Liturgy committee meeting

[PaixGioiaAmor]

In an interview broadcast on the World Over, Francis Cardinal Arinze was asked a question regarding instruments used for the liturgy. He said that his rule of thumb was that if it were used for a bar or a club, then it is not meant for the Mass. A pipe organ has centuries of liturgical use behind it. The bass guitar does not and is more commonly used at a bar and a dance club than it is any place else.

That is obviously his opinion - not anything legislated.

I use a bass guitar player at mass every Sunday - and if I didn’t tell you he was playing, you wouldn’t know he was there. He simply adds a richer, thicker bass when the piano is used. It’s certainly not anything like the sound you’d hear in a bar.

 

[benedictgal]

That is obviously his opinion - not anything legislated.

I use a bass guitar player at mass every Sunday - and if I didn’t tell you he was playing, you wouldn’t know he was there. He simply adds a richer, thicker bass when the piano is used. It’s certainly not anything like the sound you’d hear in a bar.

Well, you may not have read all of the documents regarding Sacred Music, as Musicam Sacram states:

1. In permitting and using musical instruments, the culture and traditions of individual peoples must be taken into account. However, those instruments which are, by common opinion and use, suitable for secular music only, are to be altogether prohibited from every liturgical celebration and from popular devotions.44

This would include drums, electric guitars and other things that are used mostly in secular music. Therefore, the good cardinal wasn’t speaking off the top of his head on this one. The former Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger also had some observations, but, I fear that many of you will simply discount his words as mere opinion. Although, some of what many have discounted as mere personal opinion has wound up turning into concrete reality (Sacramentum Caritatis and the Motu Proprio on the Latin Mass). Maybe the same will hold true for musical instruments.

 

[PaixGioiaAmor]

The key word there is “suitable”.

As I said in my previous post, in a larger church if you are using a piano it’s really necessary to use a bass guitar, otherwise the piano treble sound is not enough to lead a congregation.

My opinion is that what is being said there is that the music should not sound comparable to what one would hear in a bar; so if there is an instrument that produces that sound only, it is not appropriate.

As I said, if you came to mass at my parish you would not even realize a bass guitar is being played.

 

[benedictgal]

The key word there is “suitable”.

As I said in my previous post, in a larger church if you are using a piano it’s really necessary to use a bass guitar, otherwise the piano treble sound is not enough to lead a congregation.

My opinion is that what is being said there is that the music should not sound comparable to what one would hear in a bar; so if there is an instrument that produces that sound only, it is not appropriate.

As I said, if you came to mass at my parish you would not even realize a bass guitar is being played.

The organ is the instrument of choice for the Church, have you not considered using it? It does have the pride of place over all other instruments. Furthermore, how people can stretch things for convenience sake is beyond me? You certainly don’t need a bass guitar to lead a congregation.

The problem is that the documents exist for a reason. It is good for the committee to familiarize itself with them and not try to find loopholes for everything just because they don’t find something that they like. That is stretching things a bit too much. Some take the spirit of Vatican II and make it the norm wihtout even reading what Vatican II actually said.

 

[Jean_Anthony]

This thread is straying from the original topic. Please stay on track, everyone or I will have to close this thread.

 

[benedictgal]

There is something very important that we have to keep in mind when convening a liturgy committee together. When planning liturgies, we need to do so reading the documents as the Church reads them and thinking with the Church. There are things that are not open to interpretation and are not left up to creativity and idiosyncracy. Cardinal Arinze was very clear when he addressed a group of liturgists:

The liturgy is not a field for self-expression, free creation and the demonstration of personal tastes. Idiosyncrasies tend to attract attention to the person rather than to the mysteries of Christ being celebrated. They can also upset, puzzle, annoy, mislead or confuse the congregation.

Nevertheless, it is also true that the liturgical norms do allow some flexibility. With reference to the central and most important liturgical action, the Mass, for example, we can speak of three levels of flexibility. First, there are in the Missal and the Lectionary some alternative texts, rites, chants, readings and blessings from which the priest celebrant can choose. (cf GIRM 24, RS 39) Then there are choices left at the competence of the diocesan bishop or the Conference of Bishops. Examples are regulation of concelebration, norms regarding the distribution of Communion under both kinds, the construction and ordering of churches, translations and some gestures. (cf SC 38, 40; GIRM 387, 390) Some such alternatives require recognitio from the Holy See. The most demanding level of variability concerns inculturation in the strictest sense. It involves action by the Conference of Bishops, after the conducting of deep interdisciplinary studies and recognitio from the Holy See.

