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Lepanto
Guest
Are they the same? If not, what are their differences?
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aloysiusg
Guest
Speaking simply, a hymn is a song in praise of God. A song, at least one used at mass, might just be one the sings of some nice Christian themes, but isn’t necessarily a praise of our Lord. At what point is a song a hymn may be subject to debate.
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puzzleannie
Guest
IMO if it is written after 1959 it is a song, not a hymn (if it appears in Glory and Praise, even that word is a stretch but that book should NOT be called hymnal. Adoremus is a hymnal, even Worship is hymnal).
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jkarp
Guest
The first response above is a great response, describing at its most basic exactly what the difference is.
Musically speaking, a traditional hymn is typically identified through the use of a simple 4-part homophonic melody & harmony. Homophony means everyone is singing the same words at the same time but with different pitches to produce harmony. A song is (generally) a single melody with an accompaniment. Everyone sings the same words and same pitches at the same time while the instruments play a different accompaniment. A chant (or plainsong) is a single melody with no accompaniment; everyone sings the same words and pitches at the same time.
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aloysiusg
Guest
jkarp -I like those distinctions, but please clarify for me - are all hymns in four-part harmony? Similarly, don’t some songs have four-part harmony?
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jkarp
Guest
No, the things I said are certainly not hard and fast rules by any means but they are how musicians typically view things. The hymns origins are traced back to the psalmody of King David with the tradition carried on into the Medieval music that was codified by Pope St. Gregory as Gregorian Chant. The “traditional” hymn didn’t really take its current form until the 1600’s during the Baroque period.
Yes, many songs have some form of harmony but there are actually rules for 4-part homophonic harmony that “traditional” hymns will follow; the true master at this sort of part writing was J.S. Bach. Most more modern songs don’t necessarily follow these rules.
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Sarabande
Guest
jkarp gave nice concise answers. For further elaborations and explanations, I got these from the wikipedia, and as we know it is not always reliable, but it has the basics. The explanation is not just for Catholic hymnody. There is an interesting tidbit regarding the difference between hymns and Gospel songs - Gospel songs have refrains and hymns don’t.
Hymn
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hymn
Song
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Song
As someone else mentioned, though, the difference between a sacred hymn or motet and religious song draws a fine and sometime subjective line. For me, I would consider something like Faure’s “En Priere” as a religious song - even more like a religious art song - and not a hymn. This is because although it is a prayer it doesn’t have much to do for within a mass. His “Pie Jesu” and his “Ave Maria” would be hymns - especially his “Ave Maria” as it was composed to be either sung by one voice or a group of voices (usually boy choirs or female choir) in unison. Most settings of a “Panis Angelicus” would be a hymn.
Gounod’s famous “O Divine Redeemer” is a religious song and not a sacred hymn for mass because of how it is written stylistically.
BUT there are many religious choral music which are neccesarily considered traditional “hymns”, but more of sacred motets. The sacred music from the Rennaisance were well-known for their motets. Much of Tallis would be considered as motets. Further into history, Mozart’s “Ave Verum Corpus” would also be considered a sacred choral motet.
Bach’s hymns, though, really are “hymns” in terms of structure. And the subject is usually scriptural.
Anyway, that’s some of my (name removed by moderator)ut.
Hymn
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hymn
Song
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Song
As someone else mentioned, though, the difference between a sacred hymn or motet and religious song draws a fine and sometime subjective line. For me, I would consider something like Faure’s “En Priere” as a religious song - even more like a religious art song - and not a hymn. This is because although it is a prayer it doesn’t have much to do for within a mass. His “Pie Jesu” and his “Ave Maria” would be hymns - especially his “Ave Maria” as it was composed to be either sung by one voice or a group of voices (usually boy choirs or female choir) in unison. Most settings of a “Panis Angelicus” would be a hymn.
Gounod’s famous “O Divine Redeemer” is a religious song and not a sacred hymn for mass because of how it is written stylistically.
BUT there are many religious choral music which are neccesarily considered traditional “hymns”, but more of sacred motets. The sacred music from the Rennaisance were well-known for their motets. Much of Tallis would be considered as motets. Further into history, Mozart’s “Ave Verum Corpus” would also be considered a sacred choral motet.
Bach’s hymns, though, really are “hymns” in terms of structure. And the subject is usually scriptural.
Anyway, that’s some of my (name removed by moderator)ut.
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Brendan
Guest
Hymn - A religious song of honor and praise addressed to God or the Saints. Hymns appointed for liturigical use are mainly taken from Scripture or based on some mystery of the Church. All hymns used in the liturgy must be approved by an ecclesiastical authority
(Etym, Latin, Hymnus, song of praise)
Modern Catholic Dictionary
John A. Hardon, SJ
Professor of Dogmatic Theology
West Baden College
Nihil Obstat: William B Smith, S.T.D
Imprimatur: +Joseph T. O’Keefe, V.G. New York
© 1999
ISBN 0-9672989-2-x
(Etym, Latin, Hymnus, song of praise)
Modern Catholic Dictionary
John A. Hardon, SJ
Professor of Dogmatic Theology
West Baden College
Nihil Obstat: William B Smith, S.T.D
Imprimatur: +Joseph T. O’Keefe, V.G. New York
© 1999
ISBN 0-9672989-2-x
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ethelzguy
Guest
How funny. The laity can arbitrarily choose a date to declare that anything introduced after that date is not worthy of being called a hymn?
