Liturgical Innovations

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Panis_Angelicas

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The liturgical innovations I’m thinking of include: body swaying; arm raising; hand waiving; spontaneous outbursts of acclamations, prayers, or songs, liturgical dancing…

Are these approved gestures, or are they not?

*Is it ok to interject them into the Mass at will? Why or why not? *

Aren’t there only two approved forms of the Mass ~ the Novus Ordo, and the Traditional Latin Mass? What is a “Charismatic-style Mass, then?”
 
Panis,

Looking at your list I would say that as long as we are speaking of North America and Europe these actions are not considered a part of our worship traditions. Thus, they may not be introduced by the priest except in those placed where the rubrics direct the raising of the arms, etc. The rubrics do not, in general, pertain the laity who may or may not make spontaneous gestures (I’m thinking specifically of raising the arms or of the body swaying in time to the music).

However, in those cultures where dance is a part of their worship tradition the Church does permit a type of liturgical dance (more specifically, “rhythmic movement”). Note that more of the directives against liturgical dance have come in response to questions from the United States where dance is a part of our secular culture and not a part of our worship. Thus is not true for Africa, certain parts of South America and the pan-Pacific region. There the directives that allow for enculturation have permitted the incorporation of some limited dance (as well as the use of drums and other percussion instruments at Mass).

A “Charismatic Mass” is simply a Mass of Paul VI done with a congregation that purports to have the “gifts of the Spirit” and which tend to be a little “looser” in terms of how the congregation responds.

Deacon Ed
 
Understanding that Catholic Charismatic Renewal is something that has found favor with the Holy Father and others in the Vatican, I wish it was properly presented here in the US.

I have to say that I don’t think it is very well described, defined, or explained here in the US. Maybe it’s just me. I experienced a lot of what was called Charismatic Catholicism in my teens, and it really did appear to be a lot of protestant pentecostal beliefs and actions, incorporated (sometimes at the sacrifice of Sacred Tradition or Catholic teaching!) into Catholic services.

After that, I heard terms such as “authentic renewal,” but I honestly don’t think I’ve ever had it presented in such a way that I could participate without much skeptisism. 😦
 
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Voice_Of_Reason:
This is my favorite…

churchbuilding.com/interactive/swf/html/sn_procession.html

How we have fallen…
Click to expand...
That’s just beyond words! Have those people no sense of reverence???
 
Thank you, Panis Angelicus!!! You got it!!!

You know, not all the world is made of people who are the heirs of English Protestantism, which the US is, culturally and religiously.

It is an influential heretical few (Northern European repressed people) within Catholicism who think that a silent smile in church is enough to gain a generation in Purgatory and that clapping in church is tantamount to Apostacy. What a shame. I deal with it every day. As the major pro-life figure in my area, I have to face these people who hear a baby gurgle in church and give the look of death to the mother. Think about it.

This is NOT Roman at all. This is Hibernian repression coupled with Arianism and Puritanism. Look at basic history, This behavior is NOT Catholic. In fact it is, be design and by decree, absolutely anti-Catholic.

There are not now nor were there ever Rubrics defining the attending laity to be propped up by cast-iron pipes up their a***s. One of the beauties of the Tridentine Mass is that, within reason, one who attends is allowed to and encouraged to pray as he sees fit and is inspired to do. This new Nazi idea regarding the laity’s gestures is a development of cultures, theologies and ideologies that are foreign to the Roman Church and greatly confined to the northern European and Anglican cultures.

Anyone who has studied history and has traveled (ie, lived outside his self-developed world of ideals, and actually learned and dealt with reality) knows what we’re saying.

We are ROMAN Catholic, not ARIAN Catholic, not AMERICAN Catholic and, please God, not ANGLICAN (Anglo-) Catholic.

Last note . . why are you looking at everyone else at Mass? If you were praying intently, you wouldn’t notice what others around you are doing. And dont’ give me this superficial **** about being distracted. I was able to pray my prayers and fulfill my office with bombs going off, literally within a yard behind me and not be distracted. Who made YOU the judge and jury? You don’t have a clue how good you’ve got it.

– Fr. L.
 
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Brendan:
That’s just beyond words! Have those people no sense of reverence???
Click to expand...
Well, I suppose it depends upon how one defines reverence. It could be argued that they were showing great reverance (in a bit of celebratory spirit) to the Word.
 
Fr. JLT:
It is an influential heretical few (Northern European repressed people) within Catholicism who think that a silent smile in church is enough to gain a generation in Purgatory and that clapping in church is tantamount to Apostacy. What a shame. I deal with it every day. As the major pro-life figure in my area, I have to face these people who hear a baby gurgle in church and give the look of death to the mother. Think about it.

