Liturgical Controversies are Disheartening and I don't Understand all the Fuss!

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HelpingHands

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I just don’t understand all the anger I read on this board. I’m facinated and repelled at the same time. I’ve been following the thread on headcoverings, and members are barely “veiling” their disdain for one another about what seems to me merely a matter of personal taste, although with cultural implications, of course.

I’ve read other threads that discuss handholding, prayer postures, music styles, manual dexderity of Extrordinary Ministers of the Eucharist, etc and so forth. My point is, I had no idea how angry everyone was at church, since I’m not a mind-reader, but now I know! It’s disheartening. All this arguing and division is eroding my faith! Isn’t our journey to God an inward one of losing one’s self to him? All this fingerwagging and handwringing over the details of the Mass absolutely confuse me, and make me doubt my faith, and make me lose hope in our Church and it’s ability to help us face the real battles of our life.

Please, give me words of explanation and encouragement! I’m losing hope. 😦
 
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HelpingHands:
I just don’t understand all the anger I read on this board. I’m facinated and repelled at the same time. I’ve been following the thread on headcoverings, and members are barely “veiling” their disdain for one another about what seems to me merely a matter of personal taste, although with cultural implications, of course.

I’ve read other threads that discuss handholding, prayer postures, music styles, manual dexderity of Extrordinary Ministers of the Eucharist, etc and so forth. My point is, I had no idea how angry everyone was at church, since I’m not a mind-reader, but now I know! It’s disheartening. All this arguing and division is eroding my faith! Isn’t our journey to God an inward one of losing one’s self to him? All this fingerwagging and handwringing over the details of the Mass absolutely confuse me, and make me doubt my faith, and make me lose hope in our Church and it’s ability to help us face the real battles of our life.

Please, give me words of explanation and encouragement! I’m losing hope. 😦
It is a church filled with human beings. People will always find something to complain about. It’s our fallen nature to do so. But don’t let minor bickering over fine points cause you to lose faith. If you do, then you are letting your own human condition blind you to the transcendent reality of the Church that you speak of in your post. Also, take heart from the fact that so many raise their little issues out of a respect for God and His church, rather than out of a questioning of authority.
 
I know exactly what you mean! I don’t consider some of this stuff minor bickering–there’s real anger, and I know I’ve also fallen into the fray on occasion. But now, when walking up the aisle to take my seat at Mass (especially daily Mass when there are really only a handful of people in the church), I’m wondering in the back of my head, are my shoes squeaking too loud? Are my keys jingling in my pocket and causing distraction? Am I dressed inappropriately and someone’s looking at my back? Did I remember to cut the tag off this new shirt or do I have a dryer sheet hanging out the back of my pant leg?

Of course the above is hyperbole (somewhat), but I can say I absolutely have to take some threads with a grain of salt or I’d wonder if a significant percentage of us Catholics are headed for anger management classes.

Penitent
 
I don’t know how old you are, HH, but part of it could be from the fact that a lot of us middle ages (30+) have been putting up with abuse and controversies for most of our lives.

Some, who were incorrectly taught about various church teachings (not just the "inconsequentials) become understandably quite upset when they find out the truth. Then they either become “converts”. . .and you know nobody is quite so VEHEMENT as the ex-something, just like the ex-smoker is the loudest in condemnation of smoking as a filthy habit, right?

Or else they become more and more inclined to the old "river in Egypt), you know, “De Nial”, and so THEY are loud in their plaudits for a teaching, or a practice, because it would rock their world unbearably to change.

And plenty in the middle have no real wishes one or or the other for most things, but can be drawn into argument over things like personality (“I like this fellow, I’ll listen to him”), or shared experiences (“I never did well in languages, this guy says Latin Masses are too hard and made him feel stupid, gosh, I would probably feel the same way”)

And sadly there are always the few professiontal gadflies who just like to cause trouble, and the well-meaning but tactless and insensitive extremists on BOTH sides. . .

