Liturgical Music regulations

[JMJ_coder]

Hello,

I’m not sure how it does that.

You can be Baptized and not believe and openly reject Christ.

Similarly, you can receive God’s grace by believing and repenting even before being baptized.

I really think that is far too literal a reading - and maybe even reading into to find something that’s not there.

I believe that is splitting liturgical hairs. I do not think anyone would say it denies the grace we receive at Baptism. Rather is is referring to grace we receive when we give the ascent of out will to God and believe in Him.

Many people are not consciously aware of the grace they received at Baptism. But they, like me, became aware of it the moment they first believed.

It is not about splitting liturgical hairs (nothing to do with the Liturgy) but about proclaiming doctrinal truth.

Amazing Grace is about what is called sanctifying grace - that is the grace that saves us and places us in a state of grace. This grace is first infused into a person at the moment of Baptism. As the Catechism states:

1265 Baptism not only purifies from all sins, but also makes the neophyte “a new creature,” an adopted son of God, who has become a “partaker of the divine nature,”(⇒ 2 Cor 5:17; ⇒ 2 Pet 1:4; cf. ⇒ Gal 4:5-7.) member of Christ and coheir with him,(Cf. ⇒ 1 Cor 6:15; ⇒ 12:27; ⇒ Rom 8:17.) and a temple of the Holy Spirit.(Cf. ⇒ 1 Cor 6:19.)

1266 The Most Holy Trinity gives the baptized sanctifying grace, the grace of justification:

• enabling them to believe in God, to hope in him, and to love him through the theological virtues;
• giving them the power to live and act under the prompting of the Holy Spirit through the gifts of the Holy Spirit;
• allowing them to grow in goodness through the moral virtues.
  Thus the whole organism of the Christian’s supernatural life has its roots in Baptism.

Now certainly, even before Baptism is conferred God pours out His grace on a person. As the Apostle says “For God is the one who, for his good purpose, works in you both to desire and to work.” (Philippians 2:13) No one can do anything good, but by the grace of God. No one can proclaim Jesus Lord except by the Holy Spirit. (1 Corinthians 12:3) When a person converts, it is the grace of the Lord that converts their heart. These various graces are called actual graces. This is Catholic teaching, in fact it is heresy to say that a person can do good and be saved by their own work (Pelagianism/Semi-Pelagianism).

Certainly, a person can forfeit their sanctifying grace after Baptism through mortal sin, it can be recovered again through the Sacrament of Baptism. But to say that one can achieve a state of grace without Baptism is a denial of Catholic teaching.

 

[smessner]

Absolutely. It’s about helping people praise God, and not about yourself.

I have noticed a trend in modern liturgical music that seems to emphasize OUR actions, instead of praising God. “I myself am the bread of life”, “Let US break bread”, “Gather US in”, devote lots of words to telling God how wonderful WE are. I am becoming more and more uncomfortable with this.

RE: Amazing Grace - did you know that the words of Amazing Grace can be sung to the tune of the theme from “Gilligan’s Island”?

I’d like to throw out another twist to this discussion. Our CD was instructed by our former pastor to NOT announce song numbers or titles during Mass because it “interrupts the flow of the Mass”. We don’t use worship aid handouts, so the only way to know the song number is to try and read it off the number board. This works great if you have eagle-eye vision or are sitting in one of the front pews.

I have discussed this issue with our new pastor and with the CD. This puts an unnecessary barrier up for those who can’t see the boards. What ever happened to “Full and active participation” if you can’t sing along because you don’t know what they’re singing?

Just wondering if any of you have encountered anything similar or have any thoughts about this.

 

[qui_est_ce]

Absolutely. I have noticed a trend in modern liturgical music that seems to emphasize OUR actions, instead of praising God. “I myself am the bread of life”, “Let US break bread”, “Gather US in”, devote lots of words to telling God how wonderful WE are. I am becoming more and more uncomfortable with this.

Wow, I never thought about it from this angle. I think this is the underlying issue that I couldn’t put my finger on about the songs.

I’d like to throw out another twist to this discussion. Our CD was instructed by our former pastor to NOT announce song numbers or titles during Mass because it “interrupts the flow of the Mass”. We don’t use worship aid handouts, so the only way to know the song number is to try and read it off the number board. This works great if you have eagle-eye vision or are sitting in one of the front pews.

