Liturgy and Ritual

  • Thread starter Thread starter whosebob
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
W

whosebob

Guest
A couple of weeks ago, I noted a link on a blog I frequent to an article by James Hitchcock of the Adoremus Society. I finally got around to reading it, and wow, I think it is a truly important piece which should be read by everyone who wishes to understand the present-day liturgical crisis in the Western Catholic Church (that’s not to say that every Latin Rite parish or religious community is experiencing this crisis, but it’s certainly widespread). Here’s the link:

Liturgy and Ritual

Moreover, Hitchcock’s analysis and insights can, I believe, help us to prepare for and to understand the liturgical “direction” in which Pope Benedict XVI appears poised to lead us. Please spread this article around to friends, families, pastors, seminarians, etc. by way of e-mail or whatever – it needs to be read!

In the Hearts of Jesus and Mary.

IC XC NIKA
 
Wow! Check this out… This is exactly what some of the innovators talk about. How they love the “community” aspect of all of it.
They don’t like “Happy Catholic” how about Pelagianism?
The ultimate root of liturgical disorder is a kind of popular, only half-understood version of the modern age’s besetting heresy — Pelagianism — a denial of human sinfulness, as in the recent defiant assertion that worshippers at Mass should proclaim “Jesus, I am worthy to receive you, help me to be more like you” and the equally defiant claim that official liturgy merely aims to “control” people.38 While theological arguments can be made for standing during the most sacred parts of the Mass, many people now consider it actually demeaning to kneel in the presence of God.
Pelagianism expresses itself not only in such obvious ways but in a desire to make liturgy entirely a human creation, an emanation from the self, yet another manifestation of the individual’s “creativity”. Thus the “style” of liturgy must now be elaborately and contrivedly casual, interlaced with attempts at humor, with exchanges between celebrant and congregation replacing the homily, everything coordinated to effect an informal atmosphere in which people do not experience awe at being in the presence of the Almighty and above all in no way feel themselves to be under judgment. For many people the greeting of peace, while a merely optional part of the liturgy, is nonetheless the high point of the celebration.39 The ideal modern liturgy is celebrated in a secular space chosen merely for its convenience, with little that is distinctively religious — metal folding chairs, few if any sacred symbols, a minimum of priestly vestments, music scarcely distinguishable from what is heard on television, Eucharistic vessels brought from the kitchen.<<
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
netmil(name removed by moderator) said:
Wow! Check this out… This is exactly what some of the innovators talk about. How they love the “community” aspect of all of it.
They don’t like “Happy Catholic” how about Pelagianism?
The ultimate root of liturgical disorder is a kind of popular, only half-understood version of the modern age’s besetting heresy — Pelagianism — a denial of human sinfulness, as in the recent defiant assertion that worshippers at Mass should proclaim “Jesus, I am worthy to receive you, help me to be more like you” and the equally defiant claim that official liturgy merely aims to “control” people.38 While theological arguments can be made for standing during the most sacred parts of the Mass, many people now consider it actually demeaning to kneel in the presence of God.
Pelagianism expresses itself not only in such obvious ways but in a desire to make liturgy entirely a human creation, an emanation from the self, yet another manifestation of the individual’s “creativity”. Thus the “style” of liturgy must now be elaborately and contrivedly casual, interlaced with attempts at humor, with exchanges between celebrant and congregation replacing the homily, everything coordinated to effect an informal atmosphere in which people do not experience awe at being in the presence of the Almighty and above all in no way feel themselves to be under judgment. For many people the greeting of peace, while a merely optional part of the liturgy, is nonetheless the high point of the celebration.39 The ideal modern liturgy is celebrated in a secular space chosen merely for its convenience, with little that is distinctively religious — metal folding chairs, few if any sacred symbols, a minimum of priestly vestments, music scarcely distinguishable from what is heard on television, Eucharistic vessels brought from the kitchen.<<
Click to expand...
I second that WOW. There does seem to be a similarity with what is stated above --and what I have seen coming across in some threads. The “offense” now is to call sin----sin and to say that people can and do exibit sinfull actions.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
Walking_Home said:
I second that WOW. There does seem to be a similarity with what is stated above --and what I have seen coming across in some threads. The “offense” now is to call sin----sin and to say that people can and do exibit sinfull actions.
Click to expand...
Hey WH, you’re a whole lot smarter than I am. How do you pronounce Pelagianism?

Like it’s spelled?
 
netmil(name removed by moderator) said:
For many people the greeting of peace, while a merely optional part of the liturgy, is nonetheless the high point of the celebration.
Click to expand...
While the article makes some excellent points, I have to seriously protest this. Are there really ‘many’ people who think the Sign of Peace is more of a ‘high point’ than reception of the Eucharist? Or even the Consecration or the hearing of the Gospel for those who don’t receive and therefore possibly don’t see the Eucharist as being the high point?

I’d love to talk to some of these ‘many’ - they certainly don’t seem to live anywhere near me!
 
netmil(name removed by moderator) said:
Wow! Check this out… This is exactly what some of the innovators talk about. How they love the “community” aspect of all of it.
They don’t like “Happy Catholic” how about Pelagianism?
The ultimate root of liturgical disorder is a kind of popular, only half-understood version of the modern age’s besetting heresy — Pelagianism — a denial of human sinfulness, as in the recent defiant assertion that worshippers at Mass should proclaim “Jesus, I am worthy to receive you, help me to be more like you” and the equally defiant claim that official liturgy merely aims to “control” people.38 While theological arguments can be made for standing during the most sacred parts of the Mass, many people now consider it actually demeaning to kneel in the presence of God.
Pelagianism expresses itself not only in such obvious ways but in a desire to make liturgy entirely a human creation, an emanation from the self, yet another manifestation of the individual’s “creativity”. Thus the “style” of liturgy must now be elaborately and contrivedly casual, interlaced with attempts at humor, with exchanges between celebrant and congregation replacing the homily, everything coordinated to effect an informal atmosphere in which people do not experience awe at being in the presence of the Almighty and above all in no way feel themselves to be under judgment. For many people the greeting of peace, while a merely optional part of the liturgy, is nonetheless the high point of the celebration.39 The ideal modern liturgy is celebrated in a secular space chosen merely for its convenience, with little that is distinctively religious — metal folding chairs, few if any sacred symbols, a minimum of priestly vestments, music scarcely distinguishable from what is heard on television, Eucharistic vessels brought from the kitchen.<<
Click to expand...
Good Lord, what land does this writer live in? I don’t think I’ve ever seen a parish like the one he describes. Except maybe the humor part but I don’t see a problem with that on occasion.
Click to expand...
Click to expand...
 
LilyM said:
While the article makes some excellent points, I have to seriously protest this. Are there really ‘many’ people who think the Sign of Peace is more of a ‘high point’ than reception of the Eucharist? Or even the Consecration or the hearing of the Gospel for those who don’t receive and therefore possibly don’t see the Eucharist as being the high point?

I’d love to talk to some of these ‘many’ - they certainly don’t seem to live anywhere near me!
Click to expand...
This is how I feel Lily, who in heavens name would think that was the high point. I never heard of that before! It’s totally ridiculous! I’d like to know who this writer is and maybe read the whole thing perhaps he wasn’t talking about the Catholic church at all in this paragraph that was posted.
 
LilyM said:
While the article makes some excellent points, I have to seriously protest this. Are there really ‘many’ people who think the Sign of Peace is more of a ‘high point’ than reception of the Eucharist? Or even the Consecration or the hearing of the Gospel for those who don’t receive and therefore possibly don’t see the Eucharist as being the high point?

I’d love to talk to some of these ‘many’ - they certainly don’t seem to live anywhere near me!
Click to expand...
Lily, good point.
I really don’t think that anyone would openly admit to any of this.
However, some of the things that people have said with regard to the “community” aspect of the liturgy, lead me to believe that these people would consider the elimination of such practices to be an abomination.
Should one take a innovator and stick them into the middle of a Holy Mass at my parish, even if they knew every person there, the “community” aspect of the liturgy would be missing for them.

That is what the writer is talking about. We shouldn’t care at all if the Holy Mass is celebrated with other people but rather with other souls exaulting Our Lord.
 
anamchara said:
This is how I feel Lily, who in heavens name would think that was the high point. I never heard of that before! It’s totally ridiculous! I’d like to know who this writer is and maybe read the whole thing perhaps he wasn’t talking about the Catholic church at all in this paragraph that was posted.
Click to expand...
I’ve never heard of such a thing either, at least not in the actual practice of my faith.
Perhaps the OP has misunderstood what was going on?
 
Karianne said:
I’ve never heard of such a thing either, at least not in the actual practice of my faith.
Perhaps the OP has misunderstood what was going on?
Click to expand...
I remember once a few years back someone on a Catholic board posted a picture of a “clown mass” and I’ll be darned if there weren’t clowns dressed all up and celebrating mass…later I heard the whole thing was a fake. It was pretty silly looking I must admit. :eek:
 
anamchara said:
Good Lord, what land does this writer live in? I don’t think I’ve ever seen a parish like the one he describes.
Click to expand...
You haven’t been around long enough.
Or maybe, as the article points out, it’s just become normal for you so you don’t see it.

How about a nice Halloween Mass?
youtube.com/watch?v=khco_N-uEOY
(there was another right here in MI that had the video pulled by the parish)
Hey, Barney can come to your parish
youtube.com/watch?v=fHi_VZLtcQ8

Want to see minimalizing the role of the priest?
How about LA.

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
 
anamchara said:
I remember once a few years back someone on a Catholic board posted a picture of a “clown mass” and I’ll be darned if there weren’t clowns dressed all up and celebrating mass…later I heard the whole thing was a fake. It was pretty silly looking I must admit. :eek:
Click to expand...
Which non-existant Clown Mass was that?
This one?
http://www.bettnet.com/blog/images/uploads/clownbread.jpg
or this one?
http://www.bettnet.com/blog/images/uploads/diversity.jpg
or this one in 2002?

romancatholicblog.typepad.com/roman_catholic_blog/2006/12/a_sacrilegious_.html
 
netmil(name removed by moderator) said:
Lily, good point.
I really don’t think that anyone would openly admit to any of this.
However, some of the things that people have said with regard to the “community” aspect of the liturgy, lead me to believe that these people would consider the elimination of such practices to be an abomination.
Should one take a innovator and stick them into the middle of a Holy Mass at my parish, even if they knew every person there, the “community” aspect of the liturgy would be missing for them.

That is what the writer is talking about. We shouldn’t care at all if the Holy Mass is celebrated with other people but rather with other souls exaulting Our Lord.
Click to expand...
Sure, people might be upset if the Sign of Peace were eliminated. So may they be upset at Masses where there is no Creed or no homily. Doesn’t mean they think these things are THE central point of the Mass or anything like.

I’m positive they’d be just a ***wee ***bit more ticked off if the Consecration were skipped or Communion not distributed :ehh:
 
netmil(name removed by moderator) said:
You haven’t been around long enough.
Or maybe, as the article points out, it’s just become normal for you so you don’t see it.

How about a nice Halloween Mass?
Click to expand...
Ok, it actually got to be funny watching that! I have never seen that or anything like in any parish I’ve ever been in and I can assure you I’d remember it! Oh too funny, they sure had something in mind didn’t they? Good Lord! I saw your clown pics and yes those are the same ones I think I saw before but I thought someone had said it was joke…maybe not. I don’t know what the deal was with LA, that looks like it was some sort of event.
 
LilyM said:
Sure, people might be upset if the Sign of Peace were eliminated. So may they be upset at Masses where there is no Creed or no homily. Doesn’t mean they think these things are THE central point of the Mass or anything like.

I’m positive they’d be just a ***wee ***bit more ticked off if the Consecration were skipped or Communion not distributed :ehh:
Click to expand...
How about if the words of the Consecration are changed to suit the community?
Or if the community recites the words of the Consecration with the priest?

I agree, most would be ticked if they couldn’t receive communion but what if the EMHCs self intinct? Or the Priest allows them to distribute communion without him?

Or a nun who gives a Homily?

Do you see? It’s more than someone thinking, I Like when we shake hands. It’s the little things that diminish the Priest and therefore the sacred. The We of all of it.
 
netmil(name removed by moderator) said:
How about if the words of the Consecration are changed to suit the community?
Or if the community recites the words of the Consecration with the priest?

Or a nun who gives a Homily?
Click to expand...
I have not seen this either netmil, I think you need to get another vedio for me. The last few years I do keep hearing about this but I haven’t seen it. When I do I promise I’ll come on here and eat my words 🙂 I should get “computerguy” in here he is from my diocese…maybe he has seen this.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top