Liturgical English: Developing an Orthodox Language Study Group

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"Liturgical English: Developing an Orthodox Language Study Group" being offered by the Sts. Cyril & Athanasius Institute for Orthodox Studies in San Francisco.

There are two Enrollment Types" a “Working Group” for those who are qualified which will meet in SF, and there are “Associate Participants [who will] interact chiefly on-line and may be located anywhere in the world”:

The “Study Group” consists of the Working Group and the Associates. There is no tuition for this. ($25.00 for supplies for the Working Group and $10 service fee for Associate Participants)

Schedule of Upcoming Meetings.

From that website:
The Liturgical English: Developing an Orthodox Language Study Group aims to engage in discussions surrounding the interest in developing a shared “Orthodox Liturgical English” that is suitable for divine worship and prayer, based in Orthodox customs and practices of translation and liturgical life. Physical meetings of the working group are held in San Francisco, while wider participation is enabled through a host of on-line resources dedicated to the Group’s work.
Topics addressed by this Study Group include:
The nature of Orthodox liturgical language. What is it? How is it distinct and different from other forms of a language.
Principles of liturgical translation and text.
The relationship of textual accuracy, poetry and liturgical usage.
Recent ventures in Orthodox English liturgical publications – most notably David James’s A Psalter for Prayer – and how such projects might fit into larger work on English-language Orthodox texts.
And other related items.
The conclusion of “A Welcome Message from Archimandrite Irenei”:
The purpose of this Study Group is to provide an avenue to explore what it might mean for an Orthodox liturgical English to be crafted. What might be its contours? What are the principles that it must maintain? How might such a project be approached? What pitfalls must it avoid? What would be the criteria of success?
The Institute’s Study Group will make no pretensions of giving a definitive answer to these questions, nor to being the avenue by which this want might be overcome; but we hope that it might be a venue to engage in some of these questions, to explore the nature of language in our life and prayer, and perhaps to engage a broader group of people in discussions that may further the cause
 
Sounds like it’ll be interesting. Too bad I’m all the way on the other side of the country. 😛

My only concern is that they seem to advocate “Elizabethan English.” Not really my cup of tea. Plus among the different national Churches there are different standards for translation. The Greek edition of the liturgy as used by the Greek Orthodox isn’t understandable to the modern Greek speaker. Among the Arabs they use a formal version of Arabic that is still understandable to those who speak modern Arabic. The Romanians actually use Romanian as commonly spoken, and they even have a commission to update translations in order to keep them “modern” but still accurate and poetic. I’m not sure, but I get the impression that the Ukrainians also use spoken Ukrainian in their liturgies as well.

I’m all for using a dignified and poetic translation of the Liturgy in modern English. Unfortunately such a translation has yet to surface. The closest I’ve seen has been Archbishop Raya’s translation in the BDW, and the Fordham translation used by the Russian Catholics. As far as the rest of the Liturgical texts are concerned, the Melkites still seem to have the best modern English version. The main drawback is that their texts are not metered to fit the automela (model hymns).
 
As far as the rest of the Liturgical texts are concerned, the Melkites still seem to have the best modern English version. The main drawback is that their texts are not metered to fit the automela (model hymns).
Having read the 2009 draft ad experimentum version a few times, I would agree - a very good translation, in modern English, yet still fairly poetic.

As for matching up English texts with melodic chant patterns first set again ancient root language, the Melkites are not alone in their challenge.

Even despite the closer similarities of modern Slavic languages to Old Church Slavonic, much has been written and noted about the challenges of adapting chant to the native modern vernacular languages used even in the “Old Country”.
 
My only concern is that they seem to advocate “Elizabethan English.” Not really my cup of tea.
Maybe not, but IMO it’s a sight better than dynamic equivalence pseudo-translations replete with ICEL-style inclusive language and such. I can deal with the stuffiness of the former but not loosey-goosey of the latter.
The Greek edition of the liturgy as used by the Greek Orthodox isn’t understandable to the modern Greek speaker.
Well yes, Koine is at a bit of distance from Modern Greek, but while it may sound stilted to the modern ear, it’s still not totally alien.
Among the Arabs they use a formal version of Arabic that is still understandable to those who speak modern Arabic.
It’s quite different from the spoken language – depending on the country, at least as much as Koine vs Modern Greek – but is understandable because what’s used in those texts is “Modern Standard Arabic” which is what newspapers are written in and what is used in public addresses. No one (except, perhaps, for some effete snobs whose lives hinge on showing off) speaks it in common parlance.
As far as the rest of the Liturgical texts are concerned, the Melkites still seem to have the best modern English version. The main drawback is that their texts are not metered to fit the automela (model hymns).
IMHO, that’s not all it’s cracked-up to be. For example, the neo-Maronite “translations” (of the 2005 Missal) are so metered and they are absolutely horrendous. In being slavish to the meter, the texts have become less a translation more a paraphrase re-write. Worse is that what was used as the basis for this (in fact as the basis for the whole thing, not only the metered parts) was not the Syriac text, but rather of the Arabic text which itself is a paraphrase of the original. Double the displeasure, double the “fun” I guess. :rolleyes:
 
I’m not sure, but I get the impression that the Ukrainians also use spoken Ukrainian in their liturgies as well.
Speaking of Ukrainians, they were showing the physical fighting going on among the Ukrainian politicians when the discussion of expanding the use of Russian in their courtrooms came about. I doubt if they would be open to any kind of English in courtrooms or anywhere else, unless it’s somewhere other than the Ukraine.
 
Sounds like it’ll be interesting. Too bad I’m all the way on the other side of the country. 😛
Associate Participants [who will] interact chiefly on-line and may be located anywhere in the world":
The “Study Group” consists of the Working Group and the Associates. There is no tuition for this. ($25.00 for supplies for the Working Group and $10 service fee for Associate Participants)
🙂
My only concern is that they seem to advocate “Elizabethan English.” Not really my cup of tea.
I didn’t hear that being advocated in the “Audio Lecture 1: An Introduction to the Principles of Liturgical Language” that is available on line to registrants, nor elsewhere.
I’m all for using a dignified and poetic translation of the Liturgy in modern English. Unfortunately such a translation has yet to surface.
I would gather this is the reason why they have decided to provide this Study Group. 🙂 I’m personally mainly interested as a professional interpreter. Also, as an ordinary orthodox Christian anytime one tries to unpack the language we use in our worship one gains a deeper awareness of what we are praying. 👍
 
Having read the 2009 draft ad experimentum version a few times, I would agree - a very good translation, in modern English, yet still fairly poetic.

As for matching up English texts with melodic chant patterns first set again ancient root language, the Melkites are not alone in their challenge.

Even despite the closer similarities of modern Slavic languages to Old Church Slavonic, much has been written and noted about the challenges of adapting chant to the native modern vernacular languages used even in the “Old Country”.
Actually, when comparing the 2009 draft “ad experimentum” and Archbishop Raya’s translation, I prefer Raya’s translation (as do a number of other Melkites). But the 2009 draft is essentially the Raya translation with revisions - some of the revisions were rather unfortunate.

There have been attempts to translate the Greek texts into English while maintaining the Byzantine automela. Some of those attempts have been rather successful, others not so much. The texts translated by Holy Transfiguration Monastery are all metered to match the automela, but they are in Elizabethan English (not necessarily bad) and from what I understand some of the translations are slightly problematic. Fr. Seraphim Dedes of St. Gregory Palamas Monastery has also done some translations into modern English from the original Greek while attempting to maintain the original Byzantine automela. His translations are kind of “iffy.” Some are rather poetic and very beautiful. Others just sound flat out wrong when read, spoken, or sung.

St. Anthony’s Greek Orthodox Monastery has been working on their “Divine Liturgies Music Project” which has attempted to write all new Byzantine music in English, but following all the proper rules of Byzantine music and notation. Their work is quite good, but again mostly in Elizabethan English. They simply use the translations provided by Holy Transfiguration Monastery (which is a non-canonical Orthodox monastery).
 
Critique of Final Draft of Melkite English Translation of the Divine Liturgy

Although written about the Melkite draft translation, this critique offered by a Melkite priest does make several points of general applicability to any effort to translate the DL into English vernacular language. Thus, it is shared given its relevance to the effort to be undertaken as reported in the OP.
Thanks for posting this link. I’ve read through Father’s thoughts several times in the past and couldn’t agree with him more. You’ve inspired me to read through it again for some fresh insights. 👍
 
Maybe not, but IMO it’s a sight better than dynamic equivalence pseudo-translations replete with ICEL-style inclusive language and such. I can deal with the stuffiness of the former but not loosey-goosey of the latter.