People who feel a passion for their faith (a good thing) can be passionate over all sorts of things about it. Others may be just as faithful, but more even tempered. All of us are different, after all.

Now, I personally am not a coffee drinker. Not at all. Quite a few of the people I love, or work with, ARE coffee drinkers. Some of them are FANATICS about it. Some just chug down a half-cold cup of instant generic crystals. ALL of them would be very unhappy, to a greater or lesser degree, if asked to try different brands, have different portion sizes, drink at a different temperature, or in a different container, and most ASSUREDLY they would be upset if asked not to drink coffee AT ALL.

So. . .just because I personally do not drink cofee or care for it, do I roll my eyes (metaphorically speaking), make sanctimonious noises about how PETTY people are, attempt to bludgeon them into insensibility by constantly yammering about how they all DISAGREE about coffee, so WHY do they make such a fuss about it. . .

(I do not mean this as a personal remark to you).

But. . .you see, people are individuals. They have routines, they have likes and dislikes, they have faith, hope, love, reason, custom, tradition, knowledge. . .so many things go into these “petty details”.

And above all (from one who knows). . .remember what was said, “For evil to triumph, it takes only good men to do NOTHING”.

For 30 some years, good men and women were pretty much psychologically, emotionally, and spiritually manipulated. And it wasn’t just ONE thing, it was literally hundreds of them. The old “divide and conquer” technique. It keeps us from uniting, because the more you can get people disagreeing over little things, the less time and effort they have to see what is going on with the big picture.

The catch is, you STILL have to deal with the little things first. Absent a miracle or a global threat (such as the imminent invasion of Europe by armed Muslims intent on having the populace convert to Islam or die, for example), which would have Catholics immediately forget about whether to hold hands or not at the Lord’s Prayer and have them focus solely on defending the faith from immediate, forced annihilation, you are not going to get cooperation from people.

Hmmm, maybe there IS a reason for some of the most recent happenings worldwide, eh?

Seriously, it does not do to “cast the first stone” at people you find annoying because you are relatively indifferent to a particular practice. Even your indifferent attitude is YOUR CHOICE, and you are pretty serious about wanting people to respect that choice, so why would others who are NOT indifferent (either way) on a topic not want to have their choices respected too?
 
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HelpingHands:
My point is, I had no idea how angry everyone was at church, since I’m not a mind-reader, but now I know! It’s disheartening. All this arguing and division is eroding my faith! Isn’t our journey to God an inward one of losing one’s self to him?..
I’m usually not angry at Mass anymore. A priest once told me that I should not let myself get worked up over liturgical abuses. I should just avoid the parishes where they occur. He also advised me to drop the issue and not discuss liturgical abuses with the priests who inflict them on us. He said that most priests are well aware that what they are doing is wrong and it would do no good to bring it up to them. I know I could take the matter up w/ the bishop. But I really get way too worked up over these things. For me, it is spiritually much more beneficial right now to just avoid certain parishes

In Columbus I have seen liturgical abuses in all but a handfull of parishes taht I have attended. While it may not bother some people that a parish uses inappropriate vessels or that the priest ad libs the entire Mass except for the EP which he recites flawlessly (which tells you he know what he is doing is wrong because he stops just short of making the Mass invalid), these things really bother me. :mad:

Most Sundays will find me at the TLM or at a parish not too far from it that does an amazingly beautiful NO.

And now I am no longer angry at Mass. 🙂

James
 
P.S., HH

I know it is difficult to separate the “Church” from the miserable rotten sinners IN the Church ( 😃 ), , ,

But think for a moment, no offense, how can we possibly expect everybody else in the church to be perfect, when you and I are in it?

I don’t know about you, but I am a fairly miserable, nasty, selfish, proud, opinionated, tight-fisted, lazy, feckless slob. . .and that’s on my GOOD days.

