Liturgical Music regulations

[JimR-OCDS]

It’s amazing to me to see people like Marty Haugen and Bernadette Farrell and others so enthroned now in “Catholic” music. Most so-called contemporary music wanders close to the line of heresy and some crosses over.
As to JimR-OCDS who asserts that if something is in the locally used misalette, it’s been approved by the Bishop and is therefore okay–I’m sorry, but that’s ludicrous! :

Right, the Liturgical Committee of the United States Catholic Bishops are nothing but heretics and have no right authorizing music for the liturgy. We’ll just listen to you from now on.

Jim

 

[qui_est_ce]

“give us the courage to enter the song”

I still like the explanation that it takes courage to sing something so stupid and boring. It just DRAGS on. :yawn: In my opinion the words are stupid and the music is stupid. It’s sappy and boring. It is hard to sing as well.

***Lord of the Dance *- I never liked the LYRICS. Why should I dance wherever I should be? If I am in line at the bank, should I start dancing? I get the gist of the song, I am to be joyful. I am all for being joyful, but why do you insist that I dance? And what dance should I do? The Chicken?

how about the duck? The common thread here is that the music is not inspiring, and the words have no meaning. And there is such rich and wonderful stuff out there we could be using.

 

[Jane_K]

Right, the Liturgical Committee of the United States Catholic Bishops are nothing but heretics and have no right authorizing music for the liturgy. We’ll just listen to you from now on.

Jim

Snide, aren’t we? Remember the “Glory and Praise” Hymnal that had (No. 15 if I remember correctly) “Great Things Happen When God Mixes With Us” as one of its charming selections? That was also published with permission by the Bishops. My point is that a Bishop has more to do than read every line of every hymn used in his diocese. It has also been said that the people in the pews get the priests that they want and I think the same applies to the music. A lot of the liturgical abuses after Vatican II happened partly because the people in the pews didn’t want to challenge the priest. Yet, specifically because liturgy is the “work of the people,” we do, in fact, have significant responsibility for what goes on. If you find that irritating, I am sorry, but there it is. I’ll take the heat to stand for the Lord and His Church as faithfully as I can. Sometimes that’s better than others. My impression, though, was that this forum is a discussion and so opinions are acceptable–mine included!

 

[qui_est_ce]

That was also published with permission by the Bishops. My point is that a Bishop has more to do than read every line of every hymn used in his diocese. included!

And then there are those, like our dear soon to be ex CD, who will refer us to the Canadian Bishops, and the African Bishops, and have us come to the conclusion there are no rules. The fact that the CC is helping other cultures adapt the Liturgy to their culture is being twisted to attack the CC’s teaching. If the CC would not do allow this adaptation, it would be considered too rigid to appeal to other cultures. So the CC is “damned” if they do and damned if they don’t.

I think the problem is musicians have big egos, and they are using their music to make polical statements. By political, I mean what the CC SHOULD be focusing on (name your agenda: gender neutral, earth worship, female priests). Actually, I should say that is the problem in our parish. Our CD is extremely intelligent and talented, but has wandered into all these things over the last few years.

What particularly concerns me is the changing of the words of the Responsorial Psalms. I have been memorizing the Psalms. I am also a lector at 6:30 mass once a week and cantor Sundays… If I would change the words of the Psalm I read, I would be castigated. Yet on Sundays, all sorts of changes and word twisting are done to the RP. People don’t get it, and think they are in the wrong place in the misalette. Some people will claim the words have to fit the music. WRONG, we already have beautiful music chant in our Respond and Acclaim accompaniment. Chant is so much easier for the congregation to understand than silly words sliding up and down the scale.

I dont’ believe Liturgical music is the place to be “creative.” Particulary when it is sung from the Ambo as the Word of God.

 

[Jane_K]

And then there are those, like our dear soon to be ex CD, who will refer us to the Canadian Bishops, and the African Bishops, and have us come to the conclusion there are no rules. The fact that the CC is helping other cultures adapt the Liturgy to their culture is being twisted to attack the CC’s teaching. If the CC would not do allow this adaptation, it would be considered too rigid to appeal to other cultures. So the CC is “damned” if they do and damned if they don’t.

I think the problem is musicians have big egos, and they are using their music to make polical statements. By political, I mean what the CC SHOULD be focusing on (name your agenda: gender neutral, earth worship, female priests). Actually, I should say that is the problem in our parish. Our CD is extremely intelligent and talented, but has wandered into all these things over the last few years.