This is NOT Roman at all. This is Hibernian repression coupled with Arianism and Puritanism. Look at basic history, This behavior is NOT Catholic. In fact it is, be design and by decree, absolutely anti-Catholic.

– Fr. L.
Click to expand...
Father,

Could you please provide the historical resources you aluded to.

I’ve read Pliny’s description of the Mass, St. Justin’s Apology,St. Cyril of Jerusalem, The Liturgy of St. James, The Liturgy of St. Sarapion and none of them mentioned anything even close to that Gospel Procession shown above.

I am also familiar with the concept of the Corpus Christi Procession. I have personally seen the reverence show, there. Never once, not a single time, have I seen in person or in any referece a twirling, dancing priest during Corpus Christi. Any this is through all cultures, Hispanic, German, Italian and yes, even ‘Hibernian’.

Why would it be wrong to expect that the Word of God be treated with the same reverence Historically shown to the Real Presence of God?

I regularly travel to Korea. There is a Church totally untouched by those heretical Hibernian influences you alluded to.

What do I see there? Quiet prayer in front of the Blessed Sacrament. Quiet listening to the readings. Internal reflection. Gee, they sound like Northern Europeans in disguise.

How do you think that happened? They learned Catholicism from Portugese missionaries living in China and brought in back to Korean themselves. The history of their Church has been exclusively under Italian Popes until JP-II and any foreign clergy has been Spanish or Portugese. Not a single major Anglo Puritian involved.

But you would say that their Church is not historically ROMAN?
 
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Voice_Of_Reason:
This is my favorite…

churchbuilding.com/interactive/swf/html/sn_procession.html

How we have fallen…
Click to expand...
I gotta admit I could do without the dancing priest, but most of the congregation in the video look to be mostly of an ethnic (non-white) culture. The music also seems to be of ethnic inculturation.

How do we know that after the dancing procession things didn’t settle down and become ultra-solemn? I understand there is singing, dancing, drums, in Africa Catholic churches, but as soon as the mass itself begins, BOOM, folks are on their knees and you could hear a pin drop.
 
“whirling dervish”, “how we have fallen”
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I think comments like this are wide of the mark. I don’t want to worship this way myself, but I think it is not inconceivable that these worshippers are giving the Gospel more reverence and acknowledgement, and are more prepared for it, than are some assisting at a typical mass at which one reading can blend into another if one isn’t paying attention. It has been observed by psychologists that there are different “intelligences”, which might translate into different ‘aptitudes’ or ‘tendencies’. Whatever they are termed, some people may respond more to movement, and I see no reason why the Real Presence of Our Lord cannot be celebrated with some movement, in part of the overall liturgy.
 
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FrmrTrad:
I. It has been observed by psychologists that there are different “intelligences”, which might translate into different ‘aptitudes’ or ‘tendencies’. .
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You mean it has been postulated by some psychologists. Your statement implies that there is an objective reality to their theories, which is certainly not proven.

If there are attention deficiencies among certain people, that is a cause for greater instruction on the inherent beauty of the Mass as it historically has been, not a requirement for the incorporation of secular element into the liturgy.

Such rhythmic movements demonstrated in the video are not, and have never been a part of Western European sacred tradition. They might have a place in African liturgy, but the people in the video were not Africans, they seemed Hispanic.

Was there such dancing at Mass in Spain historically, or how about Mexico? Would St. Theresa of Avilla or St. Juan Diego have recognized that Gospel procession as part of their liturgy?
 
**General reminder:

Charity in posts is required. Please self-edit for uncharitableness and poor word choice before submitting. For further information, please see the final post in this thread:**

Is sarcasm “uncharitable” here?

Thanks for your cooperation. 🙂
 
It looked more “assemblies of god” to me but…then…didn’t David dance before the Ark?
 
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Brendan:
Would St. Theresa of Avilla or St. Juan Diego have recognized that Gospel procession as part of their liturgy?
Click to expand...
Would the apostles have recognized much of anything in our present day liturgy?
 
strictly speaking, body movements and gestures on the part of the congregation are not liturgical innovations. The liturgy is what is happening on the altar, where the priest may not deviate from the ritual words and actions prescribed for the Mass in the rite he is celebrating. the congregation participates, but except for the responses, and guidelines on when to kneel, the rubrics are silent for the most part on bodily gestures on their part.

In a part of the world, or among worshipers of a cultural or ethnic heritage in which certain bodily expressions of joy, praise, reverence and worship are customary and appropriate, they are not out of place during Mass, as long as the rubrics are observed, and the words and actions of the priest conform to the prescribed rites.

Our deportment in Church has a lot more to do with childhood formation, ethnicity and culture than it does with rubrics, reverence and respect.
 
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