Well yes, Koine is at a bit of distance from Modern Greek, but while it may sound stilted to the modern ear, it’s still not totally alien.

It’s quite different from the spoken language – depending on the country, at least as much as Koine vs Modern Greek – but is understandable because what’s used in those texts is “Modern Standard Arabic” which is what newspapers are written in and what is used in public addresses. No one (except, perhaps, for some effete snobs whose lives hinge on showing off) speaks it in common parlance.

IMHO, that’s not all it’s cracked-up to be. For example, the neo-Maronite “translations” (of the 2005 Missal) are so metered and they are absolutely horrendous. In being slavish to the meter, the texts have become less a translation more a paraphrase re-write. Worse is that what was used as the basis for this (in fact as the basis for the whole thing, not only the metered parts) was not the Syriac text, but rather of the Arabic text which itself is a paraphrase of the original. Double the displeasure, double the “fun” I guess. :rolleyes:
I agree about Elizabethan English being better than any pseudo-translation, so long as it is itself a good translation as well. It is possible for a translation to be in Elizabethan English and still be a bad translation. Personally I think dynamic-equivalence does play a role in translations, simply because translating everything literally doesn’t always work. But when dynamic equivalence becomes little more than paraphrasing, that’s when problems start to set in.

As far as metered hymns are concerned, I completely agree that problems do arise when one strives to follow the meter exactly. The biggest problems I’ve seen in the Byzantine tradition of chant have been awkward translations that are sometimes either slavishly literal to the point of not accurately conveying the message of the original text, or bad paraphrases that fall into the same problem of literal word-for-word translations (i.e. not accurately conveying the intent of the original).

The current Melkite English translation is actually a translation of the Arabic instead of the Greek. I believe reference may have been made back to the Greek text so that the English translation would conform to that text where the Arabic may deviate from it, but overall the translation was done from the Arabic. So it’s really a translation of a translation. That’s just for the Divine Liturgy. For the Sacraments book known as the “Euchologion” the translation was from the original standard Greek text in the archives in Rome. As to the other texts, I’ve not heard for sure what source they relied on for their translations. I’ve heard rumors that they were translated from the French, which again would make them a translation of a translation. But I suspect that may not be true for two reasons. First, they make extensive use of the translations done by Archbishop Raya and Baron Jose de Vinck. Those translations were done from the original Greek. Secondly the Greek Orthodox themselves hold the Melkite translations in very high esteem, and I’ve heard that a number of both Greek and Antiochian Orthodox parishes use the Melkite books in their services.
 
🙂

I didn’t hear that being advocated in the “Audio Lecture 1: An Introduction to the Principles of Liturgical Language” that is available on line to registrants, nor elsewhere.

I would gather this is the reason why they have decided to provide this Study Group. 🙂 I’m personally mainly interested as a professional interpreter. Also, as an ordinary orthodox Christian anytime one tries to unpack the language we use in our worship one gains a deeper awareness of what we are praying. 👍
As far as advocating Elizabethan English, I’m basing that judgment off of their recommended Psalter. I listened once to a program on Ancient Faith Radio where the gentleman was very adamant about Elizabethan English as being the only form of English proper for the Divine Liturgy. He recommended the same Psalter. Perhaps I am projecting my reaction to him onto this Study Group though. 😛

I didn’t know you were an interpreter! That’s cool. 👍

You are right though, the more translations we look at the deeper becomes our awareness of what it is we are praying. My parish actually uses a number of different translations, some Elizabethan others modern. A gentleman in the parish likes this because it opens up to us many senses of the texts that may not be conveyed by just a single translation.
 
Actually, when comparing the 2009 draft “ad experimentum” and Archbishop Raya’s translation, I prefer Raya’s translation (as do a number of other Melkites).
As do I, and will never part with my BDW and Byzantine Book of Prayer 😃

And of course, to be honest, my basis of comparison is inherently to the translation employed by my own particular Church, and we need not go into that here once again …
 
As do I, and will never part with my BDW and Byzantine Book of Prayer 😃

And of course, to be honest, my basis of comparison is inherently to the translation employed by my own particular Church, and we need not go into that here once again …
:rotfl:

I just reread the post from Byzantine Ramblings. Quite excellent. 👍 It’s kind of sad to think that the various corrections/revisions he suggested could’ve been made simply by revising the Raya-de Vinck translation slightly. But in all honesty, I wonder how much impact the new translation has really had on the Melkites throughout the U.S. and other English speaking countries. My own parish still uses the Raya-de Vinck translation, substituting “for ever and ever” with “unto ages of ages” and sometimes throwing in a few “thees” and “thous.” Otherwise we’ve been completely unaffected by the new translation.

