Liturgy between 1965 and 1975

[maryjk]

I received my First Communion in May 1974. And I have pictures of it.

Yes, we wore white dresses. In fact, I still have mine. And a white veil. I have that too. And lots of pictures of both.

I still have the First Communion Missal that I received. It is in English, not Latin. The Mass matches (very closely if not exactly) to the Mass before the recent changes. “And also with you.”

I received on the tongue. I have a picture of that.

So by May of 1974, we had changed to English, but everyone was still receiving on the tongue.

 

[triumphguy]

A general note: I wouldn’t blame the Sacred Liturgy for the drop in attendance (which was already dropping).

Radio, TV, Rock and Roll, the 60’s, WW2 and the Atom bomb, the Cold War, loss of trust in authority in general, contraceptives and especially the pill, the “Summer of Love,” feminism, a
“pill for every ill” medicine so that STDs were no longer scary, a rise in education rates, more disposable income for the younger generation, the rise of teenagers, consumerism, all combined to form the perfect storm to drive (or rather draw) people out of Church.

 

[Cavaille-Coll]

Before certain posters engage in attacks on what they perceive are inaccuracies in the stories of other posters, remember that there was no uniform plan to implement the legitimate changes in the Novus Ordo and the General Instruction. In one diocese there was months of careful preparation and the next diocese had none at all. One bishop followed the instructions to the letter and the next took great liberties with it.

 

[ProVobis]

One poster provided these websites for further explanation.

adoremus.org/0210Benofy.html

adoremus.org/0310Benofy.html

 

[triumphguy]

Before certain posters engage in attacks on what they perceive are inaccuracies in the stories of other posters, remember that there was no uniform plan to implement the legitimate changes in the Novus Ordo and the General Instruction. In one diocese there was months of careful preparation and the next diocese had none at all. One bishop followed the instructions to the letter and the next took great liberties with it.

Attacks? I haven’t seen any attacks.

… these are factually true and not subjective.

altar boys do not serve in street clothes

the words “For the kingdom the power and the glory…” come from one of the oldest CATHOLIC works - the Didache.

the priest doesn’t “hand out” the host

…

you still have to fast before communion

First Communion is still a big deal - white dresses and veils included

 

[janeway529]

A general note: I wouldn’t blame the Sacred Liturgy for the drop in attendance (which was already dropping).

Radio, TV, Rock and Roll, the 60’s, WW2 and the Atom bomb, the Cold War, loss of trust in authority in general, contraceptives and especially the pill, the “Summer of Love,” feminism, a
“pill for every ill” medicine so that STDs were no longer scary, a rise in education rates, more disposable income for the younger generation, the rise of teenagers, consumerism, all combined to form the perfect storm to drive (or rather draw) people out of Church.

I would also add in the large amount of priests leaving the priesthood and nuns leaving their communities to that list.

 

[57classic]

“altar boys do not serve in street clothes”

Not in your neck of the woods, however, you haven’t been everywhere.

I moved around western Nebraska, eastern Wyoming, Colorado and Northwest Kansas, a lot from 1976-1985, many times I saw altar boys in street clothes. I haven’t seen this in several years but I would be willing to bet there is still a parish out there that allows it for whatever reason.

 

[triumphguy]

I would also add in the large amount of priests leaving the priesthood and nuns leaving their communities to that list.

Yes my own aunt (a nun) married a priest - they were missionaries (and drove an ambulance together) in Africa during the Biafran civil war.

She was the youngest of 6 girls and entered the convent with her best friend at age 15, he entered the seminary straight off the farm in Ireland at age 12.

Neither of them would have been allowed anywhere near religious life in this day and age.

They were young, living and working in a dangerous war zone and fell in love: both got dispensations and they were married in Church. My father refused to speak to them for years.

When I was in the Franciscans (I never took final vows) many priests (with 20 or more years) left who had also left home at 12 and joined the minor seminary (which was basically indistinguishable from any other order’s, or diocesan minor seminary). Most of them had struggled with depression, booze etc.

Religious orders have gone back to their roots, and no longer recruit en-masse to a clerical life.

