Liturgy of the Hours / OOR Questions

[rpp]

I have additonal question and not to highjack this thread, but have you noticed in the LOTH how many hymns have as there last verse references to the Holy Trinity? I’m not complaining. I like it but why?

I have noticed it too! I

t is quite a shock after spending all that time with the Oregon Catholic Press Music Issue filled with stuff from the St. Louis Jesuits. I think there are like 5 hymns in that book that were written before Vatican II! Yuk! (Yes I know that’s an exageration; there might be 10 .)

 

[mjdvike]

Hi -

Some LotH questions. I’m just a lay person trying to augment my personal prayer life this way.

Quick question about the Office of Readings. From time to time I try to read these (I have the one volume Christian Prayer), but according to the St. Joseph’s Guide that my book comes with, the same reading comes up way too often for me to be sure that I’m picking the readings the right way. Am I supposed to just read the two readings that begin on the pages indicated in the guide? Or am I doing something wrong? I fear its the latter since there are all kinds of readings there but I keep getting the same two.

Say I don’t get around to Evening Prayer around supper time, but will pray before bedtime. Is it better to read the Evening Prayer or Night Prayer in this situation? Or is it just up to me?

Say I sleep in and don’t do the Invitatory and Morning Prayer that day. Am I to tack on the Invitatory to my first LotH prayer of the day in any event, or do I then skip the Invitatory and just stick with the “O God Come to my Assistance” versicle?

I know for lay people there probably aren’t hard rules for this, but I wanted to seek some advice about the OOR thing first of all, and then what the best practise is for some of these situations I’ve found myself in.

The LotH was prayed at one time by all Christians in community (in the home communities - and later in the churches). Slowly, the monks and clerics complicated the LotH to the point that laypeople were actually discouraged from participation. Fortunately we are once more being encouraged to pray this liturgical prayer. As more people use it as part of their personal prayer life, more parishes are incorporating it into the public liturgical prayer of the parishes.

The OOR (Office of Readings) in the guide just shows you the page where the OOR start the biblical and non-biblical readings. You can choose any of the OOR - they are arranged according to the liturgical season. There isn’t a SPECIFIC OOR for each day of the year. You get to pick. The psalms for each day are specified - but not the readings themselves.

Remember that you are to do the Psalms that apply to the Psalter week - for example, the Psalter week for the 14th week in Ordinary time is Psalter Week II, so the OOR Psalms would be the ones for Week II in the OOR section of Christian Prayer - and then add the Readings themselves (biblical/non-biblical).

www.universalis.com are a great to do the LotH when at the office, etc. at lunch or breaks. When you go there, it pops up with the appropriate hour - if you want OOR, you click on that.

I found when I started to use Christian Prayer (and as I have helped others to start using it) that you can actually overwhelm yourself with the complexity if you think you are going to do all the Hours. Don’t take on more than you can commit yourself to on a regular basis.

I recommend starting with Morning and/or Evening Prayer until one feels comfortable doing it every day. One may want to add Night Prayer (Compline) - and then the OOR - if you have (or can make) the time in your day. Also…the first hour said each day is always preceded by the Invitatory Psalm (most use Ps 95 always - but you can use 24, 67 or 100 in its place).

Praying should bring you peace - don’t overburden yourself!

PEACE.

 

[rpp]

I have never looked at www.universalis.com before. I looked at it just and noticed right away that they are using a different translation than the approved text in either the single volume Christian Prayer or the full four-volume LOTH set. Where did they get their text? Is that translation approved?

Opening Antiphon
“God come to my assistance” LOTH
“God come to my aid” Universalis

First few strophs of Canticle of Zechariah
LOTH

Blessed be the Lord, the God of Israel,
he has come to his people and set them free.
He has raised up for us a mighty savior,
born of the house of his servent David.

Through his holy prophets he promised of old
that he would save us from our enemies,
from the hands of all who hate us.
He promised to show mercy to our fathers
and to remember his holy covenant.

This was the oath he swore to our father Abraham:
to set us free from the hands of our enemies,
free to worship him without fear
holy and righteous in his sight all the days of our life.

Universalis.com

Blessed be the Lord, the God of Israel, for he has come to his people and brought about their redemption.
He has raised up the sign of salvation in the house of his servant David,
as he promised through the mouth of the holy ones, his prophets through the ages:
to rescue us from our enemies and all who hate us, to take pity on our fathers,
to remember his holy covenant and the oath he swore to Abraham our father,
that he would give himself to us, that we could serve him without fear – freed from the hands of our enemies –
in uprightness and holiness before him, for all of our days.

The differences are striking. Even to the point of reorganizing the the text in addition to different word choices. Is the text used by Univeralis approved? Where did it come from? I looked on their web site but could not find the source.

Another site, which requires a paid subscription but the cost is very modest, uses the same text as the LOTH books. It is liturgyhours.org/

 

[rpp]

The OOR (Office of Readings) in the guide just shows you the page where the OOR start the biblical and non-biblical readings. You can choose any of the OOR - they are arranged according to the liturgical season. There isn’t a SPECIFIC OOR for each day of the year. You get to pick. The psalms for each day are specified - but not the readings themselves.

This is true only with the one volume Christian Prayer. For the 4-volume set, the readings are specific for the liturgical day.

One of the other reasons I like the 4-volume set better than Christian Prayer (they both use the same text) is that the antiphons are repeated at the end of each psalm so there is less page-flipping and you will say the antiphon at the correct place.

But whichever you use, it is a wonderful prayer. Expecially if you are in one of times of arid prayers.

 

[ricmat]

This is true only with the one volume Christian Prayer. For the 4-volume set, the readings are specific for the liturgical day.

One of the other reasons I like the 4-volume set better than Christian Prayer (they both use the same text) is that the antiphons are repeated at the end of each psalm so there is less page-flipping and you will say the antiphon at the correct place.

But whichever you use, it is a wonderful prayer. Expecially if you are in one of times of arid prayers.

I thought the antiphons at the beginning were required, and at the end were optional.

Also, does anyone know if the “Glory to…” is said before or after the antiphon at the end, assuming you actually say the antiphon at the end?

So far as universalis, they are based in the UK, and I think I read there that it is the UK readings they use. Again, based on recollection, the psalms are their own translation and the other readings are based on the JB or NJB. I download a week at a time (free) to my Palm, and use that when my (USA) Christian Prayer book is not handy.

It would be nice if somebody were to do a typical morning or evening prayer, and put it on youtube as an example (i.e. withoug abbreviations).

 

[PhilotheaZ]

I have never looked at www.universalis.com before. I looked at it just and noticed right away that they are using a different translation than the approved text in either the single volume Christian Prayer or the full four-volume LOTH set. Where did they get their text? Is that translation approved? … Is the text used by Univeralis approved? Where did it come from? I looked on their web site but could not find the source.

If you look at the FAQ’s on the Universalis website universalis.com/faq.htm , you will find this:

What translations are you using?
The Scripture readings are from the Jerusalem Bible. The psalms are our own specially-commissioned translation. The translations of the non-biblical readings of the Office of Readings are from various sources.

Why not use another translation?
Partly because the proprietors of other translations are terrified of exposing their work to the Internet, but mostly because we believe ours to be better for its purpose, which is private recitation and meditation.

I have an obligation to recite the Office. Can I use your site?
We are happy for you to do this. However, you should bear in mind that our versions of the texts are not all officially approved translations, and that some parts of the Liturgy (eg. responsories, antiphons, concluding prayers) are not yet present on the site. [The Bible texts are from the Jerusalem Bible, which is officially approved for liturgical use in the United Kingdom and possibly elsewhere.] How much this affects you is up to your conscience and to the conscience of those who imposed the obligation on you. You might feel that this site was a resource to be used in the absence of your breviary, but not as a substitute for it if you had it with you.
My personal take on this: the Liturgy of the Hours is part of the official prayer of the Church. When we are praying it, we are praying with the universal Church and for the Church. I would rather pray using an approved translation. Universalis does not have an approved translation of the psalms.

 

[dank]

Thanks all for the answers. Two more questions, and a bit of an answer from me:

1. 
   *]Is the Glory Be supposed to said at the end of all psalms and canticles, except those that specifically say “do not say the Glory Be”?
   *]Is it Glory Be - Psalm Prayer - Repeat Antiphon, or Glory Be - Repeat Antiphon - Psalm Prayer ? (I think I read that both are permitted).
   
   
   ricmat:
   

   It would be nice if somebody were to do a typical morning or evening prayer, and put it on youtube as an example (i.e. withoug abbreviations).

   There is a podcast “Pray Station Portable” which does this by mp3 for morning and evening prayers which I found indispensable for trying to figure out how it was all meant to go. I have no idea whether what they do is “right” or not, but from everything I’ve continued to read it seems to be. The RSS feed is feeds.feedburner.com/praystationportable and it’s availble in iTunes.

 

[PhilotheaZ]

1. 
   *]Is the Glory Be supposed to said at the end of all psalms and canticles, except those that specifically say “do not say the Glory Be”?
   *]Is it Glory Be - Psalm Prayer - Repeat Antiphon, or Glory Be - Repeat Antiphon - Psalm Prayer ? (I think I read that both are permitted).

1. 1. 
      *]Yes, the “Glory to the Father” is said at the end of all psalms and canticles unless otherwise noted (e.g., the end of the second psalm for Sunday Morning Week I already includes a Trinitarian prayer, so the “Glory” would be repetitious.)
      *]It’s Glory - Psalm Prayer - Repeat Antiphon (wherever I’ve heard it). Many people (individuals and religious communities) omit the Psalm Prayers, though — they are optional.

 

[rpp]

If you look at the FAQ’s on the Universalis website universalis.com/faