Liturgical colors question

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mburn16

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Hello again, all…

As long as I’m going through my new period as a member, I thought I might throw one of the nagging questions I’ve had out there.

The first concerns ordinary time - why is the color green? Many of the other colors make sense (red for the blood of martyrs, or Christ; black for mourning; white/gold for the hope of Christ’s birth and ressurection)…but what exactly is the logic behind using green for the vast majority of the year, as opposed to, say, maybe a brown or some more “drab” color?

The second question is about something I’ve read where blue is increasingly being used by Protestant churches to represent advent, as opposed to Purple. Although Catholics have not (yet?) received permission to use blue during this period, some parishes have nonethless began using blue for advent, in addition to its sanctioned use on holy days directly related to the Virgin. Any thoughts about the merits/etc. of this?

Rgds,

Matt
 
I can’t answer the first question but I’ll weigh in on the blue/violet one.

The idea as I understand it is to change the mood of Advent from one of penetential anticipation to something else. I hope that the Church does not adopt this change.
First of all, the season of Advent IS a season of penetential anticipation, though not as penetential as Lent. Second, the color blue, where it is approved, is associated with Marian feasts. Using it for Advent and also for Marian feasts would muddy the visual message.

Of course, if the Church decided to use Blue, I would go along. 😦
 
<unfortunately, my parish identifies advent as “blue.” fortunately, the shades of periwinkle and indigo they use are licit. our previous pastor actually has a royal blue chasuble, however.>

I do not know the official reason that Ordinary Time uses green but this is approximately what I told my first graders last Sunday:
Ordinary Time is a time for us to focus on growing in faith. Since green plants are growing plants, the color green in Ordinary Time reminds us that this is the time we should be growing.
 
Regarding the color green, green is associated with life, and during Ordinary Time we focus on living our ordinary life with Christ, so it makes sense to me.

Also maybe green dye was cheaper in the old days and so green vestments would be less expensive and therefore make sense for less solemn Sundays, but that’s just a guess.

Concerning the use of blue as a liturgical color, it has been used for Marian feasts in some Spanish-speaking areas and Bavaria I believe, but that isn’t the custom here and I would be uncomfortable with the introduction. It would feel like a Hispanicization of the Catholic Church in the United States, at a time when that sort of thing is politically and culturally sensitive.

On the other hand, blue was used as the color for Advent in the Sarum Use in England, and this was later incorporated into Anglicanism as an option. Therefore I think it makes sense for Anglican/Episcopalian and Methodist communities, and would make sense for the new Anglican ordinariates, though of course they must follow whatever actual norms apply to them in the Catholic Church. Also apparently there’s a connection with the Scandinavian Lutherans, though whether it goes back in any way to Catholic times I don’t know. An internet search brought up the Mozarabic Rite as well, but in a vague way and I’m not sure if it might be confusion with the custom of using blue for Marian feasts or not.

Being something of an Anglo-American, I would find it neat to see a Medieval English Catholic custom brought back in English speaking countries, but I realize that many if not most American Catholics identify more with traditional Irish, Italian, German, etc. traditions. Also in any case the change would probably make some people uncomfortable, thinking it was “wrong” or “untraditional”, especially since it has sometimes been used illicitly recently, by “liberals” who probably got the idea from Protestants. For this reason I think it’s probably not a good idea, except again maybe for the Anglican ordinariates, and any odd Sarum Use mass that might be performed, if that’s still allowed.
 
Corki said:
I can’t answer the first question but I’ll weigh in on the blue/violet one.

The idea as I understand it is to change the mood of Advent from one of penetential anticipation to something else. I hope that the Church does not adopt this change.
First of all, the season of Advent IS a season of penetential anticipation, though not as penetential as Lent. Second, the color blue, where it is approved, is associated with Marian feasts. Using it for Advent and also for Marian feasts would muddy the visual message.

Of course, if the Church decided to use Blue, I would go along. 😦
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Certainly I agree that if blue were used as a liturgical color in the United States (or any given country) it should clearly be for either Advent or Marian feasts, not both.

Maybe the simplest answer is just to avoid both.
 
BTW - Ordinary Time in the Church is never “ordinary.” It’s just:
  • not Advent
  • not Christmas
  • not Lent
  • not the Triduum
  • not Easter
I guess we didn’t know what to call it so “ordinary” kinda crept in.
 