 

[triumphguy]

“altar boys do not serve in street clothes”

Not in your neck of the woods, however, you haven’t been everywhere.

I moved around western Nebraska, eastern Wyoming, Colorado and Northwest Kansas, a lot from 1976-1985, many times I saw altar boys in street clothes. I haven’t seen this in several years but I would be willing to bet there is still a parish out there that allows it for whatever reason.

I was similarly responding to a generality.

So there may be the odd parish that allows it, but not in general.

 

[Lawrence178]

To the OP about how the changes happened, it really depended where you were. For instance, in Philadelphia, Archbishop Krol was very resistant to changes. Other bishops embraced them.

Sorry these are from a while ago, but I just had to chime in.

I have asked older folks what they remember about the older form of mass. None - none! - looked back on it with any fondness, or wished that it would return. No one regretted that Latin has been done away with, since no one understood it anyway and nobody paid attention to a mass they didn’t understand.

I’m a waiter, and older people often ask me about what I am doing this fall. I answer that I am entering the FSSP, and I explain a little bit. Most people just politely say “that’s nice” and such, but there has been a good number who were extremely excited. Many older people have verbatim said to me “That is how is should be!” (referring to the TLM), and “If it was still like that, I’d go back,” and many other similar comments. No one has said that the TLM was horrible and they were glad for the changes, but that would obviously be awkward in that setting. Still, I find it odd that I have only spoken to a few dozen people and gotten a good number of positive responses yet yours have all been negative.

My mother also tells me how happy my great-grandparents are in Heaven about me celebrating the TLM, that they hated the changes in the Mass and just wanted the TLM back.

I have NEVER in 52 years seen a dance troop “swaying” to Christian Rock during the offertory procession (and for many of those 53 years I have been to mass daily!)

In my 19 years, I have. There was a special teen Mass my friend’s mom made us go to. It was all about this Christian rock band. The lead singer pretty much gave the sermon. There was abundant rock music and swaying. The whole thing was sacrilegious to the core.

 

[andrewstx]

Yes my own aunt (a nun) married a priest - they were missionaries (and drove an ambulance together) in Africa during the Biafran civil war.

She was the youngest of 6 girls and entered the convent with her best friend at age 15, he entered the seminary straight off the farm in Ireland at age 12.

Neither of them would have been allowed anywhere near religious life in this day and age.

They were young, living and working in a dangerous war zone and fell in love: both got dispensations and they were married in Church. My father refused to speak to them for years.

When I was in the Franciscans (I never took final vows) many priests (with 20 or more years) left who had also left home at 12 and joined the minor seminary (which was basically indistinguishable from any other order’s, or diocesan minor seminary). Most of them had struggled with depression, booze etc.

Religious orders have gone back to their roots, and no longer recruit en-masse to a clerical life.

Boy, ain’t that the truth. In a large number of religious communities the interest seems to be more in keeping new members out than admitting them. I was a postulant who never got past the postulancy. The last one that actually made it through to first vows wassix years before me. Out of many who applied I was the only one accepted to be a postulant. And there were no older novices than I. I basically was alone in the big novitiate.

 

[SMHW]

To the OP about how the changes happened, it really depended where you were. For instance, in Philadelphia, Archbishop Krol was very resistant to changes. Other bishops embraced them.

The other thing to remember is that a given bishop may have embraced a certain kind of change but not another. The Cardinal of Los Angeles was very conservative about most matters but not about the English language. Dialog Masses seemed to have been the norm in the Los Angeles Archdiocese prior to Vatican II so having the people respond was not really anything new other than the language – which was a fairly good word for word translation. As a result most people didn’t seem to mind the switch to English. People continued to dress up, the women continued to wear hats (veils were never that popular), and the priests continued to face the altar. Many of those types of changes didn’t happen until the 1970s.

Religious order parishes, schools, and retreat centers did often implement changes at a different time than diocesan parishes and schools. That caused some problems when parishioners wishing for change abandoned their territorial parishes for the more liberal ones.

