Liturgical Music

[Hudsonite]

We have a new liturgist who put out a flyer in our bulletin and this is what is basically says:

Vatican II has called for full active participation in the Mass and sacraments. If the congreagation is not singing along with the hymns, there is something wrong.
He goes on to speak about the different types of music ie: happy, sad, bouncy and loud. than to a thornier issue- what kind of music can be liturgical? What about contemporary christian music songs that are not in our hymnals? These can give us insight to God and express themes of the Mass and liturgical seasons. The key is to use them sparingly and in the proper places. These places are the prelude, as a meditation after the communion hymn, in place of a hymn at offertory/presentation of the gifts and as a postlude after the closing hymn.

Vatican II calls us to a new way of thinking about and seeing the world- it’s not a case of black and white, it’s both. and Remember the word Catholic comes from the Greek whick means a unity of diversities.END

I have a few questions that I hope viewers can help me with.

There are 2 words in latin for active as I understand it actuoso and activitas, one meaning active from the heart and soul and one meaning physical. V II meant from the heart and soul…correct?

Can we really replace or add in songs where he says we can? He’s talking about songs like from Rich Mullins, Michael Talbott etc.
I thought all music had to be approved by the Bishops.

I thought Catholic meant universal.

 

[Deacon_Ed]

I’m going to repond as both a deacon and a director of music for my parish…

What Vatican II call for was an “active participation” that was like that of the Eastern Catholic Churches – both mental and physical. This is, in fact, part of why there are different postures and actions at Mass. We stand, we sit, we kneel, we process, when incense is used we smell it, we voice our responses – all of these postures are part of the early Churches understanding that we do not just use our minds to worship God, but that we get physically involved.

With that in mind, music is used to help us “raise our hearts and minds to God in prayer.” Music does stir the senses, and can be happy or sad. Yet stimulating emotions is not, directly, part of what the musical setting is to do. It should be a byproduct of the actual song itself, the lyrics and the melody.

The only music the bishops must approve are Mass settings: the Lord’s Prayer, the Creed, the Psalms, etc. The traditional four hymns (entrance procession, offertory, communion and recessional) do not need to be approved by the bishop. They should, however, be liturgically appropriate. That is, all music that is chosen should address its function in the liturgy of helping the congregation to pray. If it is distracting, then it fails and should not be used.

There is nothing wrong with scheduling music by John Michael Talbot (I used his setting of the Magnificat recently). A good pastoral musician knows the people in the congregation, what they can and cannot sing; knows the musicians and their level of skill, and schedules accordingly – keeping in mind, of course, the readings at Mass and, perhaps, tying the songs to the readings or the season.

To address your last question, the word “catholic” comes from the Greek and its first usages was in the writings of St. Ignatius of Antioch where he used the term katholikE ekklEsia (the capital “E” represents Eta and not epislon). The term *katholicos *(the root word of katholikE) means “general, generic, universal.”

I hope this helps…

Deacon Ed

 

[moedom]

Being a former director myself I could not agree more with Deacon Ed. I have been to churches that have traditional music sung and it can be done irreverently also. For some of these people it was more of a showmanship than a prayer. Every one patting themselves on the back as if they had performed a concert. For a while the seats where facing the congregation instead of the altar and this bothered me even more but someone must of clued in because now they are facing the correct way. The choir that we have at the other church I attend is quite different. I don’t know if this is correct but you can almost sense a certain spirit in the air. When the music is done properly and it brings you to focus on Christ and the majesty of His Church. It also helps to have one of the biggest pipe organ on the east side of Montreal.

Now as for JMT he is one of my favorites. The only reason I could see objecting to not having his music in the mass would be because of taste or a strong dislike of guitars. I would say most of his songs are right on target and great to use in the mass, One song that could be wrong to use though would be “One Faith” from the album Brother to Brother, which has what I believe to be an error in it. A lot of people would probably think much of it; it has to do with the keys. Oh well, I guess no one is perfect in this world. Now as far as any new songs that I would introduce would be bounced off people who are grounded in the Catholic faith and also a priest. And last but not least I would pray that the Holy Spirit would guide me with the use of that song.

Moe

 

[geocajun]

*CCC-1158 The harmony of signs (song, music, words, and actions) is all the more expressive and fruitful when expressed in the cultural richness of the People of God who celebrate.25 Hence “religious singing by the faithful is to be intelligently fostered so that in devotions and sacred exercises as well as in liturgical services,” in conformity with the Church’s norms, “the voices of the faithful may be heard.” But "the texts intended to be sung must always be in conformity with Catholic doctrine. Indeed they should be drawn chiefly from the Sacred Scripture and from liturgical sources."26 *

 

[tom.wineman]

This pie in the sky liturgy is not reality.
**There are just not singers and arm wavers period.

