Liturgical Dancing

[Lycorth]

Just another nauseating fallout of the modernization of Western civilization and the permeation of modernism into the Church. Nothing is quite so obnoxious and pretentious as dancing during the Mass; I am thankful that I have not had to sit through something like this, at least not yet and hopefully not ever.

Cardinal Arinze really hit the ball out of the park. Take it to the parish hall if you have to dance so badly. You’re at church for one hour - can’t you just be worshipful and devout for a single hour without making a big spectacle out of it?

 

[boatbearer]

Just another nauseating fallout of the modernization of Western civilization and the permeation of modernism into the Church. Nothing is quite so obnoxious and pretentious as dancing during the Mass; I am thankful that I have not had to sit through something like this, at least not yet and hopefully not ever.

Not true. In cases where dance is licitly part of the Latin Rite Mass, the ritual comes from ancient use and not “modernism.”

Cardinal Arinze really hit the ball out of the park. Take it to the parish hall if you have to dance so badly. You’re at church for one hour - can’t you just be worshipful and devout for a single hour without making a big spectacle out of it?

Yet Arinze’s casual comments are in no way binding. It would truly be wrong to suggest most of the liturgical dance that most are exposed to is “ok” – even though there is clearly no official prohibition against it. On the other hand it would be resoundingly ignorant to suggest that liturgical dance is always wrong when practiced in the Latin Rite in all places and under all circumstances.

What you personally define as “worshipful and devout” differs from person to person and the Mass DOES licitly allow for variation. I run into many that suggest the solemn bells & smells are a “big spectacle” that get in the way of worshiping God. How do you respond to them? Why does your personal taste trump their own – it’s certainly not because of what the Church teaches or directs.

 

[benedictgal]

Yet Arinze’s casual comments are in no way binding. It would truly be wrong to suggest most of the liturgical dance that most are exposed to is “ok” – even though there is clearly no official prohibition against it. On the other hand it would be resoundingly ignorant to suggest that liturgical dance is always wrong when practiced in the Latin Rite in all places and under all circumstances.

What you personally define as “worshipful and devout” differs from person to person and the Mass DOES licitly allow for variation. I run into many that suggest the solemn bells & smells are a “big spectacle” that get in the way of worshiping God. How do you respond to them? Why does your personal taste trump their own – it’s certainly not because of what the Church teaches or directs.

However, the Church has already released a statement about this so-called “liturgical dance”, something that you routinely seem to ignore. Cardinal Arinze’s statement is consistent with what the CDWDS stated in 1975.

 

[Lycorth]

Yet Arinze’s casual comments are in no way binding. It would truly be wrong to suggest most of the liturgical dance that most are exposed to is “ok” – even though there is clearly no official prohibition against it. On the other hand it would be resoundingly ignorant to suggest that liturgical dance is always wrong when practiced in the Latin Rite in all places and under all circumstances.

What you personally define as “worshipful and devout” differs from person to person and the Mass DOES licitly allow for variation. I run into many that suggest the solemn bells & smells are a “big spectacle” that get in the way of worshiping God. How do you respond to them? Why does your personal taste trump their own – it’s certainly not because of what the Church teaches or directs.

Like benedictgal said, the liturgical dance matter was addressed by Cardinal Arinze in a manner consistent with the Church’s own statement. I know Arinze’s statements were not officially binding and I never said they were - what I did imply was that his statements were accurate and important nonetheless.

This has nothing to do with my own opinions but rather with centuries of established practice that has roots in both Scripture and the traditional Church. Modern people are too caught up in “personal opinions”; this is something bigger than that - the modernist perversion of a perfectly fine religion that didn’t need tampering with and is now paying the price for said modernist tampering. Those solemn bells and smells served to build and sustain a truly universal and potent faith that swept the world and built an entire civilization; novelties like liturgical dancing and other tinkering have only helped to empty churches, drain seminaries, and turn the Faith of the saints and great men of Western past into an irrelevant laughing stock [edited]

Unless of course you believe the Church and modern civilization isn’t in crisis…? If you think everything is fine, then you are right and no one should complain about such novelties. If everything is not fine, everything that has changed since the “good old days” is suspect and needs to be critically examined.

 

[Brendan]

One thing to keep in mind if your parish starts 'liturgical dance". Vatican II was all about the active paritipation of the laity and an end to simply performance works.