Yes, that is what we do too. And the CD wonders why the congregation doesn’t sing. But they do try. I can hear it when I am cantoring. :extrahappy:

I have discussed this issue with our new pastor and with the CD. This puts an unnecessary barrier up for those who can’t see the boards. What ever happened to “Full and active participation” if you can’t sing along because you don’t know what they’re singing?

Just wondering if any of you have encountered anything similar or have any thoughts about this.

I have been going to two masses on Sundays, 9:30 “High Mass” with choir, and 11:30 late mass as part of the congregation. (yes our priests and homilies are THAT GOOD!!) At 9:30 AM,. the choir sings. At 11:30 no choir, just cantors. I sing LOUDLY at 11:30 to help those around me sing comfortabley. I realized I resent it when Lamb of God is dictated by Cantor, like, Lamb of God Who Takes Away the Sin of the World, Bread of Life Who Takes Away the Sin, Son of God, Who Takes Away the Sin, etc. I ALWAYS sing it anyway even though I am not invited. Lamb of God belongs to me not the choir.:angel1:

What’s really weird, is I used to be so tolerant, but the more I read about the Church and the Church Fathers, the more orthodox I become.:bowdown2:

I have also noticed that all the cantors want to cantor 9:30 Mass where they will be noticed, because that’s the most frequented mass of Sunday, and nobody wants to do 7:30 am.

What happened to praising God and it’s not about me and my talent?:newidea:

 

[PaixGioiaAmor]

qui est ce;2557663:

I have noticed a trend in modern liturgical music that seems to emphasize OUR actions, instead of praising God. “I myself am the bread of life”, “Let US break bread”, “Gather US in”, devote lots of words to telling God how wonderful WE are. I am becoming more and more uncomfortable with this.

This, really, I think is reading A LOT into something where it was never intended.

It is good for an Entrance hymn to express people being “gathered” together. This is spoken of in “Music in Catholic Worship”. It’s hard to do that without making SOME reference to ourselves.

Liturgy is the work of the people. It is about a lot of things; it is about praising God, it is about sacrifice, it is about grace, and yes, WE are part of the equation.

As for “I myself am the bread of life”, it’s poorly written. But I can see what the composer was trying to do; and it’s not heretical.

 

[Mimi]

Oh, yeah. You might want to go to the main page of the BCL, where they have a link to the [Powerpoint presentation ](http://www.usccb.org/liturgy/MUSIC FDLCnew.ppt#256,1,Slide 1)of the Subcommittee on Music in the Liturgy regarding requirements for liturgical music. A must read.

A sampling lists Three Characteristics of Liturgical Songs, which are:

1. Must be doctrinally correct
2. Chiefly based in Liturgy and Scripture
3. Relatively fixed in number

Please tell me how **Lord of the Dance **is Scriptural.
I do not think it is, and I won’t sing it. It was even presented at a conference we went to by someone who was demonstrating on how to use piano more effectively in accompanying hymnody.

I’d also like to see a forum for pastoral musicians.

God bless,
Mimi

 

[Mimi]

qui est ce;2557663:

(snip)

It can also be sung to “The House of the Rising Sun”.

I’d like to throw out another twist to this discussion. Our CD was instructed by our former pastor to NOT announce song numbers or titles during Mass because it “interrupts the flow of the Mass”. We don’t use worship aid handouts, so the only way to know the song number is to try and read it off the number board. This works great if you have eagle-eye vision or are sitting in one of the front pews.

I have discussed this issue with our new pastor and with the CD. This puts an unnecessary barrier up for those who can’t see the boards. What ever happened to “Full and active participation” if you can’t sing along because you don’t know what they’re singing?

Just wondering if any of you have encountered anything similar or have any thoughts about this

My dh is our CD - when we have a special feast like during Holy Week, we use worship aids. We used to have a hymn no. board, but in a large church, they aren’t practical. And announcing the numbers is the only solution.

He suggested we get an ELECTRONIC board! While the numbers would be visible, it would be aesthetically disturbing! At my father’s funeral Mass they used one; this church is the one I grew up in, a small cathedral in a teeny rural town built by German immigrants. It was kinda disturbing. I guess the congregation has shrunk, so they don’t use the choir loft anymore, and the organ is now on the first level. Signs of the times.

I suppose the hymns could be printed in the bulletin, but that might not be possible in all places and requires a good deal of planning.

God bless,
Mimi

 

[smessner]

smessner;2558394:

This, really, I think is reading A LOT into something where it was never intended.