**
The old saying is still true.
**Never try to teach a pig a sing. It wastes your **
time and annoys the hell out of the pig.

---

**Why don’t these “progressives” come down off their pedestals ****and find out what the folks in the pews want to sing and ****if they want excessive singing. For instance these entrance **and exit hymns are not hymns at all but are insipid
stroll in and stroll out songs which sound like people
are singing in their sleep.

---

**Many Masses I’ve been to are make believe joy and pretended **participation to fit this enforced mold. You can feel the phoniness.

 

[Hudsonite]

Deacon Ed:

I’m going to repond as both a deacon and a director of music for my parish…

What Vatican II call for was an “active participation” that was like that of the Eastern Catholic Churches – both mental and physical. This is, in fact, part of why there are different postures and actions at Mass. We stand, we sit, we kneel, we process, when incense is used we smell it, we voice our responses – all of these postures are part of the early Churches understanding that we do not just use our minds to worship God, but that we get physically involved.

With that in mind, music is used to help us “raise our hearts and minds to God in prayer.” Music does stir the senses, and can be happy or sad. Yet stimulating emotions is not, directly, part of what the musical setting is to do. It should be a byproduct of the actual song itself, the lyrics and the melody.

The only music the bishops must approve are Mass settings: the Lord’s Prayer, the Creed, the Psalms, etc. The traditional four hymns (entrance procession, offertory, communion and recessional) do not need to be approved by the bishop. They should, however, be liturgically appropriate. That is, all music that is chosen should address its function in the liturgy of helping the congregation to pray. If it is distracting, then it fails and should not be used.

There is nothing wrong with scheduling music by John Michael Talbot (I used his setting of the Magnificat recently). A good pastoral musician knows the people in the congregation, what they can and cannot sing; knows the musicians and their level of skill, and schedules accordingly – keeping in mind, of course, the readings at Mass and, perhaps, tying the songs to the readings or the season.

To address your last question, the word “catholic” comes from the Greek and its first usages was in the writings of St. Ignatius of Antioch where he used the term katholikE ekklEsia (the capital “E” represents Eta and not epislon). The term *katholicos *(the root word of katholikE) means “general, generic, universal.”

I hope this helps…

Deacon Ed

Thank you for your (name removed by moderator)ut, but I do have questions on this.
Where do I find this? I have looked in the GIRM and all it really says about music is that Gregorian chant holds prid of place…
(What is polyphony) and that we should know how to sing together some parts in latin… I The VII section on sacred music doen’t state where you can music other than that approved by Bishops either. So where is this that says we can (name removed by moderator)ut other music in prelude, after communion hymn at presentation and as postlude after the closing hymn?

 

[kmktexas]

What about contemporary christian music songs that are not in our hymnals? These can give us insight to God and express themes of the Mass and liturgical seasons. The key is to use them sparingly and in the proper places.

I agree. And there are lots of places for this kind of music and usually it is in settings that are not Mass. There is a lot of great contemporary Christian music that I love. I tune my radio and hum/sing along. This music brings me closer to God. That does not mean that I ever want to hear those songs at Mass.

He is also right that there is something wrong. Why should the congregation be forced to try to learn new songs with questionable theological messages each week? People sing what they are comfortable with (especially the youth). Consistent, repetitive use of familiar hymns will probably get more active participation. It may not feed the creative side of the music minister (no offence to Deacon Ed or Moedom) but if the goal is active participation, novelty won’t get you there.

 

[Hudsonite]

kmktexas:

I agree. And there are lots of places for this kind of music and usually it is in settings that are not Mass. There is a lot of great contemporary Christian music that I love. I tune my radio and hum/sing along. This music brings me closer to God. That does not mean that I ever want to hear those songs at Mass.

He is also right that there is something wrong. Why should the congregation be forced to try to learn new songs with questionable theological messages each week? People sing what they are comfortable with (especially the youth). Consistent, repetitive use of familiar hymns will probably get more active participation. It may not feed the creative side of the music minister (no offence to Deacon Ed or Moedom) but if the goal is active participation, novelty won’t get you there.

I agree that music has it’s place. I don’t listen to Hymnals at home, i listen to christian “rock” probrably 99% of the time. When I go to Mass I don’t need to that type of music. I need to be able to meditate and focus on the Mass. If during communion the music is this great sing-a-long…how do I pray when I love that song and i want to sing. I know that christian music is also a form of prayer but…
What our music minister is wanting to do is to have this rock music in our parish. His letter is trying to pasify both sides of the fence. My question still stands…Where do I find this information?

 

[Deacon_Ed]

Ah, the ever present question of where do I find information about music and the Liturgy. I wish there were an easy answer, but there isn’t. Perhaps the first place I’d look for a decent understanding of the issues is in Cardinal Ratzinger’s book Spirit of the Liturgy. Fortunately, the section on music is available online at Adoremus. For general guidance and information about music and the Liturgy, Pope Pius XII wrote an entire encyclical called Musicae Sacrae*. *However, this deals more with the Tridentine Mass than the Mass that comes to us from the Second Vatican Council. For that we need to turn to the GIRM. For the Entrance Procession we have this statement:

1. The singing at this time is done either alternately by the choir and the people or in a similar way by the cantor and the people, or entirely by the people, or by the choir alone. In the dioceses of the United States of America there are four options for the Entrance Chant: (1) the antiphon from the Roman Missal or the Psalm from the Roman Gradual as set to music there or in another musical setting; (2) the seasonal antiphon and Psalm of the Simple Gradual; (3) a song from another collection of psalms and antiphons, approved by the Conference of Bishops or the Diocesan Bishop, including psalms arranged in responsorial or metrical forms; (4) a suitable liturgical song similarly approved by the Conference of Bishops or the Diocesan Bishop.

If there is no singing at the entrance, the antiphon in the Missal is recited either by the faithful, or by some of them, or by a lector; otherwise, it is recited by the priest himself, who may even adapt it as an introductory explanation (cf. above, no. 31).

Clearly an entrance antiphon is required, and this requirement is normally satisfied using option 3 with the interpretation of “antiphon” being quite broad.

During the offertory procession it is also fitting to have a song:

1. The procession bringing the gifts is accompanied by the Offertory chant (cf. above, no. 37b), which continues at least until the gifts have been placed on the altar. The norms on the manner of singing are the same as for the Entrance chant (cf. above, no. 48). Singing may always accompany the rite at the offertory, even when there is no procession with the gifts.

continued in next post…

 

[Deacon_Ed]

Cardinal Ratzinger has explained the reason for singing in worship, and it’s clear that this applies most appropriately after communion when, in union with our brothers and sisters, we join our voices together to praise God for the wonderful gift of His Son. Again from the GIRM:

1. In the dioceses of the United States of America there are four options for the Communion chant: (1) the antiphon from the Roman Missal or the Psalm from the *Roman Gradual *as set to music there or in another musical setting; (2) the seasonal antiphon and Psalm of the Simple Gradual; (3) a song from another collection of psalms and antiphons, approved by the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops or the Diocesan Bishop, including psalms arranged in responsorial or metrical forms; (4) a suitable liturgical song chosen in accordance with no. 86 above. This is sung either by the choir alone or by the choir or cantor with the people.
   If there is no singing, however, the Communion antiphon found in the Missal may be recited either by the faithful, or by some of them, or by a lector. Otherwise the priest himself says it after he has received Communion and before he distributes Communion to the faithful.
2. When the distribution of Communion is finished, as circumstances suggest, the priest and faithful spend some time praying privately. If desired, a psalm or other canticle of praise or a hymn may also be sung by the entire congregation.

There is no specification in the GIRM of a recessional hymn, but this has been a tradition (note the lower case “t”) in the United States since the implementation of the Mass of Paul VI.

Deacon Ed

 

[mercygate]

Hudsonite:

.

Vatican II calls us to a new way of thinking about and seeing the world- it’s not a case of black and white, it’s both.

Since Vatican II, liturgical music is not a case of black and white, nor, unfortunately, is it often a case of Palestrina . . .:crying:

 

[rwoehmke]

Hudsonite:

I agree that music has it’s place. I don’t listen to Hymnals at home, i listen to christian “rock” probrably 99% of the time. When I go to Mass I don’t need to that type of music. I need to be able to meditate and focus on the Mass. If during communion the music is this great sing-a-long…how do I pray when I love that song and i want to sing. I know that christian music is also a form of prayer but…
What our music minister is wanting to do is to have this rock music in our parish. His letter is trying to pasify both sides of the fence. My question still stands…Where do I find this information?

I read this same document by our new liturgist and I had the impression that what I read was to say that he would cater neither to the very traditional or the progressives who wanted rock style music. I am hoping that by sticking with reverent, singable hymns he will move us away from some of our musicians who seem dead set on giving a performance. Hi Helen!

 

[Hudsonite]

rwoehmke:

I read this same document by our new liturgist and I had the impression that what I read was to say that he would cater neither to the very traditional or the progressives who wanted rock style music. I am hoping that by sticking with reverent, singable hymns he will move us away from some of our musicians who seem dead set on giving a performance. Hi Helen!

I am praying that between our new liturgist and our youth minister, that we would be able to come together as a parish, as brothers and sisters. I hate when I hear people say “us” or “them” we should all be one.
I suppose every one who read that got something different out of it ie: someone felt he was making fun of the Mary devotional thing.
I just hope and pray that we can come here and praise and worship in unity and peace.
I don’t really care for the performances either or the selling of thier CD’s after thier performance. I do like the band though.