What bothers me most is that no one has really seemed to put the effort into making a truly excellent translation into modern English. The Melkite translations are good, but could certainly be improved upon. Most folks seem caught up in the hype to produce an excellent translation in Elizabethan English. I suspect this has to do primarily with the influence of Protestant converts to Orthodoxy along with the general Protestant roots of the U.S. and the desire to maintain some connection between our liturgical worship and the “feel” of the King James Bible.
 
As far as advocating Elizabethan English, I’m basing that judgment off of their recommended Psalter. I listened once to a program on Ancient Faith Radio where the gentleman was very adamant about Elizabethan English as being the only form of English proper for the Divine Liturgy. He recommended the same Psalter. Perhaps I am projecting my reaction to him onto this Study Group though. 😛
Ah, now I comprehend. 😃
Within the sections that are available to those who are registered is a section “Older English editions of the Scriptures”
Numerous English versions of the Scriptures exist, including numerous versions translated or edited by Orthodox soures. These prove invaluable tools in comparison and in observing different translation methods and approaches.
[Bolding there is mine.] This includes links to three Psalters and three full Bibles-- the KJV, Douey-Rheims Version, and “The Holy Orthodox Bible, as translated by Peter Papoutsis - an example of translation that goes awry.” , plus a link to a discussion and critique of that project on Monachos.net . In the “Comments” someone also added links to Holy Transfiguration Monastery’s The Psalter According to the Seventy, and to translations of William Tyndale and John Wycliffe.

It’s true the links aren’t to any published contemporary translations of scripture.
I didn’t know you were an interpreter! That’s cool. 👍
I keep saying that I’m getting too old to do simultaneous work-- my brain just doesn’t move that fast anymore… tho somehow I do still manage to do jobs here and there. Being a fly on the wall in every kind of situation is definitely interesting and has exposed me to so many things I would never have been part of otherwise. 🙂
You are right though, the more translations we look at the deeper becomes our awareness of what it is we are praying. My parish actually uses a number of different translations, some Elizabethan others modern. A gentleman in the parish likes this because it opens up to us many senses of the texts that may not be conveyed by just a single translation.
I hope they manage to pull this Study Group off because I am very interested in it. I’m less than fully confident because I emailed them twice in the past month and neither email received any sort of reply, tho my paid enrollment got a quick response. I emailed again last night, not wanting to be pushy, but I very much need a reply to the couple of questions I have about the proposed schedule.
 
:rotfl:

What bothers me most is that no one has really seemed to put the effort into making a truly excellent translation into modern English. The Melkite translations are good, but could certainly be improved upon. Most folks seem caught up in the hype to produce an excellent translation in Elizabethan English. I suspect this has to do primarily with the influence of Protestant converts to Orthodoxy along with the general Protestant roots of the U.S. and the desire to maintain some connection between our liturgical worship and the “feel” of the King James Bible.
Phillip,

I don’t know where this idea that a preference for Elizabethan English is due to a Protestant influence comes from, nor is this the first time I have heard such an opinion expressed by advocates for the use of contemporary English in liturgical worship. But such folk among Catholics must be too young to have memories of the pre-Vatican II Catholic Church, where all the Mass missals for the laity had English translations in “Elizabethan” English (or ‘Early Modern English’, as I prefer to think of it) facing the Latin text. Not to mention the prayers I learned for my First Communion: “Our Father, who ART in heaven…”, “Hail, Mary, the Lord is with THEE…” or the Act of Contrition: “O my God, I am HEARTILY sorry for having offended THEE…” And while the King James Bible is certainly superior as a translation, the Douay-Rheims Bible that I grew up on is also certainly in “Elizabethan” English (though I imagine the original translators are probably rolling over in their graves to have their English thus characterized).

