many lay people who we observe participating in a variety of practices and “ministries” we are quick to label as abuse. While there are always some who seize any opportunity to push a personal agenda, most of these are well-intentioned obedient lay people who responded to a call from a bishop or pastor to fulfil a certain ministry, and followed the direction they received in their formation in fulfilling that ministry to the best of their ability. If they were lead astray by poor pastoral leadership, where does the guilt lie?

I agree, and the tone of the person quoted was one of obedience but at the same time there is also a sense that they were doing nothing wrong. Yet any Catholic who was not blind, deaf and dumb to what was happening in the wider Church must have queried what Untener was requesting. It is no secret that lay substitution for the priest was contrary to all Church rules. And there is more than enough evidence on the other Saginaw threads to indicate that some at least prefer their own agenda to humbly submitting to the rules of the Church. Their fury at being brought back into line is very real.

 

[nsorg-dupr]

I have always considered the possibility of suggesting the following to “lay adminitrators” and people unwilling to realize the richness of the Roman Rite:

Why not explore another denomination?

Indeed, some denominations allow women to be ordained. Others allow communication for all baptized individuals. Some denominations are lead by a purely democratic system of authority - sessions and committees - and ignore all semblance of hierarchy.

In reality, aren’t those individuals who fight Rome, the bishops, traditional ritual and music, the same who (a) have been “hurt” by the Church, (b) do not have the opportunity, by way of the law of the Church, to become ordained as priests, (c) are interested in marrying and prospering in family life, (d) are in constant need of “feel good” or “uplifting” addictions, (e) are not able - for whatever reason - to follow rules over which they cannot be completely be in control?

Simply, we are all uplifted by Christ’s rising from the dead. And, again, let us simply recall the significance of true vocation when it comes to our own lives and ministry.

Those who don’t want to follow the rules of our beloved Church should consider departing from petty argument in a respectful and kind manner so as to not endanger the prayers and pray-ers of those who ARE willing to do so.

I have never really been gutsy enough to make such remarks, though, to those around me. I have often considered exploring the Anglican Church (particularly those parishes labelled “Anglo-Catholic” or “Cathlo-Anglic”), rich in their traditional liturgy by way of the finest choral and organ music, hymnody, and silence, and inviting to all people.

My continued love for the Roman Church and faith - and hope that sense and sensibility will begin to become contagious for those around me with real “attitudes” - has kept me within this place.

My prayers extend to those in the Saginaw Diocese and nationwide, that they may enjoy the gifts and blessings of the Roman Catholic Church, that they may be nurtured by the sound leadership of Bishop Carlson and those priests who serve their bishop, as is asked and required of them when they promise to serve God and their Church, and that they may be richened by the Holy Spirit to discern true vocation in everyday life.

 

[exFriar]

I think this says it all as far as the complaints about the diocese and Bishop Untener are concerned and why those who miss him are so upset. Note the bolded quotes. I especially like the “function as priests”. That is exactly what they thought they were doing … substitute priests. In fact they never were priests or functioning as priests. They were simply administering the parish. I say hurrah for Bishop Carlson. He’s been patient, compassionate and pastoral in not rushing the heavy hand but now the crunch has arrived. Those who thought they were being Catholic now have a clear choice … submit to Rome or find a more congenial church - I know it may sound harsh but you are either Catholic or not. You can’t wear Catholic clothes and practice protestant worship. One more point - I wonder how many of those parishes with female administrators and commissioned lay preachers produced a vocation? I would think they would have a vetsed interest in not producing any priestly vocations. Perhaps that’s why there never were any under Bishop Untener.

Wow… believing that lay persons, male or female, are preaching is a mistake on the listeners part. What they are doing is offering a reflection on the “Good News”. Only an ordained minister is “qualifed” to preach.
My guess would be that Bishop Carlson is concerned with what the community is being taught during such reflections and may , at a latter time, allow a number of lay ministers to go back to assisting their communities… as he see fit.
Bishop Carlson has a great deal on his plate. He is preceded by a Bishop that was extremely progressive… the greater Church moves slower. Don’t get me wrong… as a fan of Bishop Ken’s all I will say is Bishop Carlson has been making his own mark on Saginw… the jury’s still out!

 

[Brendan]

Here in Detroit, the former archbishop, Cardinal Maida, mandated that “Pastoral Administrators”, as in the person resonsible for the administration of a parish in the absence of a pastor, be Deacons.

Archbishop Vigneron has continued that policy.