What particularly concerns me is the changing of the words of the Responsorial Psalms. I have been memorizing the Psalms. I am also a lector at 6:30 mass once a week and cantor Sundays… If I would change the words of the Psalm I read, I would be castigated. Yet on Sundays, all sorts of changes and word twisting are done to the RP. People don’t get it, and think they are in the wrong place in the misalette. Some people will claim the words have to fit the music. WRONG, we already have beautiful music chant in our Respond and Acclaim accompaniment. Chant is so much easier for the congregation to understand than silly words sliding up and down the scale.

I dont’ believe Liturgical music is the place to be “creative.” Particulary when it is sung from the Ambo as the Word of God.

I’ve also run into the changing of the Psalms. Our CD likes to use the OCP settings for the Psalms found in the Music Issue. Problem is, often this uses different verses than the ones designated in the Lectionary. While a musician is allowed to make minor changes so that the words fit the music, this does not mean changing the meaning or wholesale substitution of verses. My priest and I are due to have a discussion of this issue soon because it seems to me that we either follow the Lectionary or we don’t. If we don’t, we’re not in line with the Church and so are Protestant. Personally, I didn’t become a Catholic to be a Protestant!

 

[qui_est_ce]

I believe his name is Rory Cooney, not Roy.

Here is his website. rorycooney.com/home.htm

His bio from Oregon Catholic Press. ocp.org/artists/1603

Here is his personal blog. web.mac.com/stannerory/iWeb/bloggage/New_Blog/New_Blog.html

His blog is pretty revealing. In one article, “The Good Samaritan” he describes a person’s use of the acronym “EMHoC” as a “charmingly obedient acronym… for Eucharistic Ministers.” The title of another article says it all, “Grokking the ‘Our’ in ‘Our Father’”. In his “Mercy Not Sacrifice” article, he bemoans the (at the time it was written) the forthcoming motu proprio freeing the Mass of Pope John XXIII. Apparently, he does not like the fact that they would not play his music.

I must confess I’m impressed by your analysis of these rants. They are very revealing and will take me a couple of days to digest. The pictures are disturbing. I will read more.

What really scares me, is that I used to be so ‘tolerant.’ I grew up on the Tridentine Mass in my formative (grade school years), I don’t particularly like it, but the more I read and learn about the CC, the more orthodox I have become. How can it be that these supposedly educated people are so defiant, but in such a wimpy way. The whole blog is wimp. Rory knows the truth, but it doesn’t fit his lifestyle, so he is pretending that HE cares about people, those lifestyles that contradict the teachings of the CC and the CC has either abandoned them, or that the true Catholic teaching would encourage this lifestyle with love…

:bigyikes: was the really me saying all that?

 

[qui_est_ce]

I’ve also run into the changing of the Psalms. Our CD likes to use the OCP settings for the Psalms found in the Music Issue. Problem is, often this uses different verses than the ones designated in the Lectionary. While a musician is allowed to make minor changes so that the words fit the music, this does not mean changing the meaning or wholesale substitution of verses. My priest and I are due to have a discussion of this issue soon because it seems to me that we either follow the Lectionary or we don’t. If we don’t, we’re not in line with the Church and so are Protestant. Personally, I didn’t become a Catholic to be a Protestant!

We use OCP, and it is much more faithful to the NAB than anything else that has been presented. (Choral and Praise Comprehensive, and Song and Spirit (which is also published by OCP). I had been trying to be the small voice of St. Therese of Lisieux at choir practice. Didn’t work, kept getting overriden. Our (newer )pastor had been calling CD to task on these issues, but she continued. She is a “former” protestant, and is doing what Protestants do best, protest. You are so right, no need to reinvent the wheel.:clapping:

I will pray for you in your discussions with your priest. The Holy Spirit will give you the words.

 

[VAC]

The fact that the CC is helping other cultures adapt the Liturgy to their culture is being twisted to attack the CC’s teaching. If the CC would not do allow this adaptation, it would be considered too rigid to appeal to other cultures. So the CC is “damned” if they do and damned if they don’t.

So why would it be OK to adapt Liturgy to other cultures and not to ours.? Or does all music have to follow Old European tradition? It sounds like you are disagreeing with the bishop’s authority to make decisions for their areas.

I think the problem is musicians have big egos, and they are using their music to make polical statements. By political, I mean what the CC SHOULD be focusing on (name your agenda: gender neutral, earth worship, female priests).

