"Liturgical dance" program at parochial school?

[Togonon]

Hi, my child is in sixth grade at a catholic parochial school in California. She just informed me that she is joining a new “liturgical dance” program at the school. I know that liturgical dance is prohibited (in the west) during a Mass.

Is her participation in any dance routine during a Mass (and my acquiesce to it) a sin? Should I prohibit her from participating in this program at school and/or seek to have the program ended either through the principal, pastor or bishop if necessary?

Thanks for any guidance…

 

[EasterJoy]

At our children’s school, “liturgical dance” meant that the pastor permitted a processional-type “dance” before the main procession began and sometimes allowed another after the Mass was over. The dancers, all girls, did more of a prancing procession than a dance. They had to practice and it was choreographed to the music and diligently done, but it wasn’t elaborate enough to call it a stand-alone “performance.” It was more like a prelude than anything else. The children did not go near the altar, but stayed in the aisles.

The priest tried to be as permissive as the rubrics would allow, but I think that was about as far as Father was willing to let them push the envelope. On that account, I’d say “it depends on where the boundaries are drawn.” Investigate that, ask the pastor overseeing the school what boundaries he allows for this thing, and then decide whether you think the effort will add to piety or violate it.

 

[EasterJoy]

There is a famous joke about a liturgical dancer who “performed” after Holy Communion during a Mass at which the bishop was in attendance. The bishop reportedly leaned over to the pastor of the parish and quipped, “When she’s done, I’m going to give her your head on a platter, too.” I have heard there is a real incident behind it, but have no idea if that is true.

 

[Aelred_Minor]

Weird. Does the school have a large number of non-Western immigrant or American Indian students?

 

[pianistclare]

There is a famous joke about a liturgical dancer who “performed” after Holy Communion during a Mass at which the bishop was in attendance. The bishop reportedly leaned over to the pastor of the parish and quipped, “When she’s done, I’m going to give her your head on a platter, too.” I have heard there is a real incident behind it, but have no idea if that is true.

That’s hilarious.

 

[pianistclare]

Some well meaning but ill informed person thought this up.
I’d encourage her to join the choir. :compcoff:

She’ll participate more, and it’s a life-long skill.

 

[Book_Worm]

A friend who taught at a Catholic HS in an African American community invited me to their Christmas pageant. Part of the program included some interpretive dance. It was very, very different from the very traditional, classical program at my DD’s HS, but I found it very reverent and spiritual.

 

[1ke]

Hi, my child is in sixth grade at a catholic parochial school in California. She just informed me that she is joining a new “liturgical dance” program at the school. I know that liturgical dance is prohibited (in the west) during a Mass.

Is her participation in any dance routine during a Mass (and my acquiesce to it) a sin? Should I prohibit her from participating in this program at school and/or seek to have the program ended either through the principal, pastor or bishop if necessary?

Thanks for any guidance…

If they are dancing outside of the context of Mass, no problem.

If they are dancing during Mass (even masquerading as something directly before/after Mass) neither you nor your daughter should have any part of it. And, yes, you are culpable for letting her do things you know are wrong. But first check into it more to make sure you understand exactly what this group does and when.

 

[Togonon]

Thanks for everyone’s (name removed by moderator)ut!

To be clear then: if the dance 1) occurs prior to the processional, before mass actually starts; and 2) does not take place on alter, it is permissible, yes?

Also, in answer to above: the school does have a large Asia/Pacific Islander population.

Thanks again to all

 

[Havard]

Thanks for everyone’s (name removed by moderator)ut!

To be clear then: if the dance 1) occurs prior to the processional, before mass actually starts; and 2) does not take place on alter, it is permissible, yes?

Also, in answer to above: the school does have a large Asia/Pacific Islander population.

Thanks again to all

If there is a parish hall, that would seem to be the appropriate venue for such performances.

Here’s a link to CDF Prefect Emeritus Cardinal Arinze’s comments on the matter:

adoremus.org/1003Arinze.html

 

[1ke]

Thanks for everyone’s (name removed by moderator)ut!

