Liturgical Dance-when is it ok?

[elvisman]

Instead of sewing the seeds of abuse in our children, how about teaching them the divine truths of the faith?

How many of the children enrolled in religion classes in a Catholic school could enumerate even the most essential tenants of the faith? I went through 12 years of Catholic school, and by the end, I didn’t know what the Eucharist was. All I was taught was pure modernist claptrap and hippy-inspired nonsense. It made me think religion was all fluff and stupidity. It took these forums to convince me otherwise. Catholic education should have taken care of that, but it failed miserably.

Liturgical dance is liturgical abuse.
Somebody on this board has a great signature line that reads:
"They will be plenty of time for liturgical dance in Purgatory"

 

[Spiller]

Instead of sewing the seeds of abuse in our children, how about teaching them the divine truths of the faith?

How many of the children enrolled in religion classes in a Catholic school could enumerate even the most essential tenants of the faith? I went through 12 years of Catholic school, and by the end, I didn’t know what the Eucharist was. All I was taught was pure modernist claptrap and hippy-inspired nonsense. It made me think religion was all fluff and stupidity. It took these forums to convince me otherwise. Catholic education should have taken care of that, but it failed miserably.

Good catechesis would include understanding when and where dance was an appropriate part of the Mass. Your “never” response was factually incorrect and it would be wrong to teach that to children.

Their are clearly things you dislike that can be legitimately incorporated into the Mass per the Church’s actual instructions. They are not a product of what you term “hippy-inspired nonsense.” That might cause you anxiety and frustration, but that’s a product of your own formation as a Catholic Christian, and not what the Church actually allows.

 

[Spiller]

Liturgical dance is liturgical abuse.
Somebody on this board has a great signature line that reads:
“They will be plenty of time for liturgical dance in Purgatory”

Your comments are inaccurate. Read the Adoremus link.

 

[Spiller]

The problem with comments like this is that the OP asked a question, many people on here are giving their opinion of Liturgical Dance as an abuse. The OP asked is liturgical dance ever permitted. The answer is YES as long as it meets certain requirements as defined by the Vatican. Giving your opinions or saying that the teacher should be or shouldn’t be doing something doesn’t really help the OP in getting a clear answer.

Yes liturgical abuse during Mass in a “western” church is prohibited but if it is part of a school assignment, the teacher can do it.

For all you know the teacher is doing this to show the kids how silly it looks, and imagine what it would be like during Mass.

So true. I think nonsense comments really weaken the voice of those who want to see true liturgical reform in the Church

 

[elvisman]

Your comments are inaccurate. Read the Adoremus link.

**Here is what Benedict XVI wrote about liturgical dancing when he was Cardinal Ratzinger:

"Dancing is not a form of expression for the Christian liturgy. In about the third century, there was an attempt by certain Gnostic-Docetic circles to introduce it into the liturgy. … The cultic dances of the different religions have different purposes–incantation, imitative magic, mystical ecstasy–none of which is compatible with the essential purpose of the liturgy. …

"It is totally absurd to try to make the liturgy ‘attractive’ by introducing dancing pantomimes (wherever possible performed by professional dance troupes), which frequently (and rightly, from the professionals’ point of view) end with applause. Whenever applause breaks out in the liturgy because of some human achievement, it is a sure sign that the essence of liturgy has totally disappeared and been replaced by a kind of religious entertainment. …

"I myself have experienced the replacing of the penitential rite by a dance performance, which, needless to say, received a round of applause. Could there be anything further removed from true penitence? …

“None of the Christian rites includes dancing. What people call dancing in the Ethiopian rite or the Zairean form of the Roman liturgy is in fact a rhythmically ordered procession, very much in keeping with the dignity of the occasion.”
**

 

[Lepanto]

My high school daughter has a religion class project of putting together a Liturgical Dance. I know there were a million threads about Liturgical Dance during Mass, but I am wondering when is the proper time it can be performed? Is there an acceptable type of music for Liturgical Dance? My daughter has done some research, but there are so many different schools of thought, we are confused.

Another twist on this…

Strictly speaking, in order for anything to be “Liturgical,” it must be regulated by the various liturgical books and documents which include the actual rites for said liturgies. For example, baptisms and benedictions are both “liturgical.”

