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catholicknight
Guest
What do you think about this?
catholicknight.blogspot.com/2009/08/liturgical-reform-crusade.html
catholicknight.blogspot.com/2009/08/liturgical-reform-crusade.html
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Joe_5859
Guest
Here are my answers
*]Yes
*]No/Yes
*]???
*]Yes
*]N/A
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catholicknight
Guest
I noticed you had questions about point 3.
It is my understanding, (and I believe I heard this on “Catholic Answers Live” radio), that the holding of hands during the “Our Father” is not canonically sanctioned, and does not follow the rubrics of the mass. Furthermore, I have also heard it said on “Catholic Answers Life” some years back, that the mimicking of priest’s gestures (such as extending the hands forward and lifting them upward), is also a violation of the rubrics and not canonically sanctioned.
If anybody knows any more about this, please help me out here.
It is my understanding, (and I believe I heard this on “Catholic Answers Live” radio), that the holding of hands during the “Our Father” is not canonically sanctioned, and does not follow the rubrics of the mass. Furthermore, I have also heard it said on “Catholic Answers Life” some years back, that the mimicking of priest’s gestures (such as extending the hands forward and lifting them upward), is also a violation of the rubrics and not canonically sanctioned.
If anybody knows any more about this, please help me out here.
J
Joe_5859
Guest
I’m all for not holding hands during the “Our Father”. Personally, it irks me immensely. But I’ve stopped making it a “deal-breaker” issue for me.
I’m careful about getting too nitpicky about gestures. The GIRM doesn’t really give much guidance on the gestures of the laity. Nowhere does it say we must all sit there with hands folded the entire time. So I suppose it depends whether you subscribe to the school of thought that (1) anything not expressly permitted is forbidden or (2) anything not expressly forbidden is permitted.
If someone is going around imitating the preist’s gestures during the consecration, I would have serious issues with that. If someone “lifts up their hands” as they say “We lift them up to the Lord”, I’m not as concerned.
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catholicknight
Guest
I don’t think getting “picky” of having “deal breakers” is part of this “liturgical renewal crusade.” Rather, it’s just a call for individuals to pursue a more traditional form of personal practice during the liturgy of the mass.
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Friar_David_O.Carm
Guest
Why focus on what others are doing or try to force your ideas of what “traditional” practices are?
I understand about the hand holding issue, but the others have valid options to them.
The Church does not mandate kneeling, reception by the mouth, or head coverings. To call those practices “traditional” is to say that those who chose the valid options that the Church allows are practicing something that is “untraditional”.
This is wrong. There is nothing wrong with standing and receiving in the hand and women not wearing a veil.
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CDNowak
Guest
To recognize that some practices are of recent origin while others were long held as established practice is not the same as condemning those unproven practices. The Latin Rite does have a preference for kneeling and most Rites (including the Latin) have a preference for reception on the tongue.
Certainly greater personal piety and devotion are to be applauded whatever shape they take, however it seems that they do tend to take more traditional forms.
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FAB
Guest
Movements like this are wrong. It promote decention in the Curch and against the Magisterium.
Peace,
FAB
Peace,
FAB
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thunderballs75
Guest
Absolutely not. It promotes absolute conformance to the teaching authority of the Church and most of all the truth of the orthodox Faith.
Please explain to me what is wrong with learning the Mass, receiving Communion reverently (and also as the pope teaches), following the rubrics, and dressing modestly. Why would anybody be opposed to a single one of these things?
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FAB
Guest
How does it promote conformity to the church.
It promotes what some want the Church to go back to. Of the points given, which are against the Church’s teaching, and don’t go to communion in the hand since it is allowed. the mas is the Ordinary form and yes I think Catholics should know it well.
Peace,
FAB
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Friar_David_O.Carm
Guest
What you say is fine until your last sentence. You equate certain practices as showing a “greater personal piety” which means that those who chose the valid options that you do not care for are not showing such a thing.
You can not equate reception of the Eucharist on the tongue on the knees as a “greater personal piety” without judging the inner spiritual life of a person. Something that you have no right to do.
This brings to mind the Scripture on the pharisee and publican.
While the norm for reception of the Eucharist in the Latin Church is on the tongue, I believe that the norm for the posture is standing.
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CDNowak
Guest
The judgement in choosing to outwardly express one’s piety in **any **particular way is two fold: will it help my faith and devotion, and will it help those around me? The forms that have emerged from tradition tend to have been kept because, for many people, they meet both of these criteria. I do (and did in my previous post) allow that my preferred form of piety may not be everyone else’s.
I do think that the traditional forms meet a need for catchesis without words (if you will) and, yes, I think they are a better choice for common practice. That does not mean that I am “judging the inner spiritual life” of those who do not share my opinion.
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japhy
Guest
There is presently no universal single norm for posture. From the 1967 instruction Eucharisticum Mysterium, “In accordance with the custom of the Church, the faithful may receive communion either kneeling or standing.” (n. 34a) I don’t know what “custom of the Church” is being referred to, since the custom of the Roman Church had been kneeling for centuries! The 2004 Instruction Redemptionis Sacramentum affirms that a person is not to be refused Communion simply because he wishes to receive kneeling or standing. (cf. n. 91)
It should be pointed out, though, that receiving kneeling is “superior” to receiving standing because a person who receives Communion while kneeling need not make any other sign of reverence (such as a bow or genuflection), whereas a person receiving Communion while standing is urged to make such an sign of reverence.
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Joe_5859
Guest
If you’re trying to encourage an increase personal piety through several concrete suggestions, then that’s good. I just hate to see these sorts of things turn into “If you don’t do it this way, you don’t love the liturgy.” I’m glad to see that’s not what you’re doing.
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FAB
Guest
The Pope is not the final say in the pratices of the Church. As bishop of Rome he has the right to have the mass in the ordinary form as it follows the roman rite. There are also things that are done that are unique to a papal mass.
The norm for the United states as request by the bishops and approved by Rome is the recieve communion standing and by the hand. To continue to object to the practice seems to questioning the wisdom and leadership of manny in the Church.
On other points, there is not prohibition to holding anothers hand during the Lord’s prayer. ths is a practice started by the people, and we are part of the decision making process in devloping church practices.
Having women cover thier heads was a misreading and understanding of Paul’s letter. It was specifically ment to effect the practice of one community for a very specific purpose and not to become a widespead practice as it did.
Peace,
FAB
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Joe_5859
Guest
You are correct that FAB is mistaken.
GIRM 160 “The consecrated host may be received either on the tongue or in the hand, at the discretion of each communicant.”
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FAB
Guest
If you want to split hairs you can.
The Catholic bishops did request for the practice to recieve by hand and it has been approved and is in common use by a large precentage of Catholics, therefor it is the norm for the Church in states even if by canon law it is extraordianary.
Peace,
FAB
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Joe_5859
Guest
Do you have any documentation for where the U.S. Bishops requested that people receive in the hand? The GIRM does not mention this.
The GIRM does mention that the norm for the U.S. in regards to posture is standing rather than kneeling, but it makes no such declaration in regard to hand vs. tongue.
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