To be clear then: if the dance 1) occurs prior to the processional, before mass actually starts; and 2) does not take place on alter, it is permissible, yes?

Also, in answer to above: the school does have a large Asia/Pacific Islander population.

Thanks again to all

It should not be taking place in the sanctuary at all.

 

[EasterJoy]

Thanks for everyone’s (name removed by moderator)ut!

To be clear then: if the dance 1) occurs prior to the processional, before mass actually starts; and 2) does not take place on alter, it is permissible, yes?

Also, in answer to above: the school does have a large Asia/Pacific Islander population.

Thanks again to all

Ah…well, we have ethnic groups from Pacific nations that do entirely different sorts of things than the grade school does. THOSE are during Mass, but they aren’t prancing around choreographed by who-knows-who. They are processional elements done in traditional garb and choreographed according to a traditional standard from the home countries. I think I have seen them for the presentation of the gifts, even. I wouldn’t call them “liturgical dance,” though.

These are a million miles from the kind of thing I’ve seen (for instance) as part of the Mass procession in videos of the LA Congress. One such “production” was what I thought was a quasi-pagan monstrosity and an offense against aesthetics, not to put too fine a point on it:

youtube.com/watch?v=4kE_7pSPQP0&list=PLBsLT6gblfDDrtZzuowiosGcm5QNjBvrD

Ick. Just ick…

 

[sw85]

What kind of God would create a universe with liturgical dance?

 

[pianistclare]

Ah…well, we have ethnic groups from Pacific nations that do entirely different sorts of things than the grade school does. THOSE are during Mass, but they aren’t prancing around choreographed by who-knows-who. They are processional elements done in traditional garb and choreographed according to a traditional standard from the home countries. I think I have seen them for the presentation of the gifts, even. I wouldn’t call them “liturgical dance,” though.

Agreed. We have this at the Feast of Our Lady of Guadalupe each year. It’s not liturgical dance. More like a Procession around the grounds that leads the Presider and the Statue into the church. Same at the presentation of the gifts. They are brought up in traditional procession style. The steps are always the same, with a traditional drumbeat and traditional garb.

 

[Aelred_Minor]

A friend who taught at a Catholic HS in an African American community invited me to their Christmas pageant. Part of the program included some interpretive dance. It was very, very different from the very traditional, classical program at my DD’s HS, but I found it very reverent and spiritual.

I’ve heard of this sort of thing. The Church permits liturgical dance for some African cultures with a strong tradition of sacred dance. African American communities sometimes emulate this, as a way of reclaiming their African cultural and spiritual heritage. There is nothing wrong, in principle, with sacred dance or with reconnecting to an ancestral culture, but in my opinion you can’t use the one to accomplish the other in the context of the Mass without subverting the meaning of the liturgy, re-orientating it from worship of God to communal narcissism.

[Note, I realize you describe a Christmas pageant rather than a mass, so the specific case you encountered may have been entirely appropriate. Also note that it is possible for people of European heritage to use the Extraordinary Form in the same spirit of cultural narcissism, though in this case there is in my opinion more possibility of a healthy and authentically pious spirit for a number of reasons, including more cultural continuity.]

 

[Aelred_Minor]

Thanks for everyone’s (name removed by moderator)ut!

Also, in answer to above: the school does have a large Asia/Pacific Islander population.

I asked because I am under the impression that in some immigrant/indigenous parishes more leeway is often given on this issue for purposes of inculturation. The ban on liturgical dance is due, primarily at least, to the secular role of dance in Western civilization. Many immigrants and American Indians are about as Western in their culture as anyone else, but others are not and the rule may not have been written with them in mind. Whether such exceptions are expressly permitted by the bishops or whether it’s a case of local pastors taking it upon themselves to decide the rules shouldn’t apply to their communities, that I don’t know.