However, many things that people call liturgical are not actually liturgical at all. For example, the rosary or the stations of the cross may be beautiful devotionals, but they are NOT liturgical. Likewise, any type of dance can not be “liturgical,” by definition.

Bottom line: “Liturgical Dance” is an oxymoron and therefore has no place in liturgy. It’s a devotional (at best).

 

[Dauphin]

Good catechesis would include understanding when and where dance was an appropriate part of the Mass. Your “never” response was factually incorrect and it would be wrong to teach that to children.

The rare expections you’re talking about only serve to confuse the faithful and act as a springboard and justification for abuses.

My “never” response is the best answer to give. There are virtually no circumstances in which a normal Catholic would encounter liturgical dance that is anything but an abuse.

Good catechesis would include informing children why the liturgy is about God, not about us. Teaching them “when and where” dance is appropriate would only serve to confuse them. These distinctions between legitimate cultural expressions of true worship and ludicrous abuses that turn the Mass into a performance are for those who govern the liturgy, not for children. Children should be informed about what our culture allows in the Mass, not some African exception.

Their are clearly things you dislike that can be legitimately incorporated into the Mass per the Church’s actual instructions. They are not a product of what you term “hippy-inspired nonsense.” That might cause you anxiety and frustration, but that’s a product of your own formation as a Catholic Christian, and not what the Church actually allows.

I never said I dislike genuine liturgical dance that doesn’t take on the qualities of a performance and is understood as an expression of worship particular to certain cultures.

However, the fact that such inculturations exist is irrelevant. In North America, the answer to whether liturgical dance is allowed is “no”. If the children were going on a trip to Zimbabwe, maybe it would be reasonable to inform them of cultural expressions of worship they might find integrated into the Mass.

 

[rpp]

The rare expections you’re talking about only serve to confuse the faithful and act as a springboard and justification for abuses.

My “never” response is the best answer to give. There are virtually no circumstances in which a normal Catholic would encounter liturgical dance that is anything but an abuse.

Good catechesis would include informing children why the liturgy is about God, not about us. Teaching them “when and where” dance is appropriate would only serve to confuse them. These distinctions between legitimate cultural expressions of true worship and ludicrous abuses that turn the Mass into a performance are for those who govern the liturgy, not for children. Children should be informed about what our culture allows in the Mass, not some African exception.

I never said I dislike genuine liturgical dance that doesn’t take on the qualities of a performance and is understood as an expression of worship particular to certain cultures.

However, the fact that such inculturations exist is irrelevant. In North America, the answer to whether liturgical dance is allowed is “no”. If the children were going on a trip to Zimbabwe, maybe it would be reasonable to inform them of cultural expressions of worship they might find integrated into the Mass.

Dauphin, well said.

I, like most of the people here, presumed you were speaking in the context of typical North American and European culture, which are quite similar. Thus we assumed that the rare exceptions, which are culturally based, would not apply.

In addition, the phrase “liturgical dance” implies doing it at Mass. After all, “liturgy” means a form of public worship. North American and European countries have always seen a dance performance as entertainment. Entertainment can NEVER be liturgical.

Thank you for your clarity and steadfastness to the truth.

 

[Spiller]

Here is what Benedict XVI wrote about liturgical dancing when he was Cardinal Ratzinger:

"Dancing is not a form of expression for the Christian liturgy. In about the third century, there was an attempt by certain Gnostic-Docetic circles to introduce it into the liturgy. … The cultic dances of the different religions have different purposes–incantation, imitative magic, mystical ecstasy–none of which is compatible with the essential purpose of the liturgy. …

"It is totally absurd to try to make the liturgy ‘attractive’ by introducing dancing pantomimes (wherever possible performed by professional dance troupes), which frequently (and rightly, from the professionals’ point of view) end with applause. Whenever applause breaks out in the liturgy because of some human achievement, it is a sure sign that the essence of liturgy has totally disappeared and been replaced by a kind of religious entertainment. …

"I myself have experienced the replacing of the penitential rite by a dance performance, which, needless to say, received a round of applause. Could there be anything further removed from true penitence? …

“None of the Christian rites includes dancing. What people call dancing in the Ethiopian rite or the Zairean form of the Roman liturgy is in fact a rhythmically ordered procession, very much in keeping with the dignity of the occasion.”

Please produce a Church document that prohibits dance in all liturgies at all times…

ewtn.com/library/CURIA/CDWDANCE.HTM

 

[Spiller]

The rare expections you’re talking about only serve to confuse the faithful and act as a springboard and justification for abuses.

My “never” response is the best answer to give. There are virtually no circumstances in which a normal Catholic would encounter liturgical dance that is anything but an abuse.

No way. Your “never” retort is simply wrong. It’s not the best answer – it’s not factual. Worse, comments like that damage the voice of those seeking true liturgical reform.

Good catechesis would include informing children why the liturgy is about God, not about us. Teaching them “when and where” dance is appropriate would only serve to confuse them. These distinctions between legitimate cultural expressions of true worship and ludicrous abuses that turn the Mass into a performance are for those who govern the liturgy, not for children. Children should be informed about what our culture allows in the Mass, not some African exception.

Again, you are wrong. It’s never OK to teach inaccuracies. All it does it confuse people and ruin the teachers’ credibility.

I never said I dislike genuine liturgical dance that doesn’t take on the qualities of a performance and is understood as an expression of worship particular to certain cultures.

Oki-doki.

However, the fact that such inculturations exist is irrelevant. In North America, the answer to whether liturgical dance is allowed is “no”. If the children were going on a trip to Zimbabwe, maybe it would be reasonable to inform them of cultural expressions of worship they might find integrated into the Mass.

It’s never OK to teach inaccuracies. Never. Give those learning a bit of credit. If I sat through a class or was told in a conversation by a teacher that dance can “N.E.V.E.R.” be part of the Mass, they would lose any credibility they had right on the spot.

No, you cannot foist your opinions on others because you personally feel the truth might “confuse” them. Anything other than the truth causes a great deal more confusion – and problems. As a teacher one has the responsibility to teach the truth, and not a redacted version that more closely follows their own personal opinions.

 

[Spiller]

It emphasizes the seriousness of this particular abuse of the liturgy. The idea that someone can write their own liturgy, to introduce practices that are not part of their culture and ignore Church law are not issues of small consequence.

Are you serious? Your sarcasm reflects horribly on you and kills your credibility. Worse it could actually lead people astray.

You may not like my response, but it is correct.

Quite the contrary. It’s been shown to be wrong.

Liturgical dance may be permitted in some native African liturgies, for example, because dance is part of cultural practices with some peoples there. These cultural practices involve the community and are not some form of entertainment for elites. Such cultural and community traditions do not exist in the USA except as a form of entertainment that appeals to a small minority.

Your initial retort was not only sarcastic, it was inaccurate. Read the actual Church documents referenced on this thread.

 

[rpp]

Are you serious? Your sarcasm reflects horribly on you and kills your credibility. Worse it could actually lead people astray.

Quite the contrary. It’s been shown to be wrong.

Your initial retort was not only sarcastic, it was inaccurate. Read the actual Church documents referenced on this thread.

Bye.

 

[Ignatius]

My high school daughter has a religion class project of putting together a Liturgical Dance. I know there were a million threads about Liturgical Dance during Mass, but I am wondering when is the proper time it can be performed? Is there an acceptable type of music for Liturgical Dance?

There is only one Authentic school of thought, and that is the Magisterium of the Catholic Church in concert with the commission on the Liturgy of the Catholic Church.

Liturgical dance is forbidden in the US, Canada, Mexico, Australia, Europe and virtually anywhere except “missionary” churches in primative areas.

 

[Spiller]

Dauphin, well said.

I, like most of the people here, presumed you were speaking in the context of typical North American and European culture, which are quite similar. Thus we assumed that the rare exceptions, which are culturally based, would not apply.

In addition, the phrase “liturgical dance” implies doing it at Mass. After all, “liturgy” means a form of public worship. North American and European countries have always seen a dance performance as entertainment. Entertainment can NEVER be liturgical.

Thank you for your clarity and steadfastness to the truth.

Actually you are wrong. While I have no personal knowledge of them, I am sure there is at least one parish in the USA comprised largely of immigrants from a part of the world where dance IS a part of their tradition. Like other traditions I am sure they are licitly maintained even in America.

