Liturgical Music regulations

[VAC]

Certainly as far as the liturgy is concerned, we cannot say that one song is as good as another. Generic improvisation or the introduction of musical genres which fail to respect the meaning of the liturgy should be avoided.

That clears things up (sarcasm) So much room for interpretation and opinions…

I think I’m done getting stressed out by all this, I’ve read everything I and the rest of you can find on the subject, and there is no black and white song list to follow.

I jumped into this thread after being asked not to play a particular song at mass last weekend. that was on the OP’s list.
Our priest went on vacation so I didn’t get to ask his reasoning for pulling the song until today. I and others in the choir were convinced that it was because it was an upbeat contemporary song. Today I asked him why he wanted the song pulled…
Are you all sitting down??? Out of respect for the priest, I won’t play the song again at mass, but, I never thought I’d hear this…
He said that someone had complained that the lyrics were too strongly worded for the children’s mass.

I desire, in accordance with the request advanced by the Synod Fathers, that Gregorian chant be suitably esteemed and employed as the chant proper to the Roman liturgy

“Suitably esteemed and employed Gregorian chant” (as opposed to “played to the exclusion of all else Gregorian chant”)
We’ve pulled off the Latin Chant mass parts, Dona Nobis Pacem,
and Tantum Ergo. Hopefully, that meets the Latin requirment.

 

[Ad_Deum]

Probably the songs are too protestant than Catholic or may be too contemporary in meaning.

Pax
Laudater Jesus Christo
Instaurare omnia in Christo

 

[VociMike]

Who here thinks the U.S. Bishops stand behind this particular bit of theology (courtesy OCP):

I myself am the bread of life
You and I are the bread of life
Taken and blessed, broken and shared by Christ.

(verse 2) This is our body
This is our blood
Living sign of God in Christ

Rory Cooney: “Bread of Life”. Text © 1987 NALR, published by OCP Publications

 

[qui_est_ce]

Who here thinks the U.S. Bishops stand behind this particular bit of theology (courtesy OCP):

Rory Cooney: “Bread of Life”. Text © 1987 NALR, published by OCP Publications[/INDENT]

Fortutous. Our choir director, who is wandering from the CC, and likes to substitute gender neutral language whenever possible, brought out a Rory Cooney song (I can’t remember the title) to substitute for last Sunday’s Psalm. It was an awful piece, difficult to sing, and the words were very odd. I can’t tell you now what the words were but a twisted version of the psalm.

Who is Rory Cooney? What is his backround? I would like more ammunition. I brought up the words to our pastor, and he is reigning her in, said a lot of people were complaining about this issue. So she ended up not doing it for the psalm.

 

[VAC]

Fortutous. Our choir director, who is wandering from the CC, and likes to substitute gender neutral language whenever possible, brought out a Rory Cooney song (I can’t remember the title) to substitute for last Sunday’s Psalm. It was an awful piece, difficult to sing, and the words were very odd. I can’t tell you now what the words were but a twisted version of the psalm.

Who is Rory Cooney? What is his backround? I would like more ammunition. I brought up the words to our pastor, and he is reigning her in, said a lot of people were complaining about this issue. So she ended up not doing it for the psalm.

Using any old song in place of the psalm is a liturgical abuse in and of itself regardless of the quality of the song or who the composer is.

I’d like more ammo myself, but there is no defense against OPINIONS!!!

 

[muledog]

People forget that there is a distinction between liturgical music and religious music. Many of the songs listed by the OP can, indeed, be deemed good religious music.

On the other hand, given the fact that the Holy Father - and all of the previous ones - define Gregorian Chant, plainchant, polyphony, etc. as being the standard-bearers in sacred liturgical music, can you reconcile “Gather us in” with these statements on liturgical worthiness? As Pope Benedict XVI stated in Sacramentum Caritatis, “as far as the liturgy is concerned, we cannot say that one song is as good as another.”

