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Sparky
Guest
Actually, the creed is not said during daily masses, but cannot be elimindated on Sundays. This was a Sunday he’s talking about, isn’t it?
–Ann
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–Ann
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Sparky
Guest
Also - why is it that all these liturgy threads drift into Novus Ordo bashing sessions? There isn’t a problem with the NO mass. It’s the problem with how it is done. And there were, prior to Vatican II and even after, liturgical abuses going on in the Tridentine Rite as well. So no matter how often these trads moan and complain - liturgical abuse is as old as liturgy. I like TLM as much as anyone, but it’s not a solution to all our problems.
Sheesh.
–Ann
Sheesh.
–Ann
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Ham1
Guest
GREAT POST!Also - why is it that all these liturgy threads drift into Novus Ordo bashing sessions? There isn’t a problem with the NO mass. It’s the problem with how it is done. And there were, prior to Vatican II and even after, liturgical abuses going on in the Tridentine Rite as well. So no matter how often these trads moan and complain - liturgical abuse is as old as liturgy. I like TLM as much as anyone, but it’s not a solution to all our problems.
Sheesh.
–Ann
It is funny how so many contend that the NO is what causes the abuse. Last I checked a priest has to abuse the liturgy. It can’t abuse itself! They rely on the same logic as those who claim that “guns kill people” when in reality “people kill people.”
The problem is with priestly formation which means a problem with the seminaries.
It’s interesting to note that many of the massive abuses of the liturgy were accomplished by thousands of priests who studied and were ordained under the OLD mass. It seems obvious that we should really stop looking at the NO as the cause of liturgical abuse and try to find out what on earth was going on in the seminaries in the 40’s, 50’s and 60’s. It’s also interesting to note that the highest levels of sexual abuse occurred at the hands of priests were ordained in the 40’s, 50’s and 60’s.
It’s a formation problem, NOT a novus ordo problem.
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Sparky
Guest
I agree. What is it that makes a priest think he can go off and do these things willy nilly? Who taught him that?
Makes you wonder.
–Ann
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Ham1
Guest
I think the clear indication is that modernism crept into the Church waaaaaaay before Vatican II and long before the novus ordo. But for some, it’s just easier to think the old mass will solve all the problems.
I
Iohannes
Guest
Why is there so much abuse?
-Our pope will not stop many of the abuses infact if people continue the abuse long enough, lets put it in the GIRM. For example Communion-in-hand and female altar boys was started as abuses, but as people kept on abusing it Rome later approved them.
-The Bishops will not stop the abuses
-the priest will not stop the abuses
-most people do not give a darn about abuses
-Too many options in the Novus Ordo much easier to introduce abuse.
-There is no discipline at all
-Heck the first document Inaestable Dominum was not even enforced and the second Document Redemptoris Sacramentum seems to have no or little effect at all.
And much as I hate to admit this, but the current pope has done little.
So technically we as Catholics deserve bad liturgy for our sins, etc.
-Our pope will not stop many of the abuses infact if people continue the abuse long enough, lets put it in the GIRM. For example Communion-in-hand and female altar boys was started as abuses, but as people kept on abusing it Rome later approved them.
-The Bishops will not stop the abuses
-the priest will not stop the abuses
-most people do not give a darn about abuses
-Too many options in the Novus Ordo much easier to introduce abuse.
-There is no discipline at all
-Heck the first document Inaestable Dominum was not even enforced and the second Document Redemptoris Sacramentum seems to have no or little effect at all.
And much as I hate to admit this, but the current pope has done little.
So technically we as Catholics deserve bad liturgy for our sins, etc.
I
Iohannes
Guest
The only way to curtail the abuses is to Excommunicate from left to right and from top to bottom and let some blood spill. There is no way to stop the abuses unless somebody does that.
I realise that abuses are impossible to eliminate due to human pride but it can be reduced.
I realise that abuses are impossible to eliminate due to human pride but it can be reduced.
C
CatholicNerd
Guest
Sad when one has to leave his own rite to find a valid and licit Eucharist. That said, I don’t think it’s a good idea to suggest that people run away from the Novus Ordo, to either the Tridentine Mass or an Eastern liturgy. The people who care about the abuses are the only ones who can do anything to stop them. If they all run away and go where things are most comfortable, who’s left to put pressure on our bishops and priests? Yes, attend the Tridentine Mass or Divine Liturgy if you can, but don’t neglect your duty to your parish and diocese either. Christ will one day ask us why we ran away instead of helping those who are too timid to speak out against this stuff. I really believe that.
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Trad_Catholic
Guest
Amen to all of that!
and …
Either go to an Eastern or a FSSP Latin Mass parish (or SSPX if you can’t find FSSP)! God bless.