 

[moedom]

kmktexas:

I agree. And there are lots of places for this kind of music and usually it is in settings that are not Mass. There is a lot of great contemporary Christian music that I love. I tune my radio and hum/sing along. This music brings me closer to God. That does not mean that I ever want to hear those songs at Mass.

He is also right that there is something wrong. Why should the congregation be forced to try to learn new songs with questionable theological messages each week? People sing what they are comfortable with (especially the youth). Consistent, repetitive use of familiar hymns will probably get more active participation. It may not feed the creative side of the music minister (no offence to Deacon Ed or Moedom) but if the goal is active participation, novelty won’t get you there.

 

[hearye]

I have a couple questions for those who dislike new music at mass:

1. When were the songs that you like to hear at mass written?
2. Why do you like these songs?
3. Are there any new songs that would be acceptable to you? Are they ok if they have a scriptural reference in them–ie: is it the tempo, the rhythem or the words that bother you?

God bless us all for trying to understand eachother better.

 

[moedom]

Oops, I got trigger happy. Anyway I agree with kmktexas about using to many new songs. It can stifle the spirit of the congregation singing. I was very fortunate that we had very strong congregation as far as voices were concerned and since we were a summer destination area we would get a good influx of people and I’m not sure why but it seemed like the sound would be excellent.

 

[Hudsonite]

hearye:

I have a couple questions for those who dislike new music at mass:

1. When were the songs that you like to hear at mass written?
2. Why do you like these songs?
3. Are there any new songs that would be acceptable to you? Are they ok if they have a scriptural reference in them–ie: is it the tempo, the rhythem or the words that bother you?

God bless us all for trying to understand eachother better.

My understanding is that the first hymns came in or about the 4th century by St. Ambrose.

The songs I don’t like are the ones that make me God: I am the bread of life, Love one another as I have loved you, I have cared for you, bear one anothers burdens. I mean who’s praying to who here?
And is the Lords return to be confined to our doing if his will? St. John didn’t think so. Songs like be not afraid and you are mine fit into this catagory as well.

I feel that praise and worship should praises: You are my God, I praise you, I love you, I am your servant etc. So I guess at most it’s the words I don’t like. I like many different kinds of music! I think hymns should be taken seriously. I love singing and I love listening to them. I think hyms are important and Catholics should start treating them more seriously.

 

[moedom]

Hudsonite:

The songs I don’t like are the ones that make me God: I am the bread of life, Love one another as I have loved you, I have cared for you, bear one anothers burdens. I mean who’s praying to who here?

I believe that the “I” in I am the bread of life refers to Christ; at least that is what I always thought. And depending what the reading are some of the other songs would be appropriate to reinforce them.

Moe

 

[mercygate]

hearye:

I have a couple questions for those who dislike new music at mass:

1. When were the songs that you like to hear at mass written?

Between the 4th and 20th Centuries

hearye:

1. Why do you like these songs?

They combine theological excellence with musical excellence: everything from chant to the marvellous hymns of Ralph Vaughn Williams.

hearye:

1. Are there any new songs that would be acceptable to you? Are they ok if they have a scriptural reference in them–ie: is it the tempo, the rhythem or the words that bother you?

Actually, there are some good, new, singable hymns (I’ll spare you the detailed list of criteria). Dan Schutte’s “Let Us Ever Glory in the Cross of Christ” comes to mind. Scriptural or dogmatic references are crucial. What bothers me is that so much music in Church today is *musically *drawn from secular forms: parlor/folk/pop/rock. And it isn’t just post-conciliar music. If you played “Mother of Christ” or “Our Lady of Knock” for someone who didn’t know those songs, would they be able to tell by the music that there was anything different from “Mother Machree” or “My Wild Irish Rose?” I think not.

The Byzantines are onto something by restricting their music so carefully.

It’s heresy in music circles, but one might argue that introducing the organ (in the 4th Century) was the beginning of the end . . . Yet I love a fine organ, well played, just as I love orchestral instruments: strings, woodwinds, harp, brass and typani – and even bells, in liturgy.

 

[LarryM]

mercygate:

1) When were the songs that you like to hear at mass written?

Between the 4th and 20th Centuries
They combine theological excellence with musical excellence: everything from chant to the marvellous hymns of Ralph Vaughn Williams.

I think we should be taking advantage of all of our 2000 years of musical tradition … using material from 2000 years ago, 200 years ago, 20 years ago, 2 years ago, and 2 weeks ago.

The problem, of course, is reconciling differences of opinion about the quality of lyrics and tunes written in the last 20 years.

The presentation of any particular song has a lot to do with it’s appropriateness, too. Proficient musicians who project a sense of reverence and prayer can use material that would come across as inappropriate from a less experienced group.