Be that as it may, there are a few reasons why a number of (mostly Orthodox) translators have chosen to work in Early Modern, rather than in contemporary English, other than nostalgia, aesthetic preference, or simply the practical goal of not having one’s work clash with the body of liturgical literature already in use in one’s particular (Orthodox) jurisdiction or (Catholic) rite, which I will attempt to enumerate in no particular order:
  • Early Modern English is more static than contemporary English, which is constantly evolving. A text that is in good, even elegant, modern English will eventually become dated or “stuffy” in its turn. If one has as a principle that worship must be in the contemporary vernacular, then one will be obliged to update the texts periodically. Such changes are always disconcerting for many - witness the Old Believer schism in Russia, or just ask my octogenarian parents what they think of the latest changes in the English translation of the Roman Mass!
  • The presence of distinct personal pronouns and verb forms for the singular and plural make it easier to make accurate translations of many texts
  • All of the original texts one might use for reference as a translator are in an archaic language (Septuagint or Byzantine Greek, Latin, Church Slavonic, Coptic, Ge’ez, Syriac - you name it). One might argue, therefore, that it is more faithful to the ‘register’ of the language one is translating from to use a similar register for the language one is translating into.
  • (this is more subjective - but powerful for me and, perhaps, others) There is a certain, je ne sais quoi - comfort, perhaps - in knowing that the Greek of the Akathistos Hymn or the Great Canon of St. Andrew of Crete is the same language that has been heard since the 7th century or 8th century, respectively, or that the Latin of St. Jerome’s psalms are the same words that were cherished by innumerable saints, etc., etc.
  • There is also what I would call the ‘iconic’ factor (this relates, perhaps to the second point). In liturgical music and, especially, in iconography, we don’t use modern forms, but, rather, adhere to strict rules that are designed to express the transfigured nature of the redeemed world. Should not the same be true with liturgical language? By using an archaic form of a language for the liturgy, isn’t a translator only using an analagous technique to that of an iconographer?
  • Some argue that modern language should be used for evangelical or didactic reasons. However, in the early Church, converts were not allowed to even to attend the Divine Liturgy until after they had been made catechumens, and still had to leave before the Canon started. So, today, catechesis is the problem, not unintelligible translations. A practicing Christian should know the structure and content of the services. When one hears the Scriptures read in Church, the reading should already be familiar enough that it mainly serves to evoke the memory of a text with which one is already well-acquainted. It’s disingenuous for a Christian native speaker of English to be blaming the King James translation of the Bible for having no idea of what is being said, when it is one of the glories of the language, because, after all, one can read any translation of the Bible one prefers at home. The liturgy has many roles, but Sunday School is not one of them.
Well, those are my thoughts, and I’ll be interested to see the responses.

David James
 
Phillip,

I don’t know where this idea that a preference for Elizabethan English is due to a Protestant influence comes from, nor is this the first time I have heard such an opinion expressed by advocates for the use of contemporary English in liturgical worship. But such folk among Catholics must be too young to have memories of the pre-Vatican II Catholic Church, where all the Mass missals for the laity had English translations in “Elizabethan” English (or ‘Early Modern English’, as I prefer to think of it) facing the Latin text. Not to mention the prayers I learned for my First Communion: “Our Father, who ART in heaven…”, “Hail, Mary, the Lord is with THEE…” or the Act of Contrition: “O my God, I am HEARTILY sorry for having offended THEE…” And while the King James Bible is certainly superior as a translation, the Douay-Rheims Bible that I grew up on is also certainly in “Elizabethan” English (though I imagine the original translators are probably rolling over in their graves to have their English thus characterized).