It is good for an Entrance hymn to express people being “gathered” together. This is spoken of in “Music in Catholic Worship”. It’s hard to do that without making SOME reference to ourselves.

Liturgy is the work of the people. It is about a lot of things; it is about praising God, it is about sacrifice, it is about grace, and yes, WE are part of the equation.

As for “I myself am the bread of life”, it’s poorly written. But I can see what the composer was trying to do; and it’s not heretical.

Perhaps the song choices at our parish are just heavily weighted in the “ME/US” category.

MICW states:
“60. The two processional chants—the entrance song and the communion song—are very important for creating and sustaining an awareness of community. Proper antiphons are given to be used with appropriate psalm verses. These may be replaced by the chants of the Simple Gradual, by other psalms and antiphons, or by other fitting songs.3”

A lot is left to interpretation here. When I read paragraph 60, it sounds like the recommended option is “Proper antiphons…used with appropriate psalm verses”. I’ve read MICW numerous times and I don’t know that I ever noticed that phrase. And I’ve never felt a particular awareness of community when those antiphons are recited. So if that is option #1, what do they consider to be “other fitting songs”?

As I read thru MICW, I can’t help but wonder how some of it fits in with Pope Benedict’s recent document. More specifically, how does it fit in with the Tridentine Mass, should a parish decide to use it? I’m not old enough to remember the Tridentine Mass, but from what I’ve heard, there is no place for guitar accompaniment.

Over the years, my opinions about/taste in Liturgical music have changed. I was in grade school when “Guitar Masses” became the rage and I thought they were great. I learned to play guitar so I could play at Mass. I wore out a set of “Neither Silver Nor Gold” records (Remember records?!) Joe Wise, the Damians, the St. Louis Jesuits, and even some of Carey Landry’s were some of my favorites. David Haas, Marty Haugen and yes, Rory Cooney joined them.

After learning more about the history of the Mass, the Scriptural basis for the prayers and structure, I’m rethinking some of my old favorites. Something tells me that Worship is about me/us only in how we relate to God. And because of Him, to each other. But mostly, it’s about the honor due to God because of who God is.

 

[smessner]

He suggested we get an ELECTRONIC board! While the numbers would be visible, it would be aesthetically disturbing! At my father’s funeral Mass they used one; this church is the one I grew up in, a small cathedral in a teeny rural town built by German immigrants. It was kinda disturbing.

Electronic number board!? I envision something akin to the flashing sign in the drugstore that gives helpful health hints.
At this late hour, my imagination can really go crazy and think of all sorts of silly things that could happen with such a device!

I have seen giant projector screens used at a local Methodist Church. These don’t put up song numbers. Instead they put up the lyrics of the songs. This has its advantages at that Church, but I’m trying to picture how well it would work for Mass. The technology is interesting. Do any of you have experience with this high-tech songleading device?

 

[PaixGioiaAmor]

PaixGioiaAmor;2558822:

As I read thru MICW, I can’t help but wonder how some of it fits in with Pope Benedict’s recent document. More specifically, how does it fit in with the Tridentine Mass, should a parish decide to use it?

It doesn’t. It was written in reference to the new mass, at a time when there was no vision for the proliferation of Tridentine masses.

 

[smessner]

smessner;2559020:

It doesn’t. It was written in reference to the new mass, at a time when there was no vision for the proliferation of Tridentine masses.

Exactly.

So will there be new guidelines set forth? Or will MICW be revised?

 

[PaixGioiaAmor]

My guess is that new guidelines will be set forth specifically addressed to the Tridentine mass.

 

[Jane_K]

He suggested we get an ELECTRONIC board! While the numbers would be visible, it would be aesthetically disturbing! At my father’s funeral Mass they used one; this church is the one I grew up in, a small cathedral in a teeny rural town built by German immigrants. It was kinda disturbing.

Electronic number board!? I envision something akin to the flashing sign in the drugstore that gives helpful health hints.
At this late hour, my imagination can really go crazy and think of all sorts of silly things that could happen with such a device!

I have seen giant projector screens used at a local Methodist Church. These don’t put up song numbers. Instead they put up the lyrics of the songs. This has its advantages at that Church, but I’m trying to picture how well it would work for Mass. The technology is interesting. Do any of you have experience with this high-tech songleading device?