So if they start liturgical dance at your parish, they CLEARLY desire everyone to join in.

So feel free to get up and join them, do your best 'John Travolta\Saturday Night Fever" moves, break dance. Start the “Chicken Dance”, that’s one of God’s creatures, isn’t it…?

After all, that is the active participation that the 'Spirit of Vatican II" calls for, right?

 

[Rachel_1]

I live in the greater San Francisco Bay Area. I would gladly leave the parish but most (if not all) of the nearby parishes are just as bad if not worse.

I’ve meaning to write a letter to my local bishop. I guess I can’t put it off anymore.

Hi Robert,
Check here and see if any of these parishes would work for you
web2.airmail.net/carlsch/MaterDei/churches.htm#california

 

[EasterJoy]

But, with all due respect, I think that you are missing the point in your first paragraphs. The context and the problem lie in the fact that Cinco de Mayo is still a secular holiday, not a religious one. A legitimate use of the dance revolves around the feast of Our Lady of Guadalupe, which predates Cinco de Mayo by nearly three centuries. Furthermore, this dance was done as a specific tribute to her, not in celebration of a battle.

Furthermore, would you be in favor of having a Mass (complete with dancing) on November 20th, another Mexican holiday that celebrates the adoption of a constitution that wound up leading to the martyrdom of thousands of priests and laity and would not allow, until some 20 years ago, priests and bishops to wear their clerical garb? At least, thank God, some parts of the constitution were abrogated, but, I would not necessarily want to have a Mass to mark the significance of November 20th, since three days later, the Church marks the martyrdom of Mexico’s Pro-to Martyr, Blessed Miguel Pro (and his feast is certainly not marked with Matachines dancing).

Our Lady of Guadalupe is patroness of all the Americas, though. Of course a Mass in celebration of the survival of Mexico would be in her honor. And Cinco de Mayo is a day about rejoicing in being Mexican, as surely as Hannakah is about being Jewish. At its heart, that holiday is about a victory over a foreign power, too, after all. Yet that is not what it is about. It is about survival.

The alternative is that Mexican Catholics divorce this day in which they rejoice in being Mexican from their gratitude for being Catholic. That is just what the authors of the constitution intended. The hearts of Mexicans did not let go of their faith so easily. That is something to celebrate. If people of Mexican heritage living in the United States going to celebrate Cinco de Mayo–and they will–it ought to be a day to honor Our Lady, too.

You do not mark the feast of a martyr, OTOH, in the same way as you mark the special favors of Our Lady. That is not a bad thing, and nothing against martyrs. It isn’t a competition.

When we celebrate July 4th, after all, are we celebrating the concept that a slave is to be accounted 3/5 of person? That only land-owning males ought to choose our representative government? The *Dred Scot *decision? Of course not. I hope you wouldn’t be against having a Mass of Thanksgiving on July 4, inside the United States or out of it. I live in Oregon, which had one of the biggest and most virulently anti-Catholic organization of the KKK outside of the South. From 1923 until this year, we have had a law on the books forbidding religious garb in public schools, and it was passed in order to prevent priests and nuns from teaching. I have never thought of a celebration of Oregon as a celebration of the KKK or that ugly law. Quite the opposite.

 

[benedictgal]

Our Lady of Guadalupe is patroness of all the Americas, though. Of course a Mass in celebration of the survival of Mexico would be in her honor. And Cinco de Mayo is a day about rejoicing in being Mexican, as surely as Hannakah is about being Jewish. At its heart, that holiday is about a victory over a foreign power, too, after all. Yet that is not what it is about. It is about survival.

The alternative is that Mexican Catholics divorce this day in which they rejoice in being Mexican from their gratitude for being Catholic. That is just what the authors of the constitution intended. The hearts of Mexicans did not let go of their faith so easily. That is something to celebrate. If people of Mexican heritage living in the United States going to celebrate Cinco de Mayo–and they will–it ought to be a day to honor Our Lady, too.

You do not mark the feast of a martyr, OTOH, in the same way as you mark the special favors of Our Lady. That is not a bad thing, and nothing against martyrs. It isn’t a competition.

