Liturgical Music regulations

[VAC]

Please cite any Vatican II or other recent documents that abrogate in any way the 1903 document.

Any of them that include use of the vernacular in mass!!.
You’re aware that we are no longer required to use only Latin???

 

[VAC]

Hello,

This is an attitude I absolutely loathe. That is the attitude that the Church must keep up with the times and become ‘hip’ and ‘with-it’. The Church and the Church’s teachings are beyond time.

Why is it that so many modernists cannot stand the thought of groups of people cherishing the traditional, even to the exclusion to the modern, which is many times much inferior in quality.

OK, maybe I wasn’t clear in my original post. That document stated that Latin was the only language to be used for mass. Do I need to post the quote for you???

To answer your question, it’s because that’s just an OPINION!!! that newer music is inferior. Not fact, not doctrine, but an opinion.
I “can’t stand it” because all it takes is the opinion or whim of whoever is in charge on a particular day in a particular church to decide what music is acceptable or not at mass.

 

[JMJ_coder]

Hello,

OK, maybe I wasn’t clear in my original post. That document stated that Latin was the only language to be used for mass. Do I need to post the quote for you???

No, I have read the document - I know what it says.

You do know that Vatican II didn’t intend for Latin to go the way of the do-do. It says that Latin is continue to be used and that the vernacular could be used in some parts.

Do I need to post the quote for you???

 

[VAC]

Hello,

No, I have read the document - I know what it says.

You do know that Vatican II didn’t intend for Latin to go the way of the do-do. It says that Latin is continue to be used and that the vernacular could be used in some parts.

Do I need to post the quote for you???

Then if you read it carefully, you will see that Vatican 2 did contratdict the 1903 document that says Latin only must be used.

 

[JMJ_coder]

Hello,

Then if you read it carefully, you will see that Vatican 2 did contratdict the 1903 document that says Latin only must be used.

Yeah, I guess we should just throw out everything prior to Vatican II since it was Latin only and start from scratch, like all the modernist want.

Sacrosanctum Concilium:

1. 1. Particular law remaining in force, the use of the Latin language is to be preserved in the Latin rites.
2. Nevertheless steps should be taken so that the faithful may also be able to say or to sing together in Latin those parts of the Ordinary of the Mass which pertain to them.
3. 1. In accordance with the centuries-old tradition of the Latin rite, the Latin language is to be retained by clerics in the divine office. But in individual cases the ordinary has the power of granting the use of a vernacular translation to those clerics for whom the use of Latin constitutes a grave obstacle to their praying the office properly.

Why do most Catholic laymen not know the Ordinary of the Mass in Latin? Why do priests not say the Liturgy of the Hours in Latin? Why is the most Latin you will get at an average Catholic parish is the Sanctus and Agnus Dei during Lent?

 

[VAC]

Sacrosanctum Concilium:

1. 1. Particular law remaining in force, the use of the Latin language is to be preserved in the Latin rites.

 

[JMJ_coder]

Hello,

Perserved, not played to the exclusion of all else

Totally excluding the vernacular would indeed be a faithful reading of this paragraph. For when the Fathers of the Council wrote in regards to the vernacular, it was only if the competent authority thought it would be beneficial, then the vernacular could be introduced. The vernacular was not mandated as a must by the Council.

Now what would be an unfaithful reading of this paragraph? The one that has become the de facto standard - totally excluding Latin from Catholicism.

Which pertain to them?

The parts of the Ordinary of the Mass that the Congregation say. For instance (from the Ordo Missae Cum Populo - 1975 edition):

Gloria:

Gloria in excelsis Deo et in terra pax hominibus bonae voluntatis…

Responses:

V. Verbum Dei
R. Deo gratias.

V. Dominus vobiscum.
R. Et cum spiritu tuo.

Creed:

Credo in unum Deum, Patrem omnipotentem, factorem caeli et terra, visibilium omnium et invisibilium…

Pre-Anaphora:

V. Sursum corda.
R. Habemus ad Dominum

V. Gratias agamus Domino Deo nostro.
R. Dignum et iustum est.

Sanctus:

Sanctus, sanctus, sanctus, Dominus Deus Sabaoth…

Memorial Acclamation:

Mortem tua annuntiamus, Domine, et tuam resurrectionem confitemur, donec venias.

Lord’s Prayer:

Pater noster, qui es in caelis…

Agnus Dei:

Agnus Dei, qui tollis peccata mundi…

Dismissal:

V. Ite, missa est.
R. Deo gratias.

This isn’t everything, but it is a large part of it.

They’ve never heard them in their lifetimes. I’d never heard them either until I was asked to use the Latin Chant mass parts for Advent about 2 years ago. Then at Lent, because of someone’s OPINION, we were told to take it out of the childern’s mass.(some parents complained that they wanted their kids to learn English, not Latin) Enter a new priest whose OPINION had us put it back in for the following Advent. He’s still our priest, so most likely, unless his opinion changes, we’ll play it again for Advent this year…

Yes, and the question to ask is why haven’t they heard them? Why has this been lost on this generation?