Years ago–in San Antonio–I attended a church that used such a device at Mass. It was exceedingly distracting and made me feel as if I were at a hootenanny. (Anybody else out there old enough to remember those?!) Do we want to have the focus on the dancing dots following the lyrics or do we want the focus on the altar where the real action is going on? The choice to me is obvious.:yup:

 

[rpp]

Hello,

It is not about splitting liturgical hairs (nothing to do with the Liturgy) but about proclaiming doctrinal truth.

Amazing Grace is about what is called sanctifying grace - that is the grace that saves us and places us in a state of grace. This grace is first infused into a person at the moment of Baptism. As the Catechism states:

1265 Baptism not only purifies from all sins, but also makes the neophyte “a new creature,” an adopted son of God, who has become a “partaker of the divine nature,”(⇒ 2 Cor 5:17; ⇒ 2 Pet 1:4; cf. ⇒ Gal 4:5-7.) member of Christ and coheir with him,(Cf. ⇒ 1 Cor 6:15; ⇒ 12:27; ⇒ Rom 8:17.) and a temple of the Holy Spirit.(Cf. ⇒ 1 Cor 6:19.)

1266 The Most Holy Trinity gives the baptized sanctifying grace, the grace of justification:- enabling them to believe in God, to hope in him, and to love him through the theological virtues;

• giving them the power to live and act under the prompting of the Holy Spirit through the gifts of the Holy Spirit;
• allowing them to grow in goodness through the moral virtues.
  Thus the whole organism of the Christian’s supernatural life has its roots in Baptism.
  Now certainly, even before Baptism is conferred God pours out His grace on a person. As the Apostle says “For God is the one who, for his good purpose, works in you both to desire and to work.” (Philippians 2:13) No one can do anything good, but by the grace of God. No one can proclaim Jesus Lord except by the Holy Spirit. (1 Corinthians 12:3) When a person converts, it is the grace of the Lord that converts their heart. These various graces are called actual graces. This is Catholic teaching, in fact it is heresy to say that a person can do good and be saved by their own work (Pelagianism/Semi-Pelagianism).

Certainly, a person can forfeit their sanctifying grace after Baptism through mortal sin, it can be recovered again through the Sacrament of Baptism. But to say that one can achieve a state of grace without Baptism is a denial of Catholic teaching.

For those who are watching…

This is an example of an ad nauseum argument.

JMJ_Coder, I understand that you desire, quite correctly, that music must be doctrinally correct. But I completely disgree with you interpretation that “Amazing Grace” denies the doctrines you claim it does. I suspect that you may find yourself alone in your position. Or at least you will not be able to cite a source that does not resort to “but it was written by a protestant”.

How do I know this? Because you quote many important sources, but you do not quote the lyrics. The few lines you did quote were, at best only very slightly ambiguous. If you want to be taken seriously, show us where is denies doctrine by quoting lyrics.

But remember, people as they sing a song, do not engage in tome-length analysis of the music. Unless it says something that is outright false, then it is fine. For example, some of the music quoted earlier denies the Real Presence in the Holy Eucharist. That is a serious problem. But a song that praises and thanks the grace of God that changed the heart of the author does not seem anti-Catholic at all.

I will, however, entertain the vanishingly remote possibility that you may be correct, but only if you can cite a reliable source, like a bishop, the USCCB, or an official document from the Vatican.

 

[pprimeau1976]

Hello,

The offending verse is:

’Twas grace that taught my heart to fear,
And grace my fears reliev’d;
How precious did that grace appear,
The hour I first believ’d!

This denies the sacramental nature of Baptism and also denies that the first infusion of sanctifying grace occurs at Baptism.

Besides that I can’t stand the melody.

How precious did that grace appear,
The hour I first believ’d!

This should not offend anyone. This verse does not say that grace appeared the hour he first believed. It actually says that it appeared precious the hour he first believed.

This hymn tells a story of a conversion process and speaks more of actual grace than sanctifying grace. Actual grace is the grace that leads a person to either become baptised into the Church or go to confession after 10 or 20 years. Throughout the conversion process, there are times that the actual grace of God is not welcome. And to some, including the writer of “Amazing Grace”, the moments when God’s actual grace was unwelcome are seen with new eyes once a person believes.

 

[Brendan]

On what basis is the hymn heretical?

Amazing grace, how sweet the sound that saved a wretch like me!
I once was lost, but now am found, was blind but now I see!