Be that as it may, there are a few reasons why a number of (mostly Orthodox) translators have chosen to work in Early Modern, rather than in contemporary English, other than nostalgia, aesthetic preference, or simply the practical goal of not having one’s work clash with the body of liturgical literature already in use in one’s particular (Orthodox) jurisdiction or (Catholic) rite, which I will attempt to enumerate in no particular order:
  • Early Modern English is more static than contemporary English, which is constantly evolving. A text that is in good, even elegant, modern English will eventually become dated or “stuffy” in its turn. If one has as a principle that worship must be in the contemporary vernacular, then one will be obliged to update the texts periodically. Such changes are always disconcerting for many - witness the Old Believer schism in Russia, or just ask my octogenarian parents what they think of the latest changes in the English translation of the Roman Mass!
  • The presence of distinct personal pronouns and verb forms for the singular and plural make it easier to make accurate translations of many texts
  • All of the original texts one might use for reference as a translator are in an archaic language (Septuagint or Byzantine Greek, Latin, Church Slavonic, Coptic, Ge’ez, Syriac - you name it). One might argue, therefore, that it is more faithful to the ‘register’ of the language one is translating from to use a similar register for the language one is translating into.
  • (this is more subjective - but powerful for me and, perhaps, others) There is a certain, je ne sais quoi - comfort, perhaps - in knowing that the Greek of the Akathistos Hymn or the Great Canon of St. Andrew of Crete is the same language that has been heard since the 7th century or 8th century, respectively, or that the Latin of St. Jerome’s psalms are the same words that were cherished by innumerable saints, etc., etc.
  • There is also what I would call the ‘iconic’ factor (this relates, perhaps to the second point). In liturgical music and, especially, in iconography, we don’t use modern forms, but, rather, adhere to strict rules that are designed to express the transfigured nature of the redeemed world. Should not the same be true with liturgical language? By using an archaic form of a language for the liturgy, isn’t a translator only using an analagous technique to that of an iconographer?
  • Some argue that modern language should be used for evangelical or didactic reasons. However, in the early Church, converts were not allowed to even to attend the Divine Liturgy until after they had been made catechumens, and still had to leave before the Canon started. So, today, catechesis is the problem, not unintelligible translations. A practicing Christian should know the structure and content of the services. When one hears the Scriptures read in Church, the reading should already be familiar enough that it mainly serves to evoke the memory of a text with which one is already well-acquainted. It’s disingenuous for a Christian native speaker of English to be blaming the King James translation of the Bible for having no idea of what is being said, when it is one of the glories of the language, because, after all, one can read any translation of the Bible one prefers at home. The liturgy has many roles, but Sunday School is not one of them.
Well, those are my thoughts, and I’ll be interested to see the responses.

David James
Hi Mr. David James 👋

I should mention that the whole connection between a preference for “Elizabethan” English and Protestant converts is really just a hunch on my part. But this hunch is based primarily on my experience that it seems to be mainly Protestant converts who advocate it; at least they are the primary ones that I’ve heard advocating for it.

It’s also not true that the pre-Vatican II missals all had Elizabethan English translations. I’ve owned several pre-Vatican II missals (that were actually published prior to Vatican II), along with a Catechism from the late 19th Century, all had the translation of the Mass in what we would define as “modern English.”

The first consideration that early modern English is more static doesn’t really make much sense to me. Why should early modern English be taken as the standard as opposed to today’s English? Why not just freeze the liturgical language at today’s English and be done with it? I have heard of Orthodox jurisdiction that actually do have commissions set up to update translations from time to time as necessary. The thing that I respect about these commissions is that they are mandated to remain faithful to the original text, while at the same time translating it into a modern usage of whatever language (in this case Romanian) and maintaing a strong sense of the poetic. It seems to me that the only reason the Orthodox and Eastern Catholics cannot also do this is that the jurisdictions are so divided that they’d never be able to agree even on what text ought to be considered the standard, let alone how to translate that text.

I’m not sure I understand the point of the second consideration. Would you mind elaborating?

With regards to the third, I believe that it needs to be remembered that those archaic texts were at one time the spoken languages (perhaps with the exception of Church Slavonic). Fr. Robert Taft, S.J. made a point in a talk that he gave to mention that the Latin used in the Catholic Church was actually the “vulgar” use of Latin in the Patristic age. It was the spoken language. The Church opted to use this form of Latin, despite the fact that a formal Latin did exist at the time. This was because it was recognized that the Liturgy would be a primary source for catechesis and evangelization. It would merit further study on my part to see if this was also true of the Greek, Coptic, Ge’ez, etc. speaking Churches at the time.

The next consideration is, as you mention, subjective. I certainly won’t argue against a subjective consideration. Some people prefer modern English, some “early modern” as you call it, others Greek, others Latin, others… ad infinitum. I’m primarily concerned with what the Church has to say. So far among the Eastern Catholics in the U.S. all of our jurisdictions have produced official liturgical texts in modern English alone (with greater or lesser success depending on the jurisdiction). The Orthodox jurisdiction have all produced numerous texts in either early modern or modern English, again with greater or lesser success (depending here not so much on the jurisdiction, but on the translator). In my (admittedly limited) experience the Greeks and the OCA seem to prefer modern English on the whole. I believe ACROD also uses modern English, but I’d have to double check that one. I don’t know about the other jurisdictions.