I’m not sure I’ve heard it in English.

Then you have never heard it at all? You can’t hardly find it in Latin.

In English, the official English version - complete - is $145 for the four volume set. Add $24 if you want leather covers and $50 if you need large print. There are also many smaller versions (not all of the Hours) for less.

Compare to the Latin. The official Latin version - complete - is $85.30 dollars for each volume (four of them). That is $341.20 for the complete set. Add $491.60 if you want leather covers (your read that right $491.60!). I have seen a cheaper version, but it only covers Sunday and a couple parts of for other days.

Remember, priests don’t make a lot of money. And Religious Priests take a vow of poverty. How can they come up with such funds. It really is a sad situation.

Don’t know, but when we first used the Latin mass parts I inculded the memorial acclamation. When it was reinstated, I was told to leave it out…in someone’s OPINION it was too much Latin for the children’s mass.

Yeah, it unfortunately coincides with a general decline in the education and expectations of today’s society.

 

[JMJ_coder]

Hello,

I think the big problem with trying to find out what is appropriate music for the Liturgy has to do with the guidelines currently given to determine it. They all have one or more subjective criteria - usually something like ‘keeping to the sacred nature of the Mass’. What does that mean. One person could take that as meaning only Gregorian Chant. Another might think that heavy metal is worthy of the Mass. This criteria is based on opinions, and opinions vary - oftentimes drastically.

Based on such subjective criteria, only two possible solutions come to mind. One, change the criteria to include only objective criteria. Two, come up with a comprehensive list of hymns that are approved or disapproved.

 

[Marian_Carroll]

GENERAL REMINDER: The topic of this thread is **Liturgical Music Regulations. **Those having other issues to discuss should join an already ongoing thread or initiate one in the appropriate forum.

Your cooperation in keeping the thread on track is appreciated.

 

[VAC]

Hello,

Based on such subjective criteria, only two possible solutions come to mind. One, change the criteria to include only objective criteria. Two, come up with a comprehensive list of hymns that are approved or disapproved.

This is what the OP was looking for and asking for, which would be more effective than 9 pages of opinion, or the opinion of the few who have our priests ear.

As to the LOTH, your read right, I’ve never heard it in English either, and I’m sure I’m not alone.

Totally excluding the vernacular would indeed be a faithful reading of this paragraph. For when the Fathers of the Council wrote in regards to the vernacular, it was only if the competent authority thought it would be beneficial, then the vernacular could be introduced. The vernacular was not mandated as a must by the Council.

Now what would be an unfaithful reading of this paragraph? The one that has become the de facto standard - totally excluding Latin from Catholicism.

This is a unique interpretation that I’ve never heard, never seen put in action, and I cannot imagine how you arrived at it… Clearer wording and more subjective guidelines of these documents would help limit the variety of interpretations

 

[Jane_K]

The Mass of Vatican II

Excellent article!! I’ve e-mailed it on to several friends! :clapping:

 

[JMJ_coder]

Hello,

This is what the OP was looking for and asking for, which would be more effective than 9 pages of opinion, or the opinion of the few who have our priests ear.

Lacking said list, we are only left with those opinions - unfortunately.

This is a unique interpretation that I’ve never heard, never seen put in action, and I cannot imagine how you arrived at it…

We could discuss this, but it is outside the scope of this thread.

Clearer wording and more subjective guidelines of these documents would help limit the variety of interpretations

I think you mean objective guidelines. The last thing we need is more subjective guidelines.

 

[smessner]

Hello,

Just like the Catholic Church’s moral and doctrinal assertions are ad nauseum arguments (especially to those who disagree ).

I assure I am not alone in my stance.

I already cited the lyrics. The line that is heretical is: How precious did that grace appear, The hour I first believ’d!

It is NOT when we first believe that we obtain sanctifying grace, but at the moment of Baptism!

Actually, it can be read both ways. One way is heretical. The other way is so ambiguous that it should be excluded so as to not cause confusion.

Either way, it has no place in a Catholic Liturgy.

.

Hello there,
I’m just catching up on a few posts so perhaps this is addressed in a subsequent post.
If I understand your objection, it is that if one interprets the lines “how precious did that grace appear the hour I first believed” to mean precious grace suddenly appeared when I first believed, that is heresy. Right? This is clearly out of place in Catholic worship of any kind.

I had never thought of that interpretation. I suppose I had always interpreted it to mean that when I first believed, I realized how precious God’s grace is. I guess I read it as implying “how precious did that grace appear (TO ME)…”

 

[VAC]

Hello,
Lacking said list, we are only left with those opinions - unfortunately.

Look at this, we finally agreed on something.

 

[Image_of_God]

Would Ave Maria be able to link with the Gregorian Chant?

Because I like that song.

 

[dranzal]

Hello,

Lacking said list, we are only left with those opinions - unfortunately.