 

[Spiller]

There is only one Authentic school of thought, and that is the Magisterium of the Catholic Church in concert with the commission on the Liturgy of the Catholic Church.

Liturgical dance is forbidden.

No it is not. You should read some of the documents that have been noted on this thread.

 

[Dauphin]

No way. Your “never” retort is simply wrong. It’s not the best answer – it’s not factual. Worse, comments like that damage the voice of those seeking true liturgical reform.

Again, you are wrong. It’s never OK to teach inaccuracies. All it does it confuse people and ruin the teachers’ credibility.

Oki-doki.

It’s never OK to teach inaccuracies. Never. Give those learning a bit of credit. If I sat through a class or was told in a conversation by a teacher that dance can “N.E.V.E.R.” be part of the Mass, they would lose any credibility they had right on the spot.

No, you cannot foist your opinions on others because you personally feel the truth might “confuse” them. Anything other than the truth causes a great deal more confusion – and problems. As a teacher one has the responsibility to teach the truth, and not a redacted version that more closely follows their own personal opinions.

Where did I encourage falsehood? I simply recommended teaching what the practice is in our culture, and not going out of the way to examine what is permitted in other rites or other authorized forms of the Roman Rite.

In a Mass celebrated at a normal American parish, liturgical dance is NEVER permitted. It is not approved for random introduction into the liturgy.

 

[Lovemyfaith]

Oh dear.

I think I will have my daughter go through this thread and pick out what she can. I don’t think it was intended to perform the Liturgical Dance during any Mass, but I have to admit the “experience prayer in a unique and spiritual way through the art of movement” was confusing to me.

 

[Quasi]

Cardinal Arinze is from Nigeria (Africa) -

Has liturgical dance been approved for Masses by your office?

There has never been a document from our Congregation for Divine Worship and Discipline of the Sacraments saying that dance is approved in the Mass.

The question of dance is difficult and delicate. However, it is good to know that the tradition of the Latin Church has not known the dance. It is something that people are introducing in the last ten years – or twenty years. It was not always so. Now it is spreading like wildfire, one can say, in all the continents – some more than others. In my own continent, Africa, it is spreading. In Asia, it is spreading.

Now, some priests and lay people think that Mass is never complete without dance. The difficulty is this: we come to Mass primarily to adore God – what we call the vertical dimension. We do not come to Mass to entertain one another. That’s not the purpose of Mass. The parish hall is for that.

So all those that want to entertain us – after Mass, let us go to the parish hall and then you can dance. And then we clap. But when we come to Mass we don’t come to clap. We don’t come to watch people, to admire people. We want to adore God, to thank Him, to ask Him pardon for our sins, and to ask Him for what we need.

Don’t misunderstand me, because when I said this at one place somebody said to me: “you are an African bishop. You Africans are always dancing. Why do you say we don’t dance?”

A moment – we Africans are not always dancing! [laughter]

Moreover, there is a difference between those who come in procession at Offertory; they bring their gifts, with joy. There is a movement of the body right and left. They bring their gifts to God. That is good, really. And some of the choir, they sing. They have a little bit of movement. Nobody is going to condemn that. And when you are going out again, a little movement, it’s all right.

But when you introduce wholesale, say, a ballerina, then I want to ask you what is it all about. What exactly are you arranging? When the people finish dancing in the Mass and then when the dance group finishes and people clap – don’t you see what it means? It means we have enjoyed it. We come for enjoyment. Repeat. So, there is something wrong. Whenever the people clap – there is something wrong – immediately. When they clap – a dance is done and they clap.

It is possible that there could be a dance that is so exquisite that it raises people’s minds to God, and they are praying and adoring God and when the dance is finished they are still wrapped up in prayer. But is that the type of dance you have seen? You see. It is not easy.

Most dances that are staged during Mass should have been done in the parish hall. And some of them are not even suitable for the parish hall.

I saw in one place – I will not tell you where – where they staged a dance during Mass, and that dance was offensive. It broke the rules of moral theology and modesty. Those who arranged it – they should have had their heads washed with a bucket of holy water! [laughter]

Why make the people of God suffer so much? Haven’t we enough problems already? Only Sunday, one hour, they come to adore God. And you bring a dance! Are you so poor you have nothing else to bring us? Shame on you! That’s how I feel about it.