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aloysiusg
Guest
Cool - can I choose 1971 then? That way I can still use the songs (wait, I mean hymns) from the “Godspell” soundtrack!!How funny. The laity can arbitrarily choose a date to declare that anything introduced after that date is not worthy of being called a hymn?
Relax everyone, I am SOOOO kidding.
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mercygate
Guest
What he said.
I would add that a hymn (small H) should not be based on secular musical models (although this can be a grey area). What I mean is that a song like “Mother of Christ” or “Our Lady of Knock” – if you take away the words – are indistinguishable from Irish parlor songs of the late 19th and early 20th Century.
Moreover, a hymn for congregational singing should not (generally) contain radical metrical changes or changes of key. A song like “I Have Loved You with an Everlasting Love” is singable only by a professional (preferably anywhere but in a church, and specifically the one I am in at the moment).
Something like Dan Schutte’s “Glory in the Cross” (written five minutes ago) qualifies as a hymn.
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pnewton
Guest
I remember hymns with refrains (O Sacrament Most Holy, e.g.).
I think the difference often reflects more on the one making the definition than any objective difference. Does having four-part harmony make a hymn? Then add One Day at a Time and pretty much every Statler Brother song. Does an arbitrary date make a hymn? Then no one can ever write a hymn, but must wait for their song to become a hymn later.
I think a practical definition is hymns are the oldies I like. Religious songs are the modern attempts at songs I dislike. At least this definition acknowledges the subjective element inherent in this type of catelogging.
I think the difference often reflects more on the one making the definition than any objective difference. Does having four-part harmony make a hymn? Then add One Day at a Time and pretty much every Statler Brother song. Does an arbitrary date make a hymn? Then no one can ever write a hymn, but must wait for their song to become a hymn later.
I think a practical definition is hymns are the oldies I like. Religious songs are the modern attempts at songs I dislike. At least this definition acknowledges the subjective element inherent in this type of catelogging.
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mercygate
Guest
I think you’re onto something there.
To some extent the “songs” we call “hymns” are those that have had stood the test of time. One reason people prefer the “oldies” is that the survivors tend to be the best “songs”.
As for the Statler Brothers, they put together one of the very best collections of hymns on CD. Trying to find it to post a link, I see they have several albums of hymns of the Gospel variety, but the one DH has is a collection of classics sung by such choirs as Kings College Chapel Choir.
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puzzleannie
Guest
only if the begin with IMO, not claiming any church authority or musical abilityHow funny. The laity can arbitrarily choose a date to declare that anything introduced after that date is not worthy of being called a hymn?
would ask those who have given such detailed, great answers to explain further
anthem
recessional
processional
polyphony
(debate vs plainchant for instance)
and their place in liturgical music
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mercygate
Guest
Choral set piece, without congregational participation, often quite elaborate, sung (most often) during the Offertory. Anthems may be sung for Communion also.
Hymn sung or music played as the Celebrant and servers leave the altar at the conclusion of the Mass.
Hymn sung or music played as the Celebrant and servers approach the altar at the beginning of Mass
(debate vs plainchant for instance) Music sung in parts. “Polyphony” in the discussions versus plainsong is usually from the Renaissance period and sung a capella. Often lives in peace and harmony with Gregorian Chant.
You left out the Gradual – the chant or hymn sung during the procession and censing of the Gospel.
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brotherhrolf
Guest
Personally, I would say 1965 but, then, I am a few years younger than Annie. And, oh yes, I have heard Prepare Ye the Way of the Lord from Godspell used as an entrance hymn. Now is that a hymn or a song?How funny. The laity can arbitrarily choose a date to declare that anything introduced after that date is not worthy of being called a hymn?
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ethelzguy
Guest
This is all quite fascinating…so, is it the music or the words that matter? Is it Church doctrine or personal opinions?Personally, I would say 1965 but, then, I am a few years younger than Annie. And, oh yes, I have heard Prepare Ye the Way of the Lord from Godspell used as an entrance hymn. Now is that a hymn or a song?
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mercygate
Guest
Actually it is both. Even the documents of the Second Vatican Council direct that music should befit the dignity of the Mass and that Gregiorian Chant and polyphony should be given pride of place in the Liturgy.This is all quite fascinating…so, is it the music or the words that matter? Is it Church doctrine or personal opinions?
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brotherhrolf
Guest
Indeed and a Broadway song has no right being the entrance processional hymn simply because the words are OK. Indeed, is there not a setting of Climb any Mountain from the Sound of Music which is hymn like?
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CarrieH
Guest
On a lighter note, here’s an amusing explanation:
thehymnsociety.org/bbs/index.cgi?noframes;read=660
thehymnsociety.org/bbs/index.cgi?noframes;read=660
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