While there is room for flexibility in the liturgy, liturgy committees have to keep in mind the factors that the cardinal described in the above quote. Now, what is not allowed (and this is very important for liturgical committees to bear in mind) is the following:

a do-it-yourself attitude is not acceptable in the public worship of the Church. It does damage to the Church’s worship and to the faith of the people. The people of God have the right that the liturgy be celebrated as the Church wants it. (cf RS 12) The mysteries of Christ should not be celebrated as personal taste or whim may indicate. “The ‘treasure’ is too important and precious to risk impoverishment or compromise through forms of experimentation or practices introduced without a careful review on the part of ecclesiastical authorities”. (EE 51)

I bring these issues because I do believe that they are germaine to any understanding of how the lturgy is to be handled. Believe me, I write from experience. I have been through many knock-down drag down fights over the integrity of the Mass and have come home in tears over some very painful discussions. It is not very pretty. That is not to say that all of it has been a nightmarish experience. But, in order to save the heartache and the tears from flowing, you need to read and understand the documents as the Church understands them, not as you or the committee would want to understand them.

 

[pprimeau1976]

We have a worship commission that handles the liturgies. I am pondering getting involved in it. I just want to see what these people are thinking half the time. We are a Roman Catholic parish that stands during the entire Eucharistic Prayer. It’s not that I don’t think standing is inappropriate, it is appropriate for Byzantine Catholics. But we are not a Byzantine Parish.

Not all churches have pipe organs, some only have electric organs, which are also used in bars and clubs.

Jim

Our church has an electric organ it purchased in 2003, but you would never guess that it’s electric. It sounds no different than the organ at Blessed Sacrament Cathedral.

http://original.rodgersinstruments.com/images/organs/pic_trillium967.jpg

I think that these electric organs are fine because they accomplish what the Vatican desires. I don’t think they would nit pick churches who don’t have the resources to spend all the money to install a real pipe organ - especially when the churches may be temporary.

What the Vatican doesn’t want are electric organs that sound like it was used by The Doors.

 

[benedictgal]

We have a worship commission that handles the liturgies. I am pondering getting involved in it. I just want to see what these people are thinking half the time. We are a Roman Catholic parish that stands during the entire Eucharistic Prayer. It’s not that I don’t think standing is inappropriate, it is appropriate for Byzantine Catholics. But we are not a Byzantine Parish.

Our church has an electric organ it purchased in 2003, but you would never guess that it’s electric. It sounds no different than the organ at Blessed Sacrament Cathedral.

http://original.rodgersinstruments.com/images/organs/pic_trillium967.jpg

I think that these electric organs are fine because they accomplish what the Vatican desires. I don’t think they would nit pick churches who don’t have the resources to spend all the money to install a real pipe organ - especially when the churches may be temporary.

What the Vatican doesn’t want are electric organs that sound like it was used by The Doors.

Your last ponit is very true. I love Duran Duran, myself, but, I certainly don’t want my parish music sounding like it came from Nick Rhodes’ synthesizer (techno pop).

Now, regarding the issue of standing during the entire Eucharistic Prayer, that is not the norm. The norm calls for kneeling from the beginning of the Eucharistic prayer to after the doxology. In the United States, we are to remain kneeling even after the Memorial Acclamation. What your parish is practicing, assuming it is a Latin Rite parish, certainly goes against the norms.

 

[benedictgal]

I would start with this quiz. It is essential they are grounded in the lirugy.

Some of the craziness I have heard from people with Masters of Divinity degrees in liturgy committee

1. Let the kids do the homily - when challenged the reply was - the professor said it was OK
2. Let’s stand around the altar
3. let’s liven it up with liturgial dance
4. make the liturgy more entertaining
5. let’s have a play during the Mass

it goes on and on.

i’ve heard the last one, specifically every Christmas and Good Friday. Number three was one that we tried to nix, but the nuns overrode us, much to my rector’s chagrin, even though we specifically told them that it was not allowed. I think I had to have a very strong Dr. Pepper mixed with something else that night, after the Mass.

The reason why I am so very passionate about the documents, especially where music was concerned was because I was railroaded by the wife of the bishop’s executive assistant, who is a liturgical musician (very attached to her guitar to the point that it became her third arm, so to speak) and she was going to substitute Angels, We Have Heard on High for the Gloria for the Midnight Mass (at which the bishop would preside). I kept saying that it was not proper, but, because of the precarious situation, I was backed into a corner. And, no, it wasn’t the Gloria set to the Christmas carol. It was the actual Christmas carol. Worse yet, it was a bilingual version of it, so, it was the extended version. Those of you who like to sing every verse of hymns (as indicated in another thread) may think twice if you have to experience this.