Somebody can say, “but the pope visited this county and the people danced”. A moment: Did the pope arrange it? Poor Holy Father – he comes, the people arranged. He does not know what they arranged. And somebody introduces something funny – is the pope responsible for that? Does that mean it is now approved? Did they put in on the table of the Congregation for Divine Worship? We would throw it out! If people want to dance, they know where to go.

 

[SMHW]

Another twist on this…

Strictly speaking, in order for anything to be “Liturgical,” it must be regulated by the various liturgical books and documents which include the actual rites for said liturgies. For example, baptisms and benedictions are both “liturgical.”

However, many things that people call liturgical are not actually liturgical at all. For example, the rosary or the stations of the cross may be beautiful devotionals, but they are NOT liturgical. Likewise, any type of dance can not be “liturgical,” by definition.

Bottom line: “Liturgical Dance” is an oxymoron and therefore has no place in liturgy. It’s a devotional (at best).

I was going to say something like this.

To the best of my knowledge there is no reason why there could not be “Devotional Dance” — given the proper venue.

But at the present time there are no “liturgies” for which dance is licit.

 

[rpp]

Cardinal Arinze is from Nigeria (Africa) -

Has liturgical dance been approved for Masses by your office?

There has never been a document from our Congregation for Divine Worship and Discipline of the Sacraments saying that dance is approved in the Mass.

The question of dance is difficult and delicate. However, it is good to know that the tradition of the Latin Church has not known the dance. It is something that people are introducing in the last ten years – or twenty years. It was not always so. Now it is spreading like wildfire, one can say, in all the continents – some more than others. In my own continent, Africa, it is spreading. In Asia, it is spreading.

Now, some priests and lay people think that Mass is never complete without dance. The difficulty is this: we come to Mass primarily to adore God – what we call the vertical dimension. We do not come to Mass to entertain one another. That’s not the purpose of Mass. The parish hall is for that.

So all those that want to entertain us – after Mass, let us go to the parish hall and then you can dance. And then we clap. But when we come to Mass we don’t come to clap. We don’t come to watch people, to admire people. We want to adore God, to thank Him, to ask Him pardon for our sins, and to ask Him for what we need.

Don’t misunderstand me, because when I said this at one place somebody said to me: “you are an African bishop. You Africans are always dancing. Why do you say we don’t dance?”

A moment – we Africans are not always dancing! [laughter]

Moreover, there is a difference between those who come in procession at Offertory; they bring their gifts, with joy. There is a movement of the body right and left. They bring their gifts to God. That is good, really. And some of the choir, they sing. They have a little bit of movement. Nobody is going to condemn that. And when you are going out again, a little movement, it’s all right.

But when you introduce wholesale, say, a ballerina, then I want to ask you what is it all about. What exactly are you arranging? When the people finish dancing in the Mass and then when the dance group finishes and people clap – don’t you see what it means? It means we have enjoyed it. We come for enjoyment. Repeat. So, there is something wrong. Whenever the people clap – there is something wrong – immediately. When they clap – a dance is done and they clap.

It is possible that there could be a dance that is so exquisite that it raises people’s minds to God, and they are praying and adoring God and when the dance is finished they are still wrapped up in prayer. But is that the type of dance you have seen? You see. It is not easy.

Most dances that are staged during Mass should have been done in the parish hall. And some of them are not even suitable for the parish hall.

I saw in one place – I will not tell you where – where they staged a dance during Mass, and that dance was offensive. It broke the rules of moral theology and modesty. Those who arranged it – they should have had their heads washed with a bucket of holy water! [laughter]

Why make the people of God suffer so much? Haven’t we enough problems already? Only Sunday, one hour, they come to adore God. And you bring a dance! Are you so poor you have nothing else to bring us? Shame on you! That’s how I feel about it.

Somebody can say, “but the pope visited this county and the people danced”. A moment: Did the pope arrange it? Poor Holy Father – he comes, the people arranged. He does not know what they arranged. And somebody introduces something funny – is the pope responsible for that? Does that mean it is now approved? Did they put in on the table of the Congregation for Divine Worship? We would throw it out! If people want to dance, they know where to go.

Do you have a link to this?