When we celebrate July 4th, after all, are we celebrating the concept that a slave is to be accounted 3/5 of person? That only land-owning males ought to choose our representative government? The *Dred Scot *decision? Of course not. I hope you wouldn’t be against having a Mass of Thanksgiving on July 4, inside the United States or out of it. I live in Oregon, which had one of the biggest and most virulently anti-Catholic organization of the KKK outside of the South. From 1923 until this year, we have had a law on the books forbidding religious garb in public schools, and it was passed in order to prevent priests and nuns from teaching. I have never thought of a celebration of Oregon as a celebration of the KKK or that ugly law. Quite the opposite.

I live on the Texas-Mexican border. No one makes quite a huge deal about Cinco de Mayo down here, not even to the point of having a Mass to mark the occasion. It seems that the ones who make a bigger deal out of it are the folks who market Coronoa and the like. In fact, Cinco de Mayo celebrations down here only go so far as laying a wreath in front of native Texan Gen. Zaragoza, but, that is the extent of it.

I stand by my statements regarding the impropriety of introducing “dance” into the Mass to mark a secular holiday. Interestingly enough, there is nothing in the Roman Missal (approved for use in Mexico) that marks either Cinco de Mayo, 16 de septiembre or 20 de noviembre, for that matter. As far as I can tell, the only country that has its own preface to mark Independence Day is the United States of America.

 

[Robert_Burke]

I appreciate the list of Masses that Rachel sent, but trying to find a parish that offers the TLM is not an answer to my problems. Although I loved the Latin Mass when I was a child and still enjoy the Latin Mass today (both TLM and Novus Ordo) my wife is an adult convert. She did not grow up with the Latin Mass. Nor have my children. Although I have taken them to Latin Mass with me, they have a right to attend Mass in English, albeit a Mass that is celebrated in full accord with the teachings, rules, and regulations of the Church.

What I would really like to find is a parish that offers an English Mass, celebrated according to Rubrics for the Mass, with tradtional Catholic music. I’d like to find a parish where the prayers of the Mass are not altered because the choir likes its version of the Mass better. I’d like to find a parish where the Responsorial Psalm in the missalette is said or sung and not replaced by a mere hymn at the choir director’s whim.

I don’t think I’m asking for too much, but I guess most of the parishes within 20 miles of me think so because I haven’t been able to find any parishes in my area that meet my spiritual needs.

 

[pnewton]

But, with all due respect, I think that you are missing the point in your first paragraphs. The context and the problem lie in the fact that Cinco de Mayo is still a secular holiday, not a religious one. A legitimate use of the dance revolves around the feast of Our Lady of Guadalupe, which predates Cinco de Mayo by nearly three centuries. Furthermore, this dance was done as a specific tribute to her, not in celebration of a battle. ).

Just another nauseating fallout of the modernization of Western civilization and the permeation of modernism into the Church.

In the case of the Matachines, they predate modernism. I know this is not what most are exposed to when they have liturgical dancing, but this is a Catholic Tradition that is centuries old, with many of the dancers coming from generations of a family tradition. This is probably the only liturgical dance in the Americas that would correspond to what Cardinal Arinze was referring to in Africa.

For those who have never seen this, it is something to behold. The dedication of these dancers build in a love for the Virgin Mary that should serve as inspiration to us all (just as long as it doesn’t inspire use to try some stupid dance of our own).

 

[benedictgal]

In the case of the Matachines, they predate modernism. I know this is not what most are exposed to when they have liturgical dancing, but this is a Catholic Tradition that is centuries old, with many of the dancers coming from generations of a family tradition. This is probably the only liturgical dance in the Americas that would correspond to what Cardinal Arinze was referring to in Africa.

For those who have never seen this, it is something to behold. The dedication of these dancers build in a love for the Virgin Mary that should serve as inspiration to us all (just as long as it doesn’t inspire use to try some stupid dance of our own).

Yes, the Matachines are very precise and very focused in their dance. It is a ritual dance that is almost 500 years old. It is measured and done with a lot of solemnity. Now, they will do this ritual dance during the nine day novena to Our Lady of Guadalupe. In some instances, they will do this dance over a long distance. Pnewton probably gets the abbreviated version, but, down here, the dance can go on for several blocks. On the very day of the feast, just before the first Mass (at about 5:45AM, they will perform their ritual dance outside of the church and then go inside. The faithful are very quiet as this is being done. After the dance, the entrance processional begins.

The Matachines are also quite generational. Some have traced their ancestry back to the Aztecs.