The bishop didn’t even seem to mind and enjoyed it. I was in the sacristy almost in tears as my rector was trying to calm me down. I knew that we had set a very bad precedent and I blamed myself for not having the guts to nip the thing in the bud. Other than that infraction, everything went well. It’s just that the next year, when I helped out at my dad’s parish, his pastor decided to do the same thing with the argumeht thatit had been done at the Cathedral.

So now, I hope that y’all will see where I am coming from when it comes to sacred music and tinkering around with things. When you set a bad precedent, it rears its ugly head and follows you around like a bad penny. When I witnessed this same incident repeat itself at my dad’s parish this year, I kept striking my breast and blaming myself.

That’'s why I swore that when given the chance, I would do my best to keep this styff from happening again in my neck of the woods and informing others about the dangers of not reading the documents and just merely going by the spirit of things. That’s why I am very adament that when we do have another litugy committee, that all of us are on the same page as the Holy See is when it comes to the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass.

That is why I am passionate about things. I’ve been down that long dark road and I don’t want to see anyone mistakenly trod where I’ve gone.

 

[Phemie]

How I can sympathize! Why is it that Christmas and Easter bring out the worst that liturgists can invent?

I remember being home for Christmas of '03. Rather than attend the anticipated Midnight Mass in my village parish, the only Christmas Mass celebrated there because we have 1 priest serving 4 different communities, I went to Midnight Mass at the parish in town. At that Mass the Gloria was replaced by ‘Angels…’ in the way you experienced and there were all kinds of other weird and not so wonderful things going on: everyone said the doxology, everyone spoke the prayer between the Our Father and 'For the kingdom, the power…", etc.

It got even worse on the Feast of Mary, Mother of God when not only was the Gloria replaced by 'Angels…", the Psalm was replaced with a hymn to Mary.

 

[JimG]

It would seem that Mass can be celebrated without the existence of a liturgy committee. Otherwise the Lord would have had to have formed one for the Last Supper, and passed down a GIRM to Peter and the Apostles. Still, liturgy committees can sometimes be useful. But apparently, like all committees, they can also be detrimental.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

It would seem that Mass can be celebrated without the existence of a liturgy committee. Otherwise the Lord would have had to have formed one for the Last Supper, and passed down a GIRM to Peter and the Apostles. Still, liturgy committees can sometimes be useful. But apparently, like all committees, they can also be detrimental.

Well, in a sense, the Lord did form a liturgy committee. He sent two apostles ahead, to procure a place to have the Passover, and set up the essentials.

Jim

 

[pprimeau1976]

Your last ponit is very true. I love Duran Duran, myself, but, I certainly don’t want my parish music sounding like it came from Nick Rhodes’ synthesizer (techno pop).

Now, regarding the issue of standing during the entire Eucharistic Prayer, that is not the norm. The norm calls for kneeling from the beginning of the Eucharistic prayer to after the doxology. In the United States, we are to remain kneeling even after the Memorial Acclamation. What your parish is practicing, assuming it is a Latin Rite parish, certainly goes against the norms.

I know its not the norm, but the Worship director (who is also the Music director) has a habit of showing of his knowledge of what practices were in use at what time, etc. etc. What he doesn’t understand is that unless you are a person that actually has some weight in convincing the *proper authorities *of what is liturgically acceptable, all of this knowledge in liturgy is trivial and not applicable at the parish level. The only knowledge that is applicable is the knowledge of the current liturgy because that’s the one that the Church gave us to use.

 

[PaixGioiaAmor]

I know its not the norm, but the Worship director (who is also the Music director) has a habit of showing of his knowledge of what practices were in use at what time, etc. etc. What he doesn’t understand is that unless you are a person that actually has some weight in convincing the *proper authorities *of what is liturgically acceptable, all of this knowledge in liturgy is trivial and not applicable at the parish level. The only knowledge that is applicable is the knowledge of the current liturgy because that’s the one that the Church gave us to use.

And perhaps even if he WAS, it would still be so; Our diocessan liturgist advised our former bishop to make standing for the Communion Rite the normative posture, in accord with what is allowed in the GIRM, and some have simply labled the bishop a nutty liberal for following the council of an educated liturgist.