You can’t be a musician or singer without some amount of ego. It takes confidence and belief in one’s abilities to and sing or play an instrument in public.
Can you give me ONE expamle of a song you’ve heard at mass that promotes female preists?
Also, can you tell me how you are certain that songs are not praising God’s creation but are earth worship??. Examples?

What particularly concerns me is the changing of the words of the Responsorial Psalms

. I agree. I would not dare to change the wording of the psalm without permission.

I dont’ believe Liturgical music is the place to be “creative.” Particulary when it is sung from the Ambo as the Word of God.

All music has been ‘created’ Someone had to write it, compose and arrange it.
Why is only the creativity of older composers acceptable?
So in your opinion, no new music should be written, and no one can ever rearrange a song???

 

[VAC]

My point is that a Bishop has more to do than read every line of every hymn used in his diocese.

I would think that a Bishop or priest who’s been around for a while would have attended and said many masses and would have heard and gotten to know many songs in their religious life.
I don’t beleive they’re clueless. Just like the rest of us, they become very familiar with the songs they hear frequently

 

[VAC]

I’ve also run into the changing of the Psalms. Our CD likes to use the OCP settings for the Psalms found in the Music Issue. Problem is, often this uses different verses than the ones designated in the Lectionary.

Are your CD and priest aware that OCP annually publishes
“Respond and Accalim” with psalms for every Sunday and Holy day… and it’s true to the lectionary??? They tend to be musically much simpler, and most of the Gospel Acclamations are chant-like in nature.

 

[porthos11]

With this posting along with other postings on “Amazing Grace”, it seems to me that these objections are perhaps more out of some fear of ANY protestant influence on Catholicism to the point that hymns written by protestants shouldn’t even be considered.

Absolutely false. Many well-loved traditional hymns used for Mass are Protestant in origin. Just take “The Church’s One Foundation”, “Come Thou Almighty King” and “Come Thou Long Expected Jesus” are all Protestant, yet they are well-entrenched as theologically orthodox and musically beautiful pieces. Many solid hymns used by the Church are from John, Charles, and Samuel Wesley, for instance.

As for Amazing Grace, no opinions whatsoever will change these three facts:

1. Saving (sanctifying) grace is given at Baptism. The Bible says so.
2. “The hour I first believed” it was actual grace at work, not sanctifying grace. The Catechism says so.
3. Amazing Grace is an approved hymn in the US Edition of the Liturgy of the Hours. By extension, it therefore can be considered suitable for Mass.

If we are to qualify the questionable lines as actual grace, then the lines can be reconciled. If we are to take them to mean sanctifying grace, then absolutely not. The problem is that most Protestant theologies do not classify grace.

Many of these objections are really reaching. Do you scrutinize Catholic hymns as much as you scrutinize protestant hymns?

Yes, to an even worse and severe degree, since Catholic composers ought to know better. Those who object are usually just applying the principles of the Holy See to the music around. Musicam Sacram is a good start.

And I still think “Gather us In” is plain ugly. I hope it dies a quiet death. Nothing beats “Holy God We Praise Thy Name” and my all-time favorite “Let All Mortal Flesh Keep Silence”.

 

[agapewolf]

About changing of the psalms…

it is perfectly fine to change from the psalm of the day to a common psalm …

but one must stay true to those texts. But it is quite allowed to pick a seasonal common psalm.

 

[qui_est_ce]

So why would it be OK to adapt Liturgy to other cultures and not to ours.? Or does all music have to follow Old European tradition? It sounds like you are disagreeing with the bishop’s authority to make decisions for their areas.

my point was that cd was misapplying traditions. European tradition probably has little meaning for Africans.

You can’t be a musician or singer without some amount of ego. It takes confidence and belief in one’s abilities to and sing or play an instrument in public.

Really? My confidence and belief in my abilities rest in the Lord. I can do NOTHING without Him, and I cantor for Him, and not my own edification.

Can you give me ONE expamle of a song you’ve heard at mass that promotes female preists?

I cannot. I only know that the gender neutral protaganists have discussed this and belong to CAN catholicactionnetwork.org/and arrange it.

Why is only the creativity of older composers acceptable?
So in your opinion, no new music should be written, and no one can ever rearrange a song???

What are you talking about?

 

[qui_est_ce]

Are your CD and priest aware that OCP annually publishes
“Respond and Accalim” with psalms for every Sunday and Holy day… and it’s true to the lectionary??? They tend to be musically much simpler, and most of the Gospel Acclamations are chant-like in nature.