 

[5Loaves]

…What I would really like to find is a parish that offers an English Mass, celebrated according to Rubrics for the Mass, with tradtional Catholic music. I’d like to find a parish where the prayers of the Mass are not altered because the choir likes its version of the Mass better. I’d like to find a parish where the Responsorial Psalm in the missalette is said or sung and not replaced by a mere hymn at the choir director’s whim.

I don’t think I’m asking for too much, but I guess most of the parishes within 20 miles of me think so because I haven’t been able to find any parishes in my area that meet my spiritual needs.

I suggest you contact Fr. Jeffrey Keyes at St. Edward Catholic Parish in Newark. Newark is in the “greater San Francisco Bay Area”. If St. Edward’s isn’t in your part of the Bay Area Fr Keyes very likely can give you some suggestions for the kind of parish you’re interested in within 20 miles of your home. I had him as an instructor several years ago and run into him from time to time at the Cathedral of Christ the Light. He has a keen interest in orthodox liturgy including hymnography, Father Jerry Brown pastor at Immaculate Heart of Mary Catholic Church in Brentwood is also a source for finding an orthodox parish. While St. Margaret Mary in Oakland does celebrate the Extraordinary Form of the Mass (as well as Lauds) daily they also celebrate the Ordinary Form of the Mass, and surely do so in an orthodox way. The Mass at St. Albert’s Priory is orthodox and you can participate in the Divine Office daily as well.

 

[Ockham]

On the other hand it would be resoundingly ignorant to suggest that liturgical dance is always wrong when practiced in the Latin Rite in all places and under all circumstances.

“Dancing is not a form of expression for the Christian liturgy.” “It is totally absurd to try to make the liturgy “attractive” by introducing dancing pantomimes (wherever possible performed by professional dance troupes), which frequently (and rightly, from the professionals’ point of view) end with applause.”

Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger (Pope Benedict XVI)
“Spirit of the Liturgy”
page 198

 

[Rachel_1]

I appreciate the list of Masses that Rachel sent, but trying to find a parish that offers the TLM is not an answer to my problems. Although I loved the Latin Mass when I was a child and still enjoy the Latin Mass today (both TLM and Novus Ordo) my wife is an adult convert. She did not grow up with the Latin Mass. Nor have my children. Although I have taken them to Latin Mass with me, they have a right to attend Mass in English, albeit a Mass that is celebrated in full accord with the teachings, rules, and regulations of the Church.

What I would really like to find is a parish that offers an English Mass, celebrated according to Rubrics for the Mass, with tradtional Catholic music. I’d like to find a parish where the prayers of the Mass are not altered because the choir likes its version of the Mass better. I’d like to find a parish where the Responsorial Psalm in the missalette is said or sung and not replaced by a mere hymn at the choir director’s whim.

I don’t think I’m asking for too much, but I guess most of the parishes within 20 miles of me think so because I haven’t been able to find any parishes in my area that meet my spiritual needs.

Hi Robert,
Please don’t take that I sent you that list because I think you ‘have to’ attend Latin Mass.
You see, I JUST entered the Church myself, literally. I just had my First Communion in late March and was just Confirmed last Sunday. I was not brought up with Latin or any Mass for that matter, so I understand about your wife and kids.
The reason I gave you that list, with my limited knowledge of how parishes work, is because in my little bit of experience (and what I’ve read around these forums) the parishes that offer Latin Mass tend to celebrate the way they should without adding extras or anything like that. Also, in the few that I checked out on the list, they only offer Latin once or twice a month at best, so they are mainly English.
I just thought maybe you’d be able to use the list and see if there’s a parish on it near you that maybe you hadn’t realized was there or something ~shrug~
I hope you find what you’re looking for, either at the parish you’re at or another one. I’ll pray for you and your family, and for the parish that you’re discussing.

 

[Lycorth]

“Dancing is not a form of expression for the Christian liturgy.” “It is totally absurd to try to make the liturgy “attractive” by introducing dancing pantomimes (wherever possible performed by professional dance troupes), which frequently (and rightly, from the professionals’ point of view) end with applause.”

Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger (Pope Benedict XVI)
“Spirit of the Liturgy”
page 198

Great quote

The Matachines are an exception to the rule - the exception that proves the rule. Only they have managed to use a dance form in a respectful fashion, and that because it’s culturally-rooted, centuries-old, and carries with it none of the implications and baggage that any other attempt at liturgical dance would today.

