Liturgical worship

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NorthTexan88

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Well, yet again, I am having to deal with friends and family who are dealing with the chagrine of be converting to Catholicism. This time they are attacking liturgical worship, repetitive prayer, praying to Mary etc…

I tried to explain that the early church WAS a liturgical church bc it is an offshoot of Judaism. Was I correct on this? and if so can someone give me a history of liturgical worship. I told them that I would get back to them when I knew the answer better

Also, I gave them the reference of St. Ephrem and his prayer to the BVM and stated it was written in the later 300’s…Well to my suprise, and according to them, this was about the time the church became “corrupt”, who knew:shrug:

Thanks for the advice all!
 
Your problem (and theirs) is that the New Testament does not portray any examples of liturgical worship. Indeed it seems to be quite the opposite, as shown by this passage from 1 Cornithians 14:
When you assemble, each one has a psalm, has a teaching, has a revelation, has a tongue, has an interpretation. Let all things be done for edification. 27 If anyone speaks in a tongue, it should be by two or at the most three, and each in turn, and one must interpret; 28 but if there is no interpreter, he must keep silent in the church; and let him speak to himself and to God. 29 Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others pass judgment. 30 But if a revelation is made to another who is seated, the first one must keep silent. 31 For you can all prophesy one by one, so that all may learn and all may be exhorted; 32 and the spirits of prophets are subject to prophets; 33 for God is not a God of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints.
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And if it isn’t in the Bible, it isn’t an accurate portryal of how they did things in the early church. 😉
 
NorthTexan88 said:
Well, yet again, I am having to deal with friends and family who are dealing with the chagrine of be converting to Catholicism. This time they are attacking liturgical worship, repetitive prayer, praying to Mary etc…

I tried to explain that the early church WAS a liturgical church bc it is an offshoot of Judaism. Was I correct on this? and if so can someone give me a history of liturgical worship. I told them that I would get back to them when I knew the answer better

Also, I gave them the reference of St. Ephrem and his prayer to the BVM and stated it was written in the later 300’s…Well to my suprise, and according to them, this was about the time the church became “corrupt”, who knew:shrug:

Thanks for the advice all!
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catholic.com/thisrock/1993/9301fea1.asp
catholic.com/thisrock/1994/9409fea3.asp
catholic.com/library/Intercession_of_the_Saints.asp
catholic.com/library/Praying_to_the_Saints.asp

Also, make sure your friends know that prayer and worship for Catholics aren’t necessaryly the same thing. Praying is more like a conversation and asking for help like, “I pray that you will help me.” Worship is what we do in the Mass and is directed toward God alone.
 
Zenas said:
Your problem (and theirs) is that the New Testament does not portray any examples of liturgical worship. Indeed it seems to be quite the opposite, as shown by this passage from 1 Cornithians 14: And if it isn’t in the Bible, it isn’t an accurate portryal of how they did things in the early church. 😉
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I think you should attend a Mass to see just how biblical it really is.
 
NorthTexan88 said:
I tried to explain that the early church WAS a liturgical church bc it is an offshoot of Judaism. Was I correct on this? and if so can someone give me a history of liturgical worship. I told them that I would get back to them when I knew the answer better
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There are several good books on the mass as biblically based liturgy; Edward Sri has one and Brent Piter another.

Scott Hahn does a good job of interpreting Revelations in terms of the Mass in his book The Lamb’s Supper. Consider some of the things in that Book: An altar, priests, vestments, lamp/candle stands, incense, the Eucharistic host, chalices, the Sign of the Cross, intercession of the angels and saints, antiphonal chants, readings from Scripture, the Lamb’s Supper . . . any of this sound familiar? Next, look at the prayers we use: The Gloria, the Alleluia, “Lift up your hearts . . .”, Holy, holy, holy, “Lamb of God”. All this without reaching into any other Biblical sources for such things as the actual Words of Institution in the context of the Last Supper (Mt 26, Mk 12, Lk 24, 1 Cor 11).

Peace and hang tough!
 
DJK100 said:
I think you should attend a Mass to see just how biblical it really is.
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Oh, I’ve attended a few masses. They seem to have three readings from scripture–one from the O.T., one from the non-gospel part of the N.T. and one from the gospels. The gospel reading is always done by the priest. Then there is a lot of the liturgy that quotes directly from scripture, such as the words of consecration. I’m not being critical of the Mass but I am saying that a protestant service has a lot of resemblance to that passage from 1 Corinthians 14 whereas a Mass has no resemblance to it at all.
 
Zenas said:
Oh, I’ve attended a few masses. They seem to have three readings from scripture–one from the O.T., one from the non-gospel part of the N.T. and one from the gospels. The gospel reading is always done by the priest. Then there is a lot of the liturgy that quotes directly from scripture, such as the words of consecration. I’m not being critical of the Mass but I am saying that a protestant service has a lot of resemblance to that passage from 1 Corinthians 14 whereas a Mass has no resemblance to it at all.
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Maybe true but then you would have to grant that the Catholic Mass contains a lot of what is in the Book of Revelations and not so much in a Protestant worship service.