This is my point. Our CD does not use this!! She cuts and pastes to make her own point.!

 

[qui_est_ce]

Many well-loved traditional hymns used for Mass are Protestant in origin. Just take “The Church’s One Foundation”, “Come Thou Almighty King” and “Come Thou Long Expected Jesus” are all Protestant, yet they are well-entrenched as theologically orthodox and musically beautiful pieces. Many solid hymns used by the Church are from John, Charles, and Samuel Wesley, for instance.
If we are to qualify the questionable lines as actual grace, then the lines can be reconciled. If we are to take them to mean sanctifying grace, then absolutely not. The problem is that most Protestant theologies do not classify grace.

I grew up in Holy Cross Parish in St. Louis MO, made my Sacraments of Initiation, where Monsignor Helriegel translated many Lutheran German songs into English. Msgr Helriegel was a true lover of God worked very hard to bring all to the truth of the HCC. Msgr Hellriegel was a traditional Catholic who sought common ground without compromising the faith. Please see adoremus.org/11-00-Hellriegel.html

My own father was Lutheran and about to join the HCC but was murdered before he could accomplish this.

 

[VAC]

Really? My confidence and belief in my abilities rest in the Lord. I can do NOTHING without Him, and I cantor for Him, and not my own edification.

Yes, all musical gifts come from him.
But, you still believe in your own ablilties, regardless of where they come from.If you did not, would you be able to sing publicly?

What are you talking about?

You said liturgical music was not the place to be creative.
I was pointing out that at some point, all music had to be written created, and arranged.

 

[porthos11]

I grew up in Holy Cross Parish in St. Louis MO, made my Sacraments of Initiation, where Monsignor Helriegel translated many Lutheran German songs into English. Msgr Helriegel was a true lover of God worked very hard to bring all to the truth of the HCC. Msgr Hellriegel was a traditional Catholic who sought common ground without compromising the faith. Please see adoremus.org/11-00-Hellriegel.html

My own father was Lutheran and about to join the HCC but was murdered before he could accomplish this.

I am deeply sorry to hear of your loss. May your father’s soul rest in peace.

 

[qui_est_ce]

I am deeply sorry to hear of your loss. May your father’s soul rest in peace.

Thank you for your sentiments.

It happened in 1975, but really, my dad is in heaven looking out for me and interceding for me.

I wonder if I would have come to this stage in my faith had not all this occured.

 

[pprimeau1976]

I still like the explanation that it takes courage to sing something so stupid and boring. It just DRAGS on. :yawn: In my opinion the words are stupid and the music is stupid. It’s sappy and boring. It is hard to sing as well.

Yeah, the tune is not the best in the world and neither are the lyrics, but the problem is that these are subjective measures of a songs worthiness. I’m a tenor in our choir and a cantor and can say that this is a difficult song for me. I prefer the song to be played in a higher key. But once again, these are subjective measures. Not everybody has the same vocal range.

The common thread here is that the music is not inspiring, and the words have no meaning. And there is such rich and wonderful stuff out there we could be using.

I highlited the terms that are troublesome and to show you that there will be little done about these situations. The reason is that musical taste is subjective. Until the Vatican stops making suggestions as to the type of music, you will always have this. The best thing a parish can do is to hire a music director who is ecclectic enough to embrace the classics and even some modern pieces.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Snide, aren’t we? Remember the “Glory and Praise” Hymnal that had (No. 15 if I remember correctly) “Great Things Happen When God Mixes With Us” as one of its charming selections? That was also published with permission by the Bishops. My point is that a Bishop has more to do than read every line of every hymn used in his diocese. It has also been said that the people in the pews get the priests that they want and I think the same applies to the music. A lot of the liturgical abuses after Vatican II happened partly because the people in the pews didn’t want to challenge the priest. Yet, specifically because liturgy is the “work of the people,” we do, in fact, have significant responsibility for what goes on. If you find that irritating, I am sorry, but there it is. I’ll take the heat to stand for the Lord and His Church as faithfully as I can. Sometimes that’s better than others. My impression, though, was that this forum is a discussion and so opinions are acceptable–mine included!

The Bishops don’t read the hymns approved in the missalette. They formed a commission of liturgical experts who do this.

They have approved the hymns and they can be used for Mass, without the constant barrage of threads in this forum, condemning the people who lead choirs and folks groups at their parishes, who choose to use these songs.

Jim