I’m a waiter, and older people often ask me about what I am doing this fall. I answer that I am entering the FSSP, and I explain a little bit. Most people just politely say “that’s nice” and such, but there has been a good number who were extremely excited. Many older people have verbatim said to me “That is how is should be!” (referring to the TLM), and “If it was still like that, I’d go back,” and many other similar comments. No one has said that the TLM was horrible and they were glad for the changes, but that would obviously be awkward in that setting. Still, I find it odd that I have only spoken to a few dozen people and gotten a good number of positive responses yet yours have all been negative.

My guess is that most people who say, “That’s nice,” are being polite. The majority of American Catholics I knew were very happy to have Mass in the vernacular. Did they hate Latin? No. They just liked English better because it was easier.

My mother also tells me how happy my great-grandparents are in Heaven about me celebrating the TLM, that they hated the changes in the Mass and just wanted the TLM back.

Sorry for the bluntness. I don’t find the term “TLM” to be useful. It’s unclear. I really don’t believe most people miss Latin nearly as much as they miss other changes. Do some people miss Latin? Of course. But most people I know who say they want TLM mean they want the EF; they don’t mean they wish the OF was in Latin. Some people mean they miss ornate churches, more incense, organ music, or some other “environmental” factor. There were many Catholics who were quite content with the Mass of Pope Paul IV prior to changes that came about following the ICEL translation. (I am obviously referring to English speakers.)

I almost hesitate to say this because it sounds like I am calling the piety of young people into question. But of those who desire more EF Masses to be celebrated there are some who are motivated by a desire to have a different spirituality (I hate that word but sometimes it’s the best choice) than their parents. That was what happened in the 1960s and early 1970s. The next generations wanted a change back to more traditional spirituality in the 2000s. I firmly believe both desires for change were/are the work of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Starrsmother]

Yes my own aunt (a nun) married a priest - they were missionaries (and drove an ambulance together) in Africa during the Biafran civil war.

She was the youngest of 6 girls and entered the convent with her best friend at age 15, he entered the seminary straight off the farm in Ireland at age 12.

Neither of them would have been allowed anywhere near religious life in this day and age.

They were young, living and working in a dangerous war zone and fell in love: both got dispensations and they were married in Church. My father refused to speak to them for years.

When I was in the Franciscans (I never took final vows) many priests (with 20 or more years) left who had also left home at 12 and joined the minor seminary (which was basically indistinguishable from any other order’s, or diocesan minor seminary). Most of them had struggled with depression, booze etc.

Religious orders have gone back to their roots, and no longer recruit en-masse to a clerical life.

 

[felsguy]

SMHW:
The other thing to remember is that a given bishop may have embraced a certain kind of change but not another. The Cardinal of Los Angeles was very conservative about most matters but not about the English language. Dialog Masses seemed to have been the norm in the Los Angeles Archdiocese prior to Vatican II so having the people respond was not really anything new other than the language – which was a fairly good word for word translation. As a result most people didn’t seem to mind the switch to English. People continued to dress up, the women continued to wear hats (veils were never that popular), and the priests continued to face the altar. Many of those types of changes didn’t happen until the 1970s.

Religious order parishes, schools, and retreat centers did often implement changes at a different time than diocesan parishes and schools. That caused some problems when parishioners wishing for change abandoned their territorial parishes for the more liberal ones.

My guess is that most people who say, “That’s nice,” are being polite. The majority of American Catholics I knew were very happy to have Mass in the vernacular. Did they hate Latin? No. They just liked English better because it was easier.

Sorry for the bluntness. I don’t find the term “TLM” to be useful. It’s unclear. I really don’t believe most people miss Latin nearly as much as they miss other changes. Do some people miss Latin? Of course. But most people I know who say they want TLM mean they want the EF; they don’t mean they wish the OF was in Latin. Some people mean they miss ornate churches, more incense, organ music, or some other “environmental” factor. There were many Catholics who were quite content with the Mass of Pope Paul IV prior to changes that came about following the ICEL translation. (I am obviously referring to English speakers.)