I find it telling that, at the end of this paragraph (#42) devoted to “liturgical song”, the Holy Father states my emphasis]:

Finally, while respecting various styles and different and highly praiseworthy traditions, I desire, in accordance with the request advanced by the Synod Fathers, that Gregorian chant be suitably esteemed and employed as the chant proper to the Roman liturgy."

You might also want to reflect on recent comments by the USCCB regarding Norms for Hymns at Mass.

 

[muledog]

Oh, yeah. You might want to go to the main page of the BCL, where they have a link to the [Powerpoint presentation ](http://www.usccb.org/liturgy/MUSIC FDLCnew.ppt#256,1,Slide 1)of the Subcommittee on Music in the Liturgy regarding requirements for liturgical music. A must read.

A sampling lists Three Characteristics of Liturgical Songs, which are:

1. Must be doctrinally correct
2. Chiefly based in Liturgy and Scripture
3. Relatively fixed in number

 

[Jane_K]

It’s amazing to me to see people like Marty Haugen and Bernadette Farrell and others so enthroned now in “Catholic” music. Most so-called contemporary music wanders close to the line of heresy and some crosses over.
As to JimR-OCDS who asserts that if something is in the locally used misalette, it’s been approved by the Bishop and is therefore okay–I’m sorry, but that’s ludicrous! Do you really think that the Bishop has even cursorily, much less slowly and prayerfully, gone over the texts of all those songs to check them for questionable/heretical lyrics? Your Bishop must have a lot more time than mine does.
Yes, I agree that Amazing Grace does not express Catholic theology and it was in the hymnals long before Vatican II although I don’t know how often it was sung. The song that always makes me cringe is “Let Us Break Bread” because its second verse is a clear denial of the Real Presence in the Eucharist. Yet how many times have we heard this used as a Communion hymn?!:crying:
The Bishops as a group have talked about addressing these issues. Good luck on that ever actually happening!:banghead:
In the meantime, I’ve mostly switched to an early-morning Mass that has no music so that I’m not distracted by the lack of quality either of the music itself or the poor presentation of it. As a result I find my heart sings quietly to the Lord of my life.
Adoro Te Devote, Domine!:bowdown2:

 

[PaixGioiaAmor]

I have no qualms saying that the hymn “Amazing Grace” is heretical and is inappropriate for a Catholic Mass.

On what basis is the hymn heretical?

Amazing grace, how sweet the sound that saved a wretch like me!
I once was lost, but now am found, was blind but now I see!

We are saved by grace; that is scriptural and taught by the Catholic Church. What about that is even slightly heretical?

 

[SMHW]

On what basis is the hymn heretical?

Amazing grace, how sweet the sound that saved a wretch like me!
I once was lost, but now am found, was blind but now I see!

We are saved by grace; that is scriptural and taught by the Catholic Church. What about that is even slightly heretical?

There are those who think that the intent of Amazing Grace is to promote "Once saved, always saved, " and to deny the importance of good works because those viewpoints were or were likely held by the composer.

Many such people will agree that the first verse can be interpreted in light of Catholic teaching.

 

[JMJ_coder]

Hello,

Who here thinks the U.S. Bishops stand behind this particular bit of theology (courtesy OCP):

I myself am the bread of life
You and I are the bread of life
Taken and blessed, broken and shared by Christ.

(verse 2) This is our body
This is our blood
Living sign of God in Christ

Rory Cooney: “Bread of Life”. Text © 1987 NALR, published by OCP Publications

I remember once my choir director handed out either this song or one of its ilk. He had never seen it before. The choir went through it once in practice and then he said ‘hand it back in’.

 

[JMJ_coder]

Hello,

On what basis is the hymn heretical?

Amazing grace, how sweet the sound that saved a wretch like me!
I once was lost, but now am found, was blind but now I see!

We are saved by grace; that is scriptural and taught by the Catholic Church. What about that is even slightly heretical?

The offending verse is:

’Twas grace that taught my heart to fear,
And grace my fears reliev’d;
How precious did that grace appear,
The hour I first believ’d!