Unless you’re of their people and culture and have the right understanding of their dance, any attempt at liturgical dance will blow up in your face. The now-pope’s words contain all we need for our position on this matter.

 

[pnewton]

The Matachines are an exception to the rule - the exception that proves the rule. Only they have managed to use a dance form in a respectful fashion, and that because it’s culturally-rooted, centuries-old, and carries with it none of the implications and baggage that any other attempt at liturgical dance would today.

Unless you’re of their people and culture and have the right understanding of their dance, any attempt at liturgical dance will blow up in your face.

I think this pretty much sums up my opinion on the subject. The sad thing is that those that put on these fabricated dance recitals actually think it is meaningful, without realizing the pain and frustration they cause their captive victims who just wanted to attend Mass.

 

[Rachel_1]

I think this pretty much sums up my opinion on the subject. The sad thing is that those that put on these fabricated dance recitals actually think it is meaningful, without realizing the pain and frustration they cause their captive victims who just wanted to attend Mass.

I can’t stop staring at the cat on your hand

 

[Lycorth]

I think this pretty much sums up my opinion on the subject. The sad thing is that those that put on these fabricated dance recitals actually think it is meaningful, without realizing the pain and frustration they cause their captive victims who just wanted to attend Mass.

Indeed - it’s a horrible source of scandal, and pride on the part of those who are thinking only of their own tastes rather than of the Church and what has served it perfectly well for centuries.

Also, I love the kitty as well

 

[boatbearer]

Well, it depends. We have a large Phillipino population here in the Archdiocese of Portland in Oregon. Not only does Archbishop Vlazny allow their traditional liturgical dance done in traditional dress, but he accepted their offer to do it for his anniversary Mass of Thanksgiving. Likewise for the Cinco de Mayo Mass: there is traditional dance and music, done by Catholics of Mexican descent, but as it has traditionally been done in Mexico. It is an expression of their unique Catholic heritage, which they brought with them when they immigrated here.

In these cases, though, the music and dance is done as it has always been done. The dress, choreography, and music have to follow the traditional norms. The goal is not to invent something, but to preserve something that has withstood the test of time. That is the difference.

When you think about it, it makes sense. You can’t send missionaries into a new culture, incorporate their identity into the Mass, and then say, **“ooops, you’ve been Catholic long enough. Welcome to America, land of the lowest common denominator.”
**
That is also another good reason to encourage the Latin Mass. That is the traditional ethnic liturgy of the Europeans who came to America. It is our heritage, the way our forebearers offered the Mass. We don’t have to have it at every Mass, but we ought not be denied access to it altogether.

Awesome posting! Thank you for cranking the dialogue up a few notches. Postings like yours will hopefully make people reflect at a deeper level…

Your comments about the EF Mass are very appropriate. I would also suggest that a great many here need to acknowledge not only the European but especially the historical Anglo-Saxon influence on the celebration of the Mass here in the USA.

 

[boatbearer]

Like benedictgal said, the liturgical dance matter was addressed by Cardinal Arinze in a manner consistent with the Church’s own statement. I know Arinze’s statements were not officially binding and I never said they were - what I did imply was that his statements were accurate and important nonetheless.

You mean statements like this:

From the 1994 Instruction INCULTURATION AND THE ROMAN LITURGY,
Varietates Legitimae (the full document is at adoremus.org/doc_inculturation.html ):

“42. Among some peoples, singing is instinctively accompanied by handclapping, rhythmic swaying and dance movements on the part of the participants. Such forms of external expression can have a place in the liturgical actions of these peoples on condition that they are always the expression of true communal prayer of adoration, praise, offering and supplication, and not simply a performance.”

[edited]

Unless of course you believe the Church and modern civilization isn’t in crisis…? If you think everything is fine, then you are right and no one should complain about such novelties. If everything is not fine, everything that has changed since the “good old days” is suspect and needs to be critically examined.

I’m enough student of history and the Church to realize She has faced far worse in Her 2,000 years and that She’s not going anywhere thanks be to God. I am analytical enough to know that no one can precisely p(name removed by moderator)oint why the Church has suffered over the past decades yet it’s clear the slide began long before what some inaccurately refer to as “modernism.” Perhaps most of all I am enough of an observer to realize just how much my parish and diocese has improved in the last decade and I have enough hope and faith to know it’s happening throughout the Church.