Liturgical hand gestures

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dancny

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last Sunday I went to our 5 pm mass and the choir leader wanted the parishoners to use Liturgical hand gestures during the responsorial psalm. This bugged me so much that I was distrubed for the rest of the mass.

It amounted to a certain amount of waving during the response. While it was rather pretty in some ways I just didn’t find it appropriate. is it licit, legal or whatever the correct term is?
 
Licit? I don’t see how it could be.

Silly, awkward, annoying, laughable? I don’t see how it could *not *be.

Sorry you had to put up with it. God always gives us plenty of opportunities to “offer things up.” Anyway, a choir director can’t tell the congregation to do anything that is outside of the approved liturgical books.

Dan
 
Thanks for your answer.

I have some really great priests here and I hope that the Pastor told them, “Cute, don’t do it anymore.” But I am wondering if I have a leg to stand on if I voice my feelings. If it is allowed I’ll shut up. If it isn’t I will send one small, polite, respectful email.
 
One of our psalms has signing with it. (Wedo have signing at one of the Masses) I consider it another language—If I know it, I will respond along with others. I feel it is participating.

I can see how it is distracting, but please try not to let it take from your Mass. Some music ministers are over enthusiastic, but they really can’t force you to do anything. I try to avoid Masses that are more liberal in style.

Lux
 
dancny said:
last Sunday I went to our 5 pm mass and the choir leader wanted the parishoners to use Liturgical hand gestures during the responsorial psalm. This bugged me so much that I was distrubed for the rest of the mass.

It amounted to a certain amount of waving during the response. While it was rather pretty in some ways I just didn’t find it appropriate. is it licit, legal or whatever the correct term is?
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These do not belong in the Mass. It’s almost akin to doing the wave. It may work at a rock concert or during a Spurs game, but, not during the Mass. This is just what happens when well-meaning people start introducing their own personal idiosyncracies into the Mass. It does nothing but confuse the people and leave a bad taste in the mouth.
 
The General Instruction of the Roman Missal has in n. 43:
“With a view to a uniformity in gestures and postures during one and the same celebration, the faithful should follow the directions which the deacon, lay minister, or priest gives according to whatever is indicated in the Missal.”
(My bold text.)

A part of it is “according to whatever is indicated in the Missal”. I would see this as only allowing direction on gestures according to what the Roman Missal has.

But it also has a “do as directed” tone about it.
 
John_Lilburne said:
The General Instruction of the Roman Missal has in n. 43:
“With a view to a uniformity in gestures and postures during one and the same celebration, the faithful should follow the directions which the deacon, lay minister, or priest gives according to whatever is indicated in the Missal.”
(My bold text.)

A part of it is “according to whatever is indicated in the Missal”. I would see this as only allowing direction on gestures according to what the Roman Missal has.

But it also has a “do as directed” tone about it.
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However, as you stated in the middle of your paragraph, only those gestrues called for in the Roman Missal are allowed. Doing as directed, in the case of what the OP described. would probably (and, more than likely not) apply here.

I have seen this done at my dad’s former parish. The pastor, who is supposed to have an STD in liturgy from a Roman university (and, who served as our first diocesan director of divine worship), had the kids doing a little wave during the responsorial psalm (which wasn’t even a psalm, it was a kiddie song he had in lieu of the psalm) during the regular Sunday Mass. Even the adults were doing it. He told me that he did it to get the kids to participate. I told him that was the wrong approach to take.
 
Since a number of parishes I’ve seen have their Lifeteen Mass at about 5:00pm on Sundays, I’m wondering if this was one, in which case the range of licit variations are different than normal (and I don’t know what those variations are). Sounds like nothing I’ve experienced (Praise be!), unless it was sign-language. Sounds like what they had us do at school camp, around the campfire.:eek:
 
brigid12 said:
Since a number of parishes I’ve seen have their Lifeteen Mass at about 5:00pm on Sundays, I’m wondering if this was one, in which case the range of licit variations are different than normal (and I don’t know what those variations are). Sounds like nothing I’ve experienced (Praise be!), unless it was sign-language. Sounds like what they had us do at school camp, around the campfire.:eek:
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Bridig,
There are no licit variations allowed for Lifeteen. That’s one of the biggest problems with the program, the fact that people think that LT or some other organization or movement has some kind of license to make their own variations to the Mass. Every Mass must follow the words and gestures approved by Rome–there are no exceptions to this. I’m not saying that you yourself subscribe to these, but merely making the point that variations in the Mass which are experienced in these movements are not in any way legitimate.
 
FrDavid96 said:
Bridig,
There are no licit variations allowed for Lifeteen. That’s one of the biggest problems with the program, the fact that people think that LT or some other organization or movement has some kind of license to make their own variations to the Mass. Every Mass must follow the words and gestures approved by Rome–there are no exceptions to this. I’m not saying that you yourself subscribe to these, but merely making the point that variations in the Mass which are experienced in these movements are not in any way legitimate.
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That’s a hopeful sign! Thanks.
 
It wasn’t any kind of lifeteen mass. It was our usual Sunday evening mass. It wasn’t sign language either. I forget the actual psalm but they were simply billed as Liturgical gestures. We have aq good set of priests here but I wold hate to think that something like this is going to creep up. I just didn’t want to complain if it was licit.
 
the choir leader wanted the parishoners to use Liturgical hand gestures during the responsorial psalm.