 

[benedictgal]

And perhaps even if he WAS, it would still be so; Our diocessan liturgist advised our former bishop to make standing for the Communion Rite the normative posture, in accord with what is allowed in the GIRM, and some have simply labled the bishop a nutty liberal for following the council of an educated liturgist.

However, inasmuch as it is in the GIRM, the United States’ adaptation call for kneeling, so perhaps your diocesan liturgist didn’t read that part. Therefore, while kneeling is in the GIRM, we go by what the adapation is for the United States.

There are perhaps some people who have a problem with kneeling (and it’s not arthritic, I assure you). The former Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger made some very keen observations on the issue of kneeling:

It may well be that kneeling is alien to modern culture – insofar as it is a culture, for this culture has turned away from the faith and no longer knows the one before whom kneeling is the right, indeed the intrinsically necessary gesture. The man who learns to believe learns also to kneel, and a faith or a liturgy no longer familiar with kneeling would be sick at the core. Where it has been lost, kneeling must be rediscovered, so that, in our prayer, we remain in fellowship with the apostles and martyrs, in fellowship with the whole cosmos, indeed in union with Jesus Christ Himself.

This comes from the book, the Spirit of the Liturgy, written by a highly educated and extremely competent man who just happens to occupy the Chair of St. Peter. I would also venture to state that this book should be required reading for liturgical committees because it concentrates on the correct theology of why the Church does what she does. I keep this book very handy along with my copies of the GIRM, Redemptionis Sacramentum, Musica Sacram, and the Constitution on Sacred Liturgy. It helps to look at both the practical and the theological when looking at liturgy.

 

[PaixGioiaAmor]

The GIRM stated that the posture would be kneeling “unless the diocessan bishop determines otherwise.” He was within his authority under the GIRM to do so.

 

[JimG]

Well, in a sense, the Lord did form a liturgy committee. He sent two apostles ahead, to procure a place to have the Passover, and set up the essentials.

Jim

Yes, I guess you’re right about that. I hope they didn’t have to spend too much time discussing whether to have public displays of affection at the sign of peace.

 

[benedictgal]

The GIRM stated that the posture would be kneeling “unless the diocessan bishop determines otherwise.” He was within his authority under the GIRM to do so.

But, only because the diocesan liturgical director suggested it to him. You mentioned that in your post. Needless to say, the adaptation for the United States is to kneel. Your former bishop was acting on someone else’s suggestion.

As I noted in my earlier post, it is wise for liturgical committees, whether they are at the parish level or at the diocesan level, to read books that explain the theological reasoning as to why the Church does what she does in the liturgy. It gives us a better understanding of things. We can quote the GIRM, RS and the Constitution on Sacred Liturgy till the Lord returns, but, if we don’t have the proper catechetical formation, it’s not going to mean much.

While my library is 80% Ratzinger/Benedict, I also have books by Scott Hahn, Msgr. Romano Guardini, Dom Alcuin Reid and even Gabe Huck (who went a little off the deep end on some things). For a while, I subscribed to Ministry and Liturgy until I perceived the format to be contraty to the direction Benedict is guiding us towards. Some of the articles were not very favorable.towards him even when he was Cardinal Ratzinger.

It might also be a good idea to keep a liturgical library for your parish to use. Get some good reference books (the GIRM, Redemptionis Sacramentum, the Constitution on Sacred Liturgy, Musica Sacram, Sacramentum Caritatis, encyclicals that John Paul II wrote on the Eucharist, and TLM resources) and Pope Benedict’s books on the liturgy as well as those written by Msgr. Romano Guardini. These resources can provide ready reference and answer basic questions. It is also wise to have a little red book called Ceremonial for Bishops handy because you never know when your Ordinary or Metropolitan may decide to visit your parish. This little book, written by now-Bishop Peter Elliot gives you the how-to on what to do when the bishop comes a-calling.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

Yes, I guess you’re right about that. I hope they didn’t have to spend too much time discussing whether to have public displays of affection at the sign of peace.

Only if they could’ve consulted this forum first.

Jim

 

[AlexV]

Show me someone who can’t utter a sentence about the liturgy without using some version of the word “norm” (“normative” being most common), and I’ll show you a liturgical fascist.

It’s amazing how for centuries the official rituals and rubrics did not precisely define posture issues for the laity at Mass, and things moved along just fine. Only relatively recently have postures at Mass become badges of alleged schism and disobedience.