By the way, what are your Catholic leanings? I am not trying to by rude, I am just curious to see how you can mix the two belief systems?
 
DJK100 said:
Maybe true but then you would have to grant that the Catholic Mass contains a lot of what is in the Book of Revelations and not so much in a Protestant worship service.
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Actually I was directing my answer to the O.P. of North Texan 88, whose protestant (no doubt evangelical) relatives were saying the liturgy is not scriptural. I have had this discussion with Baptists, who will say that there is no way the churches founded by Paul had the robes, incense, chants, altars etc. that Catholics do. Therefore, they could not have been Catholic churches. A lot of that comes from the descriptions of church services contained in the N.T. A lot more of it comes from tradition. We all like to think that how we conduct church is the way the apostles did it.

This concept was aptly, albeit inadvetently, described by Garrison Keillor on a Prarie Home Companion show a number of years ago. He was recalling the Christmas pagents of his childhood in the Lutheran church and said, “We just naturally assumed that Mary, Joseph and the wise men were all Lutherans.” And so it goes. We all assume the characters of the Bible were of our particular persuasion. It’s subtle and subliminal but it’s powerful. And North Texan 88 has no chance of pursuading his family otherwise. He would do better to start talking to them about something you can prove from the Bible–like the sacraments.

I will grant you the heavenly scene in Revelation has a lot of Catholic qualities but most evangelical protestants will brush it off as inconsequential. And they won’t read Scott Hahn’s book. To them it’s heresy and scripture plainly says not to listen to heretics.
 
NorthTexan88 said:
Well, yet again, I am having to deal with friends and family who are dealing with the chagrine of be converting to Catholicism. This time they are attacking liturgical worship, repetitive prayer, praying to Mary etc…

I tried to explain that the early church WAS a liturgical church bc it is an offshoot of Judaism. Was I correct on this? and if so can someone give me a history of liturgical worship. I told them that I would get back to them when I knew the answer better

Also, I gave them the reference of St. Ephrem and his prayer to the BVM and stated it was written in the later 300’s…Well to my suprise, and according to them, this was about the time the church became “corrupt”, who knew:shrug:

Thanks for the advice all!
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Here’ some ammunition for your discussion:

catholicforum.com/forums/showthread.php?40154-What-Was-Authentic-Early-Christian-Worship-Really-Like

Yours in Christ,
 
Zenas said:
Actually I was directing my answer to the O.P. of North Texan 88, I will grant you the heavenly scene in Revelation has a lot of Catholic qualities but most evangelical protestants will brush it off as inconsequential. And they won’t read Scott Hahn’s book. To them it’s heresy and scripture plainly says not to listen to heretics.
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Sorry…you just piqued my curiosity…why do they think Hahn is a heretic?
 
NorthTexan88 said:
Well, yet again, I am having to deal with friends and family who are dealing with the chagrine of be converting to Catholicism. This time they are attacking liturgical worship, repetitive prayer, praying to Mary etc…

I tried to explain that the early church WAS a liturgical church bc it is an offshoot of Judaism. Was I correct on this? and if so can someone give me a history of liturgical worship. I told them that I would get back to them when I knew the answer better

Also, I gave them the reference of St. Ephrem and his prayer to the BVM and stated it was written in the later 300’s…Well to my suprise, and according to them, this was about the time the church became “corrupt”, who knew:shrug:

Thanks for the advice all!
Click to expand...
Liturgy is defined as a form of public worship. Liturgical is pertaining to public worship.
The is word usually mis-used.

Every Christian group has a liturgy. How they worship in community and publicly. Even Baptist and Evangelicals. Some call it an Order of Worship. Most Baptist or Baptist type churches/groups follow the same general pattern.

prelude/beginning song, welcome, prayer, series of hymns, special music/offering, sermon, altar call with music, final prayer, ending or recessional hymn as the minister heads to the back of the building to shake everyones hand. We don’t find this liturgy listed in the Bible.

The NT does not list how the Church conducted its liturgy. We can gather bits and pieces of a worship service in Pauls letter to the church in Corinth. Chapter 11 concerning the Eucharist and appropriate clothing. Chapter 14 on appropriate use of gifts, especially tongues. From the last part of 14 it appears the Church adopted a disordered movement to worship, an anything goes mentality. Pauls epistle does not give us a full picture of worship.

The problem with Bible only for everything, is much gets left out. The teaching of the 12, The Didache beginning in Chapter 8 to Chapter 10 describes a Eucharistic liturgy you will not see in Evangelical Churches. The Didace is a First century book or catechism of the faith describing worship, personal conduct, baptisms etc.

You will have an uphill battle with your bible alone friends as they have denied themselves access to the fullness of the truth about worship and Church history and traditions. I liken this to my oldest son. He knows the mechanics behind a car, how it functions. He can not work on it. He studied the basics of how to drive a car. But he needs guidance from his parents to learn how to drive. To learn what the student handbook does not cover.

If they really want to understand. Have them read the Didache and Howards Evangelical is not Enough. Good starts.

Pray for them. Know your faith and do not get drawn into attacking their faith. Even as they attack yours. I am sorry you have to suffer due to their problems, for their attacks do show they suffer.

Mark
 
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