I almost hesitate to say this because it sounds like I am calling the piety of young people into question. But of those who desire more EF Masses to be celebrated there are some who are motivated by a desire to have a different spirituality (I hate that word but sometimes it’s the best choice) than their parents. That was what happened in the 1960s and early 1970s. The next generations wanted a change back to more traditional spirituality in the 2000s. I firmly believe both desires for change were/are the work of the Holy Spirit.

Very astute comments

.

 

[Starrsmother]

Sorry for the first post–I was trying to figure how to answer a quote and messed up. Anyway, I can relate to the person who referred to an aunt and uncle who had been a nun and priest in Africa and eventually renounced their vows and married. My father was one of 12 kids born at the turn of the century in 1901. His family was German Catholic so from what I was told, since my Dad wanted to go to college, he was chosen to be “given back to the church” as a priest. I still have the crucifix that he once wore on the tie around his waist. Ultimately, he met my mom and disappointed his family at least somewhat by marrying and not becoming a priest. Fast forward to today, There are two women in my current parish who live together who once were nuns in the 70’s, I believe. They apparently entered the convent very young and for wrong reasons and they too renounced their vows. The point is: A vocation is a gift from God–and if a person doesn’t truly have it you can’t force them to.

 

[ProVobis]

My guess is that most people who say, “That’s nice,” are being polite. The majority of American Catholics I knew were very happy to have Mass in the vernacular. Did they hate Latin? No. They just liked English better because it was easier.

I did not get that impression. The Catholic high school I went to went to all kinds of trouble to drop Latin as a requirement. It wasn’t until I took Latin at a state university where I would meet people who were more passionate about the language.

I guess I wasn’t too surprised when a group of Anglicans no less presented a petition for the restoration of the Latin Mass to the Pope. He granted the indult, subsequently called the Agatha Christie Indult.

 

[felsguy]

Quote:
Originally Posted by felsguy

My guess is that most people who say, “That’s nice,” are being polite. The majority of American Catholics I knew were very happy to have Mass in the vernacular. Did they hate Latin? No. They just liked English better because it was easier.

Just for the record, the above was part of SMHW’s post #32. Somehow in my attempt to quote it, it appears as if I was the author. Not a big deal but I don’t want to take credit for his post which I do think was right on.

 

[jimkhong]

I have always been grateful that our parents have never referred back to the Latin mass. Thus for my generation in my country, we had a distinct break from the past liturgical practices of pre-Vatican II. It was crucial for us in Asia as with Vatican II, we stopped being Europeans and became Asians.

It was much later when I traveled abroad when I realised that the Tridentine mass wasn’t that far away in time. Although I have no qualms attending a Tridentine mass, it will never be my staple as the vernacular mass is. The spice however is always welcomed, similar like the Eastern Rite liturgies I attended.

Sadly though, we are not immune to the very middle-class view of “Old is Gold” thinking. Most have never attended a Latin mass, whether Vatican II or Tridentine, and harks back to a mythical age when the Church was monolithic and uniform.

Still, being Catholic means that all ways of praying are invited at the one table, as long as the faith is not incorrectly expressed.

 

[Lawrence178]

My guess is that most people who say, “That’s nice,” are being polite.

??? That is exactly what I said, they were just being polite. They either don’t care or even disapprove. But the amount of people excited about the Tridentine Mass were no small group at all, so I thought it was very odd the previous poster said all of his contacts had negative opinions of it.

Sorry for the bluntness. I don’t find the term “TLM” to be useful. It’s unclear.

Well I don’t prefer the term EF. I use either TLM or Tridentine. I don’t find anything wrong with any of the terms.

I almost hesitate to say this because it sounds like I am calling the piety of young people into question. But of those who desire more EF Masses to be celebrated there are some who are motivated by a desire to have a different spirituality (I hate that word but sometimes it’s the best choice) than their parents. That was what happened in the 1960s and early 1970s. The next generations wanted a change back to more traditional spirituality in the 2000s. I firmly believe both desires for change were/are the work of the Holy Spirit.

I’d disagree that what happened to the faithful in the late 60’s and early 70’s was the work of God, but this is getting the thread too off track, I think we’d best end it.