This denies the sacramental nature of Baptism and also denies that the first infusion of sanctifying grace occurs at Baptism.

Besides that I can’t stand the melody.

 

[PaixGioiaAmor]

Hello,

The offending verse is:

’Twas grace that taught my heart to fear,
And grace my fears reliev’d;
How precious did that grace appear,
The hour I first believ’d!

This denies the sacramental nature of Baptism and also denies that the first infusion of sanctifying grace occurs at Baptism.

Besides that I can’t stand the melody.

I’m not sure how it does that.

You can be Baptized and not believe and openly reject Christ.

Similarly, you can receive God’s grace by believing and repenting even before being baptized.

I really think that is far too literal a reading - and maybe even reading into to find something that’s not there.

 

[rpp]

Hello,

The offending verse is:

’Twas grace that taught my heart to fear,
And grace my fears reliev’d;
How precious did that grace appear,
The hour I first believ’d!

This denies the sacramental nature of Baptism and also denies that the first infusion of sanctifying grace occurs at Baptism.

Besides that I can’t stand the melody.

I believe that is splitting liturgical hairs. I do not think anyone would say it denies the grace we receive at Baptism. Rather is is referring to grace we receive when we give the ascent of out will to God and believe in Him.

Many people are not consciously aware of the grace they received at Baptism. But they, like me, became aware of it the moment they first believed.

 

[qui_est_ce]

Sometimes, I “forget” and sing the “right” words to some of the hymns.

Betsy

Oh wow!!! I am a cantor and chorist as well. I also “forget” and sing the right words. Last week-end the Psalm was “If today you hear his voice, harden not your hearts.” Choir Director changed to “If today you hear God’s voice…” How are we supposed to memorize the psalms if she changes the words. Father-celebrant and are are on the same page about this, so we sang “HIS” real loud together. She alsways pulls this when the pastor is out of town.

What I don’t like about the songs mentioned, like Gather Us in is they are so SAPPY and watered down. Okay, that’s my opinion. The CC has such beautiful music in her repertoire. Even some of the South African music is great. It’s different, but fun and refreshing.

But it’s reflective of the sappy and watered down CC we have today. I think the church is in for a HUGE revitalization with a new sacredness, and respect. Scores are leaving the CC because they are getting no spirituality, no sense of the sacred.

When a choir director can change lyrics and choose music because it’s PC, then you know you’re in trouble. I have been asked to leave the choir loft when objecting to abuse. She says she takes her music seriously. I say I take my faith seriously. CD has resigned. Sad because she is very talented.

I’d still like to know if anyone has any information on Roy Cooney. I googled and can’t find much. I have a feeling there’s something fishy about his background and music.

 

[muledog]

Oh wow!!! I am a cantor and chorist as well. I also “forget” and sing the right words. Last week-end the Psalm was “If today you hear his voice, harden not your hearts.” Choir Director changed to “If today you hear God’s voice…” How are we supposed to memorize the psalms if she changes the words. Father-celebrant and are are on the same page about this, so we sang “HIS” real loud together. She alsways pulls this when the pastor is out of town.

The same thing happened in our parish last year. You are probably using the Gather hymnal, which inclusivized almost every psalm and hymn around. When I brought this up to our choir director/cantor, she was surprised to learn that the words had been changed, and vowed to review all hymns from now on prior to using them in the Mass.

 

[qui_est_ce]

I would beg to differ (respectfully of course)
I am a cantor and chorister and love a variety of musical styles from chant to Palestrina to Mozart to Early American to Spirituals and even to some St. Louis Jesuits and a few Haugen-Haas confections. My philosophy is to worship the Creator of music by singing all these styles with as much excellence as I can muster.
:

Absolutely. It’s about helping people praise God, and not about yourself.

These and other castrated lyrics are found in the hardbound Gather Hymnal. The rewritten lyrics water down doctrine, destroy the poetry of precise and clever language, and advance a feminizing and neopagan agenda.