We could discuss this, but it is outside the scope of this thread.

I think you mean objective guidelines. The last thing we need is more subjective guidelines.

It would be very helpful (at least in our country where we are more inclined to do what we like than follow subjective authority) if the powers that be either in Rome or at least on a national level did develop some list of “Songs never to be used” and “Officially approved songs”.

 

[agapewolf]

It would be very helpful (at least in our country where we are more inclined to do what we like than follow subjective authority) if the powers that be either in Rome or at least on a national level did develop some list of “Songs never to be used” and “Officially approved songs”.

I disagree with this…imposing more restrictions and rules. Is it because you think that those songs would be the one you like and rid of the ones you don’t? What if they did do that and it went the oppositve way that you liked?

Having a list of officially approved songs would make songwriting obsolete. How dare anyone say that God isn’t inspiriing people in 2007 to write music for church (even in the style that you like). And you know there would not be a current committee to handle new songs…and if there was, it wouldn’t be efficient.

Having a list of “banned” songs would promote nothing more than misunderstanding…the church would then be accused of judging the composer, or hating the song itself, (rather than simply just a restriction for mass). The songs available are so exhaustive that they couldnt keep up with it…we would hear “well, its not on the banned list so I can play it”

 

[dranzal]

I disagree with this…imposing more restrictions and rules. Is it because you think that those songs would be the one you like and rid of the ones you don’t? What if they did do that and it went the oppositve way that you liked?

That’s my point. It isn’t and shouldn’t be about my opinion. It should only be about filling the role of music minister to the absolute best of our ability. That would, by definition, mean following any and all guidelines that they may come up with.

Having a list of officially approved songs would make songwriting obsolete. How dare anyone say that God isn’t inspiriing people in 2007 to write music for church (even in the style that you like). And you know there would not be a current committee to handle new songs…and if there was, it wouldn’t be efficient.

I’m saying it would be nice if there was a person or committee whose responsibilities would include checking music (new and old) for things like doctrinal errors. If the Church were to decide to have a “running list” of approved and banned songs, regardless of my opinion of the list, it would eliminate some of these problems.

Having a list of “banned” songs would promote nothing more than misunderstanding…the church would then be accused of judging the composer, or hating the song itself, (rather than simply just a restriction for mass).

Again, I’m not suggesting a list based on average “Joe Catholic” opinions, but on a more theological basis.

The songs available are so exhaustive that they couldnt keep up with it…we would hear “well, its not on the banned list so I can play it”

In the absence of a “banned list” that is exactly what is happening. Have you seen the “weird songs at Mass” thread? Some songs simply are not Liturgical by their very nature. Some songs that seem “biblical” are far from it. You are correct. With such an exhaustive supply of hymns that have been sung for some time, it seems deliberate for CDs to go out of their way to choose something questionable. Either you have experienced this and know what I mean or you have not.

 

[pprimeau1976]

Would Ave Maria be able to link with the Gregorian Chant?

Because I like that song.

Depends on the version. I think all versions would be allowed. Some of the ones I love are the Bach/Gounod, and Franz Biebel versions. The Biebel version is actually the Angelus. The Schubert one is okay, I’ve heard it so much that it has grown old.

Biebel’s version is probably more Gregorian than all of them because the parts of the Angelus (the parts that are not the Hail Mary) are sung in a Gregorian style.

 

[Sarabande]

Depends on the version. I think all versions would be allowed. Some of the ones I love are the Bach/Gounod, and Franz Biebel versions. The Biebel version is actually the Angelus. The Schubert one is okay, I’ve heard it so much that it has grown old.

Biebel’s version is probably more Gregorian than all of them because the parts of the Angelus (the parts that are not the Hail Mary) are sung in a Gregorian style.

I LOVE Biebel’s “Ave Maria”!!! Did I say that I LOVED the Biebel “Ave Maria”? It’s so beautiful for all male choir. It’s one of my favorites as well.

There are literally tons of settings for the “Ave Maria”. The choral ones are some of my favorites. Brukner and Rachmaninoff also had some beautiful ones. I’ve heard so many absolutely beautiful settings, though, that I can’t remember the composers’ names off hand.

As pprimeau1976 mentioned, the Schubert is lovely, but I’ve sung it for one too many weddings and funerals. The other problem with that one is that most people don’t realize that you have to sing through two verses of that version to sing the entire Hail Mary prayer, so you always hear it done “half-way”. I have seen a different setting of it to include the whole prayer in one verse, but most is set in two verses. The original setting was in German, set to a prayer to Mary, but not the actual “Hail Mary”. It was a religious song, but actually part of Schubert’s lieder which would be sung in recitals. I don’t know when it was set to the Latin text, but it was originally German. I personally prefer it in German and hearing it in recital rather than in Church any more.

One of my favorite “solo” settings is by Gabriel Faure. It’s so spiritually ethereal. It can be sung by one voice or by a group of voices. When it’s sung by a group of voices, it’s perfect for a boy choir.