Why then would I be rocked by the idea that other people in the church are likewise often miserable, nasty, selfish, etc.? The church is a hospital for sinners, not a museum for saints. And I use the hospital analogy advisedly, because a hospital ideally helps sick people to get WELL. . .but, sadly, some people do not get well.

Now, I’m not saying, “everybody else is a jerk, I don’t have to be any different”. I’m not saying, “just live with the failures”.

Humility is THE hardest thing for me. My brother used to have a little plaque which said, “It’s hard to be humble when you’re as great as I am”. . .it could have been mine. Boy, could I point out the faults of others, but even when I would speak with my lips, “Lord, I am not worthy”, I sure didn’t speak it in my heart. In my heart I would think, “With all the mess people are making around here, Lord, isn’t it a good thing you have ME?”

Until I was brought up short (long story) to where I actually for one brief moment did experience humility.

Now, I am still miserable, etc. as above. . .but now I really KNOW it. It has made me, while still zealous for the faith, and hopefully more attuned to God’s will instead of mine, be just a little more patient about others (although sometimes it takes me longer than it should) and a little harder on myself.

The other thing it did was cure me of my religious indifference, so to speak. I was really gung ho on how everything was all relative, and it didn’t matter about petty things. . .to the point where I could have “worshipped” anywhere from a Buddhist temple to a Baptist church, and bleated about the “universality of the God/Goddess/Unity Figure”, taking out bits and pieces from each and building some little “personal” faith which grabbed the gospel music from the Baptists, the cooking of the Shakers, the minimalism of the Buddists, the sacramentals of Catholicism, the service of the Quakers, etc. etc.

You see, with the idea that “everything is up to the individual”. . .you wind up with chaos, because sooner or later you have two people with completely different views who both profess to be Christians, and then what? They can’t both be right, of course. But oh horrors, how we hate to criticize people and stomp their self esteem, and who are WE to make judgments over whether something is “better” than something else?". . .see the problem? That is what we have today, a church where “anything goes” except the so-called moldy attitude that there is any such thing as absolute truth. A church where we are told that postures do not “matter”. . .unless we are part of the minority which chooses a different posture (and that means both ways, either those who don’t hold hands in holding land, or those who DO hold hands in don’ttouchme land). Hmm, first I am told the posture does not matter, but only the intent. . .but dig those glares from the same person who is ostentatiously “embracing in love” the brothers and sisters in the pew to the brother or sister who is not comfortable with the gesture!!

The gesture DOES matter. (And for the record, WHATEVER the gesture is, just for God’s sake make it UNIVERSAL. We are supposed to be united as Christians, not divided into dozens of camps of “I don’t hold hands”, “I don’t orans”, “I DO hold hands”, “I do orans”, “I believe in the real presence”, “It’s a symbol”, “women priests”, “men priests”, “latin”, “vernacular”, “faith community”, parish". . . ad infinitum.)

God bless. . .and bring us together. For sure we’re not going to be uniting our Protestant brothers and sisters until we’re a unified family OURSELVES!
 
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HelpingHands:
I just don’t understand all the anger I read on this board. I’m facinated and repelled at the same time. I’ve been following the thread on headcoverings, and members are barely “veiling” their disdain for one another about what seems to me merely a matter of personal taste, although with cultural implications, of course.

I’ve read other threads that discuss handholding, prayer postures, music styles, manual dexderity of Extrordinary Ministers of the Eucharist, etc and so forth. My point is, I had no idea how angry everyone was at church, since I’m not a mind-reader, but now I know! It’s disheartening. All this arguing and division is eroding my faith! Isn’t our journey to God an inward one of losing one’s self to him? All this fingerwagging and handwringing over the details of the Mass absolutely confuse me, and make me doubt my faith, and make me lose hope in our Church and it’s ability to help us face the real battles of our life.