:

Amen, especially when it comes to promoting a liberal agenda such as earth worship (Morning has Broken) :bowdown2:

How about Jesu Joy of OUR Desiring, instead of Jesu joy of MAN’s Desiring. I consider that changing history. CD is better than JS Bach?

Let me state for the record that I am female (tho not pagan) but think that recreating God in a solely feminine, maternal image (even when speaking of the Second Person of the Trinity who was unquestionably born a biological male) is offputting both to males and females who look for the universal truth.

Sorry for the lengthly rant. I am still new to CAL forums.

I am female too, and I agree. You put into words the same issues am facing. Do you mind if I quote you?

 

[rpp]

Oh wow!!! I am a cantor and chorist as well. I also “forget” and sing the right words. Last week-end the Psalm was “If today you hear his voice, harden not your hearts.” Choir Director changed to “If today you hear God’s voice…” How are we supposed to memorize the psalms if she changes the words. Father-celebrant and are are on the same page about this, so we sang “HIS” real loud together. She alsways pulls this when the pastor is out of town.

What I don’t like about the songs mentioned, like Gather Us in is they are so SAPPY and watered down. Okay, that’s my opinion. The CC has such beautiful music in her repertoire. Even some of the South African music is great. It’s different, but fun and refreshing.

But it’s reflective of the sappy and watered down CC we have today. I think the church is in for a HUGE revitalization with a new sacredness, and respect. Scores are leaving the CC because they are getting no spirituality, no sense of the sacred.

When a choir director can change lyrics and choose music because it’s PC, then you know you’re in trouble. I have been asked to leave the choir loft when objecting to abuse. She says she takes her music seriously. I say I take my faith seriously. CD has resigned. Sad because she is very talented.

** I’d still like to know if anyone has any information on Roy Cooney. I googled and can’t find much. I have a feeling there’s something fishy about his background and music.**

I believe his name is Rory Cooney, not Roy.

Here is his website. rorycooney.com/home.htm

His bio from Oregon Catholic Press. ocp.org/artists/1603

Here is his personal blog. web.mac.com/stannerory/iWeb/bloggage/New_Blog/New_Blog.html

His blog is pretty revealing. In one article, “The Good Samaritan” he describes a person’s use of the acronym “EMHoC” as a “charmingly obedient acronym… for Eucharistic Ministers.” The title of another article says it all, “Grokking the ‘Our’ in ‘Our Father’”. In his “Mercy Not Sacrifice” article, he bemoans the (at the time it was written) the forthcoming motu proprio freeing the Mass of Pope John XXIII. Apparently, he does not like the fact that they would not play his music.

 

[qui_est_ce]

You are probably using the Gather hymnal, which inclusivized almost every psalm and hymn around. When I brought this up to our choir director/cantor, she was surprised to learn that the words had been changed, and vowed to review all hymns from now on prior to using them in the Mass.

We use Choral Praise which is a newer and more estrogenized version of Gather. It has gender neutral Psalms in it.

Our CD and some choir members openly seek to change the words. We have gotten sheet music on which the words were cut and pasted, and the paste was still literally wet!:yup:

CD’s latest obsession is she has decided the congregation doesn’t understand the words in the Psalms. She has taken upon herself to “interpret” for them. She changed the following words in the Psalms of recent Sundays:

'usury" to " lend".

leaving out "in the line of Melchizadek (sp?)

deleted expiation.

I finally blurted out, Catholics aren’t stupid. I got kicked out again. uch:

(CD is a convert from Lutheranism and claims she didn’t need to give up Lutheran to become Catholic):dts: what part of faith AND works did she forget)

 

[VAC]

What I don’t like about the songs mentioned, like Gather Us in is they are so SAPPY and watered down

By sappy do you mean that the songs evoke feelings?
Once again, more opinions than facts on a music thread. Not directed at you personally, just a frequent observation of mine.

I’d still like to know if anyone has any information on Roy Cooney. I googled and can’t find much. I have a feeling there’s something fishy about his background and music.:hmmm

ocp.org/artists/1603
Here you go from OCP’s site.