SonCatcher said:
unfortunately, my parish identifies advent as “blue.” fortunately, the shades of periwinkle and indigo they use are licit. our previous pastor actually has a royal blue chasuble, however.
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Well I must say, if we were to use blue (and I have no real opinion one way or the other - I like blue - but the point of liturgical colors is not to make things look attractive), I’d much prefer a royal blue to something like this:

http://www.catholicliturgicals.com/admin/uploads/RV_D09D_i12.jpg

Not a fan of the fiddleback style anyway…can’t help but compare it to an X-ray protection suit.
 
If memory serves, “Ordinary” time used to be referred to as the “nth Sunday After Pentecost.”

So if you can imagine the descent of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost leads to spiritual growth, it would make sense that green = the new life, growth, etc., that comes afterwards.
 
SonCatcher said:
I guess we didn’t know what to call it so “ordinary” kinda crept in.
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Yes, the Latin per annum means ‘of the year’ or ‘through the year’. Most other modern languages offer a more accurate translation of the Latin. I don’t know why the English translations (including the new one) went this way. I suppose ‘Ordinary time’ is no more or less confusing than ‘through the year’.
 
SonCatcher said:
BTW - Ordinary Time in the Church is never “ordinary.” It’s just:
  • not Advent
  • not Christmas
  • not Lent
  • not the Triduum
  • not Easter
I guess we didn’t know what to call it so “ordinary” kinda crept in.
Click to expand...
That’s why it originally wasn’t called ordinary time. It would be called “The X Sunday after Pentecost.”
 
Well, in re: ordinary time, that makes more sense. Particularly with “ordinary time” being something of a poor translation. “Nth Sunday of the liturgical year” does seem to align appropriately with green representing growth.

As for blue and advent, here is the entry from wiki:
There has been an increasing trend to supplant purple with blue during Advent as it is an hopeful season of preparation that anticipates both Bethlehem and the consummation of history in the second coming of Jesus Christ.[2][3] Proponents of this new liturgical trend argue that purple is traditionally associated with solemnity and somberness, which is fitting to the repentant character of Lent.
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Makes sense…Advent, though solemn, is, after all, the time in which we are waiting for the birth of our savior - and symbolically, his return. So, perhaps a color associated with the dawn of a new day is not wholly unfounded.
 
The term “Ordinary Time” was originally translated as “Ordinal Time” which is a better translation (as far as I’m concerned) because it avoids the obvious confusion.

Think “ordinal number” as in cardinal (1, 2, 3) or ordinal (1st, 2nd, 3rd).
It just means that the Sundays are numbered.
 
FrDavid96 said:
The term “Ordinary Time” was originally translated as “Ordinal Time” which is a better translation (as far as I’m concerned) because it avoids the obvious confusion.

Think “ordinal number” as in cardinal (1, 2, 3) or ordinal (1st, 2nd, 3rd).
It just means that the Sundays are numbered.
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Yep. The Sundays are numbered “in order”. Ordinary time means “counted in order” time.

We should have all learned in math class that counting numbers (1, 2, 3, 4, 5…) are called Ordinary Numbers (or ordinal numbers.)

…but I agree that Ordinal Time would have been a better translation because even though *ordinal *and ordinary were once interchangeable, *ordinary *has taken on the meaning of commonplace. I guess that’s what happens when things are too organized; they get taken for granted.😛
 
FrDavid96 said:
The term “Ordinary Time” was originally translated as “Ordinal Time” which is a better translation (as far as I’m concerned) because it avoids the obvious confusion.

Think “ordinal number” as in cardinal (1, 2, 3) or ordinal (1st, 2nd, 3rd).
It just means that the Sundays are numbered.
Click to expand...
But the Latin does not say anything like “Ordinal Time” or “Ordered Time” (e.g., “Tempus ordinarium”). It says “Tempus « per annum »”, which is “Time ‘through the year’.” Note the quotation marks (or guillemets), presumably because it is about as awkward in Latin as it would be in English if we tried to talk about the “thirtieth Sunday through the year.” Really, inasmuch as the Latin is vague, bland, and nondescriptive, I actually think “Ordinary Time” is not a half bad translation.

If I am missing some place in the Latin where a term is used that actually might mean “counted in order,” I’d be interested to know about it. Otherwise, that is just inserting into the English translation a concept which is not present in the original.
 
mburn16 said:
Well I must say, if we were to use blue (and I have no real opinion one way or the other - I like blue - but the point of liturgical colors is not to make things look attractive), I’d much prefer a royal blue to something like this:

http://www.catholicliturgicals.com/admin/uploads/RV_D09D_i12.jpg

Not a fan of the fiddleback style anyway…can’t help but compare it to an X-ray protection suit.
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I have never seen blue vestments used for Advent as mentioned in the post you quoted. Our parish has two different shades of violet - one is more blue violet and the other is more red violet. It seemed they used one shade for Lent and the other for Advent. The pictures that you have posted is of a vestment having a Marian emblem and is most likely used for Marian Feasts days. Our last two pastors had/has a vestment that they use on Marian Feasts, but their vestments are mostly white. Our previous pastor had a white vestment with blue and gold trim. Our present pastor has a white vestment with blue lining underneath and Gold and Blue trim and a Marian emblem similar to the one shown. But the vestments are mostly white, and I believe that white is the correct liturgical color for celebrating Our Blessed Mother’s Feast days.
 
mburn16 said:
Not really. We could say “Nth Sunday of the Liturgical Year”
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But that doesn’t really work either since Ordinary time stops and starts up again. The first four Sundays of the Liturgical year are the Sundays of Advent but the first week of Ordinary time isn’t until January.
 
zab said:
Our parish has two different shades of violet - one is more blue violet and the other is more red violet. It seemed they used one shade for Lent and the other for Advent. The pictures that you have posted is of a vestment having a Marian emblem and is most likely used for Marian Feasts days. Our last two pastors had/has a vestment that they use on Marian Feasts, but their vestments are mostly white. Our previous pastor had a white vestment with blue and gold trim. Our present pastor has a white vestment with blue lining underneath and Gold and Blue trim and a Marian emblem similar to the one shown. But the vestments are mostly white, and I believe that white is the correct liturgical color for celebrating Our Blessed Mother’s Feast days.
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I’ve seen similar things in our parish. The priest uses a medium purple (and pink/rose) for Advent and a darker Violet for Lent. One of our past priest also used to wear a white chasuble with blue and gold embroidery for Marian feasts. I’ve never seen a full blue one before.

As for the green, I was told it was to represent new life from our baptismal rebirth during the Easter season. 🤷
 
mburn16 said:
Hello again, all…

As long as I’m going through my new period as a member, I thought I might throw one of the nagging questions I’ve had out there.

The first concerns ordinary time - why is the color green? Many of the other colors make sense (red for the blood of martyrs, or Christ; black for mourning; white/gold for the hope of Christ’s birth and ressurection)…but what exactly is the logic behind using green for the vast majority of the year, as opposed to, say, maybe a brown or some more “drab” color?
Click to expand...
If you go by the 13th century allegorist, Durand of Mede, it’s because green is in between red, white and black (which he records as being used where we would now use violet). Thus it is used in between the liturgical seasons and days where those colours would be employed.
 
MarkThompson said:
But the Latin does not say anything like “Ordinal Time” or “Ordered Time” (e.g., “Tempus ordinarium”). It says “Tempus « per annum »”, which is “Time ‘through the year’.” Note the quotation marks (or guillemets), presumably because it is about as awkward in Latin as it would be in English if we tried to talk about the “thirtieth Sunday through the year.” Really, inasmuch as the Latin is vague, bland, and nondescriptive, I actually think “Ordinary Time” is not a half bad translation.

If I am missing some place in the Latin where a term is used that actually might mean “counted in order,” I’d be interested to know about it. Otherwise, that is just inserting into the English translation a concept which is not present in the original.
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I’m not quite sure what you mean.

In English we used to say “5th or 6th Sunday of the year” which isn’t a direct translation of the Latin either, although it’s much closer

I’m not saying that “Ordinal Time” is a direct translation of the Latin, but it does convey the idea that the Sundays are numbered. In other words, we don’t see the word “ordinal” in the Latin, but we do see that the Sundays are all assigned ordinal numbers.

The reason why they use the word “Ordinary” is because the word itself comes from the concept of ordinal numbers.

In this context, ordinary and ordinal mean the same thing. The reason why I’m not personally in favor of using ordinary is because in contemporary English, the word ordinary is only used to mean “commonplace, not-special, etc” and that is not the idea that the Church is trying to convey in the liturgical season (or lack-of-season if you will).

What I mean is that people hear “ordinary time” and they think it means “the not so special time.” They don’t understand that the word is simply a reference to the fact that the Sundays are numbered.
 
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