We are saved by grace; that is scriptural and taught by the Catholic Church. What about that is even slightly heretical?

Those very lines are Calvinist in nature and reflect the 'Low Church" Anglicanism of Newton.

Catholics do not believe a person is wretched, but rather actions or conditions might be. Persons are created in the image and likeness of God and are intrinsically Good.

 

[rpp]

Those very lines are Calvinist. Catholics do not believe a person is wretched, but rather action are. Persons are created in the image and likeness of God and are intrinsically Good.

Calvin believed in predestination. So grace has little to do with it.

And I was a wretch before my conversion.

 

[pprimeau1976]

In the absence of an official “Do not use these songs for Liturgy” list, please comment on the appropriateness of the following songs…and please state why or why not (appropriate for liturgy according to official Vatican documents).

City of God - appropriate if done right. This song does sound good with an Organ. There should be no reason someone should feel inspired to murder it with the normal guitar strumming.

***Gather us In *- **It’s appropriate and the lyrics are fine, even the “give us the courage to enter the song” lyric that is so “scandalous”. This is another tune that can be played on the organ, and can even sound good on the piano.

***Lord of the Dance *- I never liked the LYRICS. Why should I dance wherever I should be? If I am in line at the bank, should I start dancing? I get the gist of the song, I am to be joyful. I am all for being joyful, but why do you insist that I dance? And what dance should I do? The Chicken?

**We are One Body - **I fell in love with this song when John Michael Talbot did it on his Table of Plenty album. There is nothing wrong with the lyrics, but the problem is that Talbot used his own arrangement and the arrangement that’s available stinks. It was not written for an organ, and I suspect it would sound bad. If Talbot published his arrangement of this, it would sound good if you had a good instrumentalists.

**Table of Plenty - **Same as above.

 

[pprimeau1976]

Those very lines are Calvinist in nature and reflect the 'Low Church" Anglicanism of Newton.

Catholics do not believe a person is wretched, but rather actions or conditions might be. Persons are created in the image and likeness of God and are intrinsically Good.

With this posting along with other postings on “Amazing Grace”, it seems to me that these objections are perhaps more out of some fear of ANY protestant influence on Catholicism to the point that hymns written by protestants shouldn’t even be considered.

Many of these objections are really reaching. Do you scrutinize Catholic hymns as much as you scrutinize protestant hymns?

 

[Brendan]

With this posting along with other postings on “Amazing Grace”, it seems to me that these objections are perhaps more out of some fear of ANY protestant influence on Catholicism to the point that hymns written by protestants shouldn’t even be considered.

Why should we be in the business of promoting heretical doctrines

And I would have to say that there are several Protestant written hymns that are also doctrinally correct, “Jesu Joy of Man’s Desiring” comes to mind, as well as “O God, beyond all praising”, even Luther’s “A Mighty Fortress” is doctrinally fine.

Many of these objections are really reaching. Do you scrutinize Catholic hymns as much as you scrutinize protestant hymns?

Yep, why should I not? I am responsible for the religious education of my children, why should I want them singing junk?

I have yet to find anything doctrinally wrong with “Hail Holy Queen”, “Immaculate Mary”, “Faith of our Fathers”, “The Church’s One Foundation” , “Let all Mortal Flesh Keep Silent” , “Prayer of St. Francis” and quite a number of others.

 

[pprimeau1976]

Why should we be in the business of promoting heretical doctrines

Amazing Grace does not promote any heretical doctrine whether it is the loosely interpreted “how precious did that grace appear/the hour I first believed” line or the debate over the term “wretch”.

And I would have to say that there are several Protestant written hymns that are also doctrinally correct, “Jesu Joy of Man’s Desiring” comes to mind, as well as “O God, beyond all praising”, even Luther’s “A Mighty Fortress” is doctrinally fine.

Glad you think so.

Yep, why should I not? I am responsible for the religious education of my children, why should I want them singing junk?

I would hope that you don’t teach your children doctrines based solely on Church lyrics. I would hope that you use the Catechism and Scripture as well. Personally, I don’t know of any better way of teaching on the basics of grace than this song. Afterall, it documents John Newton’s own personal experience. The purpose of him using the word wretch was to describe his behavior as a slave trader prior to his conversion. Being a slave ship owner is wretched, just like running an abortion mill is wretched. The song’s purpose is not to say that we are wretched, it is to say that God’s grace is “Amazing.”