Please, give me words of explanation and encouragement! I’m losing hope. 😦
Many of us are passionate because we have been told that when we cry for the mass of our childhood, a pious NO mass, we are just being overly pious and “Old Fashion”.
We want to be Catholic. The kind of Catholic that seperates us from our other Christian brothers. We were shunned and looked down upon. For a long time many of us lived with an emptyness that modern liturgies could not fill. We saw our liturgies as nothing more than any other denomination’s.
We were kept in the dark and told this is the way it is. And told how UnChristian we were for not accepting it.

Then Mother Angelica and EWTN came into our lives and we learned that the “Catholic Communites” were not all there was. The information on the internet added to our validation.

If at any time the moderists had just given in a little bit and offered a traditional liturgy along with the modern, we would not be so rabid now with our new found information.

If you saw that the sky was blue and for years people told you that it was pink, when you got your first validation that the sky really was blue, you would be passionate about it as well.

Our new Pope (God Bless Him!) is trying to bring us all together. By demanding the traditional, he will get us all on the same page. Don’t lose faith.
 
Honestly, I think a lot of the anger and nasty things that are said on here are said because this is an anonymous message board. A lot less of this would be going on if we were all face to face having a discussion.

Tantum ergo made some wonderful points. We’re all imperfect, therefore the church (little c) is also imperfect.
 
Great insights on this thread!

I would just like to add that if we were all in one room, face to face, the conversation would not nearly be so vitriolic.

Attitude and tone are also very hard to really distinguish, and even if smilies are used, it doesn’t always convery the true meaning of the poster.

For myself, my attitude comes through far more clearly when I write than when I speak, even if I speak the same words. It’s easier to soften words with a touch, an expression, eye contact, etc…but when we write, it’s there in black and white.

For myself, I find this to be very revealing of my own intentions, my own true feelings about something. Wheras in person I hear my tone and correct it, in writing, there is no voice promting or censoring…so I may actually convey what I really think.

I don’t think that’s always such a good thing, and what you are observing, maybe is a version of what I described.

Do not let the fallability of we humans to deter you from the faith. We can’t even pretend to be a bunch of saints. How could we carry off such a facade when our own words stare at us and everyone in an uneditable format only minutes after we wrote them?

Rather, let this help you grow in faith…this is a great test of patience and endurance for all of us! Focus on the loving words of most people here, and realize that if you were in person, there would likely be many hugs, much accepance, forgiveness.

If you notice, much of what is said is so because we don’t all really know each other. If those who hate to see the veil actually met some of us who wear it, you may find us the best of friends. Some traditionalists may meet Charismatics and find themselves to be two peas in a pod. But here…well, while we are brought together by cyberspace, that is the same thing that keeps us apart.

So keep on keepin’ on, my friend! Wouldn’t you be disturbed if we all posted on this thread and pretended to be saints?
 
Hi everyone,
Thanks for the thoughtful replies. I’m still reading the veils thread. I want to say to you all, reading that thread is harmful to anyone who is struggling with their faith. Yes, it’s interesting from a sociological POV, but from the spiritual perspective it tells me that Catholic women are no different than women in any other walk of life. There is no difference.

Where is there evidence that wearing or not wearing a veil is helpful to one’s soul? Or that being a devout Catholic elevates a person to great things? No where! Why, posters are starting to accuse one another of paranoia and are making other accusations, picking one another’s posts apart, glombing on some phrase, looking for any small slight or offense! Where is the spirituality in this?

Why was the thread started anyways? Because someone is upset at how they are assessed by others in church. Because they feel that others might ridicule them because of something they wear on their head. Because their appearance isn’t acceptable, and others might mock them!

What does this say about our Church? That people are very concerned about how they appear to others. That others are sometimes quick to make judgements of others. That people are angry and upset. That there is distrust and a poor witness of the faith in our Church.

Where is the Holy Spirit? Where is the tenderness of the Blessed Mother? Where is Christ, our Lord? I’m not sure anymore.! 😦 😦 😦
 
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HelpingHands:
What does this say about our Church? That people are very concerned about how they appear to others. That others are sometimes quick to make judgements of others. That people are angry and upset. That there is distrust and a poor witness of the faith in our Church.