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Trad_Catholic
Guest
Funny…it never was a problem in the TLM and when Mass is not facing the people…
M
Minimus
Guest
Ham1 said:
Thanks v. much for the reference…I’ll look it up. However, as to the meaning of “peri pollwn” (pro multis): Christ said what he said, and it’s not clear why we would assert that he was being vague just at that moment. I doubt either Matthew or Jerome was particularly confused. In particular, Jerome seems to have been exceptionally careful in his word selection. Romans 5:15 does say “hoi polloi,” not “hoi pantes”; the language is figurative, as you indicate, and the use of “polloi” seems prompted by the need for parallelism in order to agree with the institutional phraseology. Far be it from me to dispute Trent; nevertheless, the facts are that “many” and not “all” were the words used in all instances (where any citation at all was used). Last, the logic of the redemption is a related, but different argument. Jesus Christ died for all men, and His sacrifice was sufficient to save all men, but not all men will accept Him nor be redeemed. Clearly (to me), that is why He said “peri pollwn.” Many other references to rejection were made by our Lord, and this is one of them, no? Anyway, a stimulating discussion.
I
Irish_Melkite
Guest
My Catholic brothers and sisters, Latin and Eastern,
I have only skimmed the thread ( Liturgy Abuse? ) in which the above quote was posted and, consequently, don’t consider that I have any right to comment on the substance of it. I do, however, have no qualms about commenting on the above post by a fellow Eastern Catholic.
This forum is titled “Catholic Answers” - not Latin or Roman, but “Catholic”. On that basis, it can be argued that it is as much a venue for those of the Eastern Catholic Churches sui iuris as it is for our Latin brothers and sisters. But, in truth, this forum is intended primarily to address, discuss, and teach Catholicism in terms of Western theological understanding, liturgical practice, and spirituality.
Charges have been made that there is an anti-Eastern bias present on this forum; I have listened to that claim and carefully observed whether there is any truth to it, since I have had to spend much time during the past four decades explaining and assuring my Catholicity and that of my Church to my brother and sister Latin Catholics. To date, I have seen misconceptions, honest ignorance, and genuine curiousity about the East on the part of posters here; I have observed that forum staff’s demonstrated levels of knowledge and interest regarding the East appear to only be superficial; but, I have observed nothing that would suggest an anti-Eastern basis.
That said, we, as Eastern Catholics, have been allowed to enter as guests into a forum that is primarily intended to provide a place for discussion by our brothers and sisters of the Latin Church with one another and those who come here to inquire of and debate matters of Catholicity. We have posted without interference on matters related to Eastern Catholicity and replied to those who have inquired about our Churches and their place in the Communion of Churches which together comprise the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.
It is neither our place as guests here, nor our place as Eastern Catholics, to make disparaging comments on the Latin Church’s liturgical forms of worship. More particularly, it is unworthy, disrespectful, and despicable that one who claims to be a member in good standing of a Church sui iuris in communion with Rome would make such a comment as I quoted above regarding the Pope, who is the both the Patriarch of the West and the spiritual leader of Catholicism.
Finally, to an invite voiced in the last sentence of the quoted post:
The Eastern Churches do not exist to be a haven for or an escapist venue for Catholics of the Latin Church who don’t like the theological presentations of their own Church or its liturgical forms. We appreciate interest in our Churches and in our liturgical traditions, but we want to and must be understood and appreciated for ourselves, not as an antidote to what disaffected Latins perceive as wrong in their own Church. The Novus Ordo Mass is neither less authentic nor holy than the Tridentine Mass; each, as a service of worship directed to God, has its own intrinsic holiness when served faithfully and reverently. To the extent that abuses exist within either, they must needs be addressed; but the form is only that - an external; ultimately, worship comes from within oneself, one’s heart and soul.
On behalf of my fellow Eastern Catholics, I apologize to the Forum’s members for the ill-considered words of my brother.
God grant you many years,
Neil
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firemnbob
Guest
Thank you, Irish. You are blessed with a gifted tongue (or fingers in this case
).
).
C
Charlemagne
Guest
A clarification - the Creed can be omitted during a Mass said on a day other than Sunday or which is not a Feast of Christ or Mary (I think)
F
Fortiterinre
Guest
Thank you, Brendan, excellent point. The Rite of Peace is part of the Order of Mass, the Sign of Peace may or may not be included within the Rite of Peace. I agree that I rarely have seen this outside the U.S…
T
Therese_Martin
Guest
Notice:
Thank you to all those who have participated in this discussion. This thread is now closed.
Thank you to all those who have participated in this discussion. This thread is now closed.
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