 

[Havard]

I asked because I am under the impression that in some immigrant/indigenous parishes more leeway is often given on this issue for purposes of inculturation. The ban on liturgical dance is due, primarily at least, to the secular role of dance in Western civilization. Many immigrants and American Indians are about as Western in their culture as anyone else, but others are not and the rule may not have been written with them in mind. Whether such exceptions are expressly permitted by the bishops or whether it’s a case of local pastors taking it upon themselves to decide the rules shouldn’t apply to their communities, that I don’t know.

Check out my link in post #10.

His Eminence Cardinal Arinze seems to respond to and deny the notion that there are different standards in different continents.

 

[janeway529]

Ah…well, we have ethnic groups from Pacific nations that do entirely different sorts of things than the grade school does. THOSE are during Mass, but they aren’t prancing around choreographed by who-knows-who. They are processional elements done in traditional garb and choreographed according to a traditional standard from the home countries. I think I have seen them for the presentation of the gifts, even. I wouldn’t call them “liturgical dance,” though.

These are a million miles from the kind of thing I’ve seen (for instance) as part of the Mass procession in videos of the LA Congress. One such “production” was what I thought was a quasi-pagan monstrosity and an offense against aesthetics, not to put too fine a point on it:

youtube.com/watch?v=4kE_7pSPQP0&list=PLBsLT6gblfDDrtZzuowiosGcm5QNjBvrD

Ick. Just ick…

Just FYI, that video you linked wasn’t a Mass. It was an opening ceremony.

 

[janeway529]

Check out my link in post #10.

His Eminence Cardinal Arinze seems to respond to and deny the notion that there are different standards in different continents.

You should reference the video source which the transcript is made, since it doesn’t include all of Cardinal Arinze’s comments. Video: youtube.com/watch?v=9rJFdmmqj_s

“But it is different in Africa and in Asia. Not as a concession to them, but because their culture is different. [For example,]
if you give a typical European and a typical African the gifts at Offertory and they don’t see one another, the European will be stiff walking to the altar but the African is likely to have a swaying movement: right, left. This is not a dance. It is a graceful movement to show joy and offering. Also in Asia, they have refined movements showing respect, adoration, joy.”

This is probably what the OP’s school/parish is involved. Most likely the term “liturgical dance” is used to help describe it quickly. They should instead be using the term, “liturgical movement.”

To quote the recently deceased Bishop Cirilo Flores, “A lot of the [US] does not know how we do church in Southern California and the southwest [because of our large and diverse parishes].”

To the OP, here’s one example of “liturgical dance” from World Youth Day in Australia. It is the Gospel Procession. youtube.com/watch?v=YMgUaeejl2Q

 

[Havard]

You should reference the video source which the transcript is made, since it doesn’t include all of Cardinal Arinze’s comments. Video: youtube.com/watch?v=9rJFdmmqj_s

Thanks, I usually try to find text for videos because some people can’t follow video links, but it is good to have the whole statement.

This is probably what the OP’s school/parish is involved. Most likely the term “liturgical dance” is used to help describe it quickly. They should instead be using the term, “liturgical movement.”

As you point out, His Eminence said that certain cultures proceed towards the altar with different movements. Right on. However you also assume that this is the purpose of a school’s liturgical dance program? You lost me there. Since it’s called dance, you literally have to invoke a kind of imaginative speculation to assume it doesn’t mean dance. And secondly, it’s a dance program. People don’t offer programs for something that a one-hour workshop would be overkill for. So needless to say I’ll be surprised if it is about walking up and down the aisle a certain way.

To quote the recently deceased Bishop Cirilo Flores, “A lot of the [US] does not know how we do church in Southern California and the southwest [because of our large and diverse parishes].”

I sometimes go to the Shrine of Our Lady of Peace in Santa Clara for daily Mass, which is heavily Asian/ Pacific Islander. They have some wonderful cultural devotions. As long as cultural variations comport with what His Eminence (Arinze) and his successors say, you won’t hear any complaints here.