Where is the Holy Spirit? Where is the tenderness of the Blessed Mother? Where is Christ, our Lord? I’m not sure anymore.! 😦 😦 😦
All of those things are in you.
If you don’t like what you are reading here, stop.

All I have to say is that the posters on that other thread were baiting the women who wanted to wear veils. That is going to happen anywhere.
If your faith is so weak that it is going to disappear because of an internet forum, you need to get out of here and go talk to your priest. Go on a retreat, go say a prayer, pick up your Bible.

Some of the biggest fights involved Saints of your church. They stood strong and so should you.
 
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tadly:
All of those things are in you.
If you don’t like what you are reading here, stop.

All I have to say is that the posters on that other thread were baiting the women who wanted to wear veils. That is going to happen anywhere.
If your faith is so weak that it is going to disappear because of an internet forum, you need to get out of here and go talk to your priest. Go on a retreat, go say a prayer, pick up your Bible.

Some of the biggest fights involved Saints of your church. They stood strong and so should you.
Gee, this seems a little harsh to me. I can see how seeing Catholics saying unkind things to one another would be unencouraging. This person is crying out to us. Saying that it’s all her problem doesn’t help build bridges.
 
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HelpingHands:
Hi everyone,
Thanks for the thoughtful replies. I’m still reading the veils thread. I want to say to you all, reading that thread is harmful to anyone who is struggling with their faith. Yes, it’s interesting from a sociological POV, but from the spiritual perspective it tells me that Catholic women are no different than women in any other walk of life. There is no difference.

Where is there evidence that wearing or not wearing a veil is helpful to one’s soul? Or that being a devout Catholic elevates a person to great things? No where! Why, posters are starting to accuse one another of paranoia and are making other accusations, picking one another’s posts apart, glombing on some phrase, looking for any small slight or offense! Where is the spirituality in this?

Why was the thread started anyways? Because someone is upset at how they are assessed by others in church. Because they feel that others might ridicule them because of something they wear on their head. Because their appearance isn’t acceptable, and others might mock them!

What does this say about our Church? That people are very concerned about how they appear to others. That others are sometimes quick to make judgements of others. That people are angry and upset. That there is distrust and a poor witness of the faith in our Church.

Where is the Holy Spirit? Where is the tenderness of the Blessed Mother? Where is Christ, our Lord? I’m not sure anymore.! 😦 😦 😦
HelpingHands what I think you are missing is that all these are aspects of the Holy Spirit, our Lord.

I fear that you may have a strange belief that in the Church there should be no problems and that it should be some utopian ideal of perfection. This is the furthest thing from the truth. In fact it is an unofficial mark of the true Church that it is filled with problems. Remember, Christ came for sinners and not the rightous. Even shortly after the death of Christ there were already these problems. I suggest you read the letters of Paul to the Corinthians and the Galatians. This is the noral ebb and flow of life lived as mortals - we are not angels nor do we pretend to be.

This reminds me of a story about Oscar Wilde who lived a decadent life and when asked about what religion he would be in if he were a religious man he responeded “Roman Catholic” to which there was amazement because his family was all High Anglicans. When asked why Roman Catholic and not the faith of his family he simply said “The faith of my family is one of proper people … the Catholics are the only ones that would have me.”

There may be a further issue and that would be (and I do not know this because I do not know you well) is that at this point in your spiritual and intellectual formation in the faith you may not see the true importance of the things being discussed here. I know that in the early days of my faith I would not have understood particular perceived problems by some. However, after spending much time in study in and out of the Seminary I personally have at least an understanding of why these questions come up and why they are so devisive and why they are so important for the edification of the faithful. However, it is all a process that we each must go through.

Remember the Holy Spirit, Christ, the Father, Our Lady, etc are not authors of division nor is God the author of disorder and unreasoned faith. It is important to keep together all these things so that in time we all can be the “spiritually mature” as St. Paul says.
 
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