I like your argument that translation is essentially “iconic” in nature. I will point out, however, that there is iconography out there that is very contemporary, while at the same time being 100% faithful to the rule and ancient practice of iconography. I’ll say more about that in another post.

For now, these are just my immediate gut-reactions to what you presented. I don’t mean to be offensive, if I have been. I’m just trying to make a few humble observations as well. 😃
 
On the “iconic” nature of translation I would like to present some of my own thoughts for critique. First, there are many forms of iconography even within the Byzantine tradition, not to mention the Coptic, Ethiopian, Ge’ez, Latin, and other traditions as well. Within the Byzantine tradition there are Greek, Romanian, Russian, Ukrainian, Carpatho-Russyn, and Arabic/Melkite styles of iconography to name but a few. I don’t mean here to use this as an argument in favor of a multiplicity of translations, but I suppose one could make such an argument if one were so inclined.

The observation I’d like to focus on is an emerging “contemporary” iconography that is 100% faithful to the tradition if iconography as it has come down to us. Perhaps it would be better to replace “contemporary” with “American” because my own experience has been limited to the U.S. But if one enters the OCA Cathedral of St. Nicholas here in Washington D.C., one will see a stunning example of this iconography. It is truly breathtaking.

With this in mind I would ask: is it possible to produce equally breathtaking translations of our Liturgical Services into contemporary English? It is quite obvious that it is possible to do so into what our brother, David James, has coined “early modern English” (a phrase I like much better than Elizabethan English). Translations like those produced by Holy Transfiguration Monastery, Jordanville, et al have rightfully gained a great deal of acceptance and respect among both Orthodox and Eastern Catholics alike. But with few exceptions this doesn’t seem to be the case for translations into modern English.

The reasons I’ve encountered for this (and there may be more) are that the translations are often made by non-native English speakers who are not familiar enough with the English language to convey any amount of real nuance into their translations. Likewise translations are also made either too literal or too paraphrased. The poetry of the original text is also often glossed over or completely ignored.

That brings me to another point. Our Liturgies are, essentially, poetic in nature. The beauty of the poetry is, more often than not, lost not by the very nature of translation itself, but simply because of poor translation work. The loss of poetry, in many translations, is also often the result of a committee of translators, where translation itself was voted on. Committees hardly ever produce works of art - and the Liturgy is nothing if not a work of art.

So the problem as I see it is that any translation, whether it be into early modern or modern/contemporary English, must be both faithful to the original as well as beautiful and poetic. In order for that to happen the translator(s) must be familiar with not only the grammar, vocabulary, etc. of the original language, but also with the ideals of poetry and nuance in the original language. Not only that, but the translator(s) would also have to be equally familiar with the ideals of poetry and nuance of English (or whatever language they are translating into). Necessarily they must also be men or women of deep and intense prayer, not just hired hands. Just as no one would dream of hiring an iconographer who wasn’t a person of deep prayer and personal piety, so too we ought not to hire translators who aren’t also deeply prayerful and pious. I think this is one of the reasons that such translations as those produced by Archbishop Raya or Holy Transfiguration Monastery seem to persist as “gold standards.” When one reads through the texts one can see, even through the flaws in translation, that these texts are the work of a great deal of prayer. 👍

Okay. Enough from me.
 
Hi Mr. David James 👋

It’s also not true that the pre-Vatican II missals all had Elizabethan English translations. I’ve owned several pre-Vatican II missals (that were actually published prior to Vatican II), along with a Catechism from the late 19th Century, all had the translation of the Mass in what we would define as “modern English.”

😃
I am sure there may have been some pre-Vatican II missals with English translations in the modern idiom (i.e., dispensing with the traditional 2nd person singular verb forms), but certainly not all. My St. Joseph’s Missal has “And with THY spirit” as the response to “The Lord be with you”, for example.
Hi Mr. David James 👋

The first consideration that early modern English is more static doesn’t really make much sense to me. Why should early modern English be taken as the standard as opposed to today’s English? Why not just freeze the liturgical language at today’s English and be done with it?

😃
Yes, in principle, one could certainly “freeze” today’s English as the standard for liturgical English. The main argument against doing so is the tremendous volume of English liturgical literature that already exists, for the western rite, in particular, that is at least as accurate as any of the modern translations AND includes some of the chief monuments of the English language, such as the Coverdale psalms and the King James Bible, to mention only the two most prominent.
Hi Mr. David James 👋

I’m not sure I understand the point of the second consideration. Would you mind elaborating?

😃
I mean that, for example, “Et cum spiritu tuo” is more accurately translated by “And with thy [2nd person singular] spirit”, than by “and with your [2nd person plural] spirit.”
Hi Mr. David James 👋

With regards to the third, I believe that it needs to be remembered that those archaic texts were at one time the spoken languages (perhaps with the exception of Church Slavonic). Fr. Robert Taft, S.J. made a point in a talk that he gave to mention that the Latin used in the Catholic Church was actually the “vulgar” use of Latin in the Patristic age. It was the spoken language. The Church opted to use this form of Latin, despite the fact that a formal Latin did exist at the time. This was because it was recognized that the Liturgy would be a primary source for catechesis and evangelization. It would merit further study on my part to see if this was also true of the Greek, Coptic, Ge’ez, etc. speaking Churches at the time.

😃
I am not familiar with that particular argument by Dr. Taft, but by “vulgar” I doubt he meant “street Latin”. The Greek and Latin of the liturgy is fairly elevated in tone, and probably was as difficult, or more, for ordinary Latin and Greek speakers of the 4th or 5th century to understand as early modern English is for an uneducated modern speaker of English.

Yes, I agree, the traditional vs. modern English discussion seems to go on ad infinitum. Obviously, I have opted in favor of ‘early modern’ English for all the reasons that we have been discussing, but there is one last point I would like to make, and that is that the Romanian model of continuous updates is unlikely to obtain for Orthodox English liturgical texts. It is not even certain that it will persist in Romania. That means that today’s contemporary English translations are inevitably destined to become virtually as outdated - as ‘hard to understand’ - as their modern English counterparts, and we will be back where we started, but the poorer for it. And the reason for that is, that early modern English is only inaccessible if one is completely unacquainted with it. With the frequent exposure that comes from daily use it becomes at least as understandable as Latin or Greek was to any 5th century Christian. If we dump the King James and the Coverdale now, to opt for contemporary English, then, when the inevitable time comes that that translation, too, becomes outdated, what English liturgical texts will we have left that are universally acknowledged to be great literature? Will we not be even more impoverished than when we started?

David
 
Yes, in principle, one could certainly “freeze” today’s English as the standard for liturgical English. The main argument against doing so is the tremendous volume of English liturgical literature that already exists, for the western rite, in particular, that is at least as accurate as any of the modern translations AND includes some of the chief monuments of the English language, such as the Coverdale psalms and the King James Bible, to mention only the two most prominent.
I would agree with much of this. Every era wants their own English. In reality, there is no ideal period whose English can really be ever used as a standard, though in some cases certain phrases are so ingrained they are used though very few know their original meanings. For example, “Don we now our gay apparel,” etc. We like the way it sounds maybe, but we could just as easily use French.

Not to mention even today’s English varies among the English-speaking countries and dialects.

On the bright side, “alleluia” and “amen” are still used in most vernaculars with almost the same meaning. Okay, maybe “Fah-lah-lah-lah-lah, lah-lah-lah-lah” too. 🙂
 
We met for the second time last night. Both sessions have been quite interesting. The first on line session is next Thursday. It’s still possible to join in the group on line from anywhere.

Ugh… in updating their website, which happened in the past 24 hours, those links no longer work.

Try these:
Group Overview

Enrollment Information

Interacting live: both in person and in an on-line roundtable
"Liturgical English: Developing an Orthodox Language Study Group" being offered by the Sts. Cyril & Athanasius Institute for Orthodox Studies in San Francisco.

There are two Enrollment Types" a “Working Group” for those who are qualified which will meet in SF, and there are “Associate Participants [who will] interact chiefly on-line and may be located anywhere in the world”:

The “Study Group” consists of the Working Group and the Associates. There is no tuition for this. ($25.00 for supplies for the Working Group and $10 service fee for Associate Participants)

Schedule of Upcoming Meetings.

From that website:
The Liturgical English: Developing an Orthodox Language Study Group aims to engage in discussions surrounding the interest in developing a shared “Orthodox Liturgical English” that is suitable for divine worship and prayer, based in Orthodox customs and practices of translation and liturgical life. Physical meetings of the working group are held in San Francisco, while wider participation is enabled through a host of on-line resources dedicated to the Group’s work.
 
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