**What on earth could these be (barring using Ameslan)?

The only liturgical gesture the people use is the Sign of the Cross, and possibly the orans posture.**
 
I am dying to find out what “liturgical gestures” your music director has dreamed up, and wonder what he was smoking when he came up with this. Hope you took a video.
 
puzzleannie said:
I am dying to find out what “liturgical gestures” your music director has dreamed up, and wonder what he was smoking when he came up with this. Hope you took a video.
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I am curious, too. If it is anything like what my dad’s former pastor does, it probably looks as though the faithful have their hands up in the air and their waving them, almost like, I hate to say, the hokey pokey. That is what it looks like when the pastor does it. I told him that this was wrong, but, he told me that he needed to get the kids engaged. Mind you, this was a Sunday Mass and there were only about 10 kids in the front row and maybe another 10 scattered all over the church. Most of the faithful were adults.
 
For the last year or so, I’ve noticed a lot of silly hand gesturing going on at Mass. When the priest says “The Lord be with You”, there are more than a few people holding their hand out like they are giving a dog a biscuit when they reply “And also with you”!

Of late, this and other bodily acrobatics like hand holding, people swaying like a bunch of trees in a windstorm during the “singing” of the Our Father and other silliness seems to be on the rise.

Can’t people just fold their hands and bow their heads, or fix their gaze on the crucifix instead of turning the whole Mass into a celebration of “look at me” insanity?

The Mass is where Our Lord Jesus is suffering and dying on the cross before our very eyes in redemption for our sins, to save our souls that deserve only one thing… punishment in the fires of Hell. Being present during the suffering and death of Our Lord should be cause for a more subdued and reverent atmosphere.

Even convicted murderers are given the dignity of a subdued silence as they face their execution.

:cool:
 
If you spend too much time worrying about what those around you are doing during Mass, you’ll end up forgetting why you’re there in the first place.
 
TLM08 said:
For the last year or so, I’ve noticed a lot of silly hand gesturing going on at Mass. When the priest says “The Lord be with You”, there are more than a few people holding their hand out like they are giving a dog a biscuit when they reply “And also with you”!

Of late, this and other bodily acrobatics like hand holding, people swaying like a bunch of trees in a windstorm during the “singing” of the Our Father and other silliness seems to be on the rise.

Can’t people just fold their hands and bow their heads, or fix their gaze on the crucifix instead of turning the whole Mass into a celebration of “look at me” insanity?

The Mass is where Our Lord Jesus is suffering and dying on the cross before our very eyes in redemption for our sins, to save our souls that deserve only one thing… punishment in the fires of Hell. Being present during the suffering and death of Our Lord should be cause for a more subdued and reverent atmosphere.

Even convicted murderers are given the dignity of a subdued silence as they face their execution.

:cool:
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Please!! Not another thread on this subject. If you do a search you will see there are dozens of threads already on this. Why don’t you just go into one of them if after reading the comments you are still not happy.
 
TLM08 said:
Of late, this and other bodily acrobatics like hand holding, people swaying like a bunch of trees in a windstorm during the “singing” of the Our Father and other silliness seems to be on the rise.
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these parishioners were undoubtedly instructed by a pastor at some point and are dutifully obeying, not their fault if the pastor has not read or disregards the GIRM. people don’t make up this stuff on their own, they just do as they are told

we had such a pastor here about 25 years ago (judging by the age group that still does aerobics at Mass) and simply because they are such good, active Catholics, a lot of people think they must know what to do, so they follow along.
 
We worship as a community do we not?

I once attended a parish where no one held hands and during the entire Mass, they just kept their hands folded ( was a brand new Catholic, so I was looking around to learn what I needed to do). Rarely was their any expression on their faces. I made a mental note Never to attend that parish again.

I raise my hands (though not over my head), I sway to the hymns and hold hands during the Our Father, I gesture towards father when he says Peace Be With You as I want him to know that I also wish him peace. I pray the Mass in a true community of believers and receive my Lord in the Blessed Sacrament with reverence and awe and love.

But if this form of Community Worship bothers you, then please don’t look around and notice what others are doing.
 
love4mary said:
We worship as a community do we not?

I once attended a parish where no one held hands and during the entire Mass, they just kept their hands folded ( was a brand new Catholic, so I was looking around to learn what I needed to do). Rarely was their any expression on their faces. I made a mental note Never to attend that parish again.

I raise my hands (though not over my head), I sway to the hymns and hold hands during the Our Father, I gesture towards father when he says Peace Be With You as I want him to know that I also wish him peace. I pray the Mass in a true community of believers and receive my Lord in the Blessed Sacrament with reverence and awe and love.

But if this form of Community Worship bothers you, then please don’t look around and notice what others are doing.
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Inasmuch as we worship as a community, that fact is already displayed when we come together for Mass. No further manifestation of that is needed. When we over-emphasize the community aspect, we make the horizontal aspect of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass more important than the vertical.

Look at the arms of the cross. The vertical arm of the cross is much longer than the horizontal one. The vertical dimension ponts towards the Triune God whom we come to worship. The horizontal dimension is the community itself. When we make gestures of the community more important, then, we have lost the point of the Mass. We fail to take into account that the veil between heaven and earth is lifted and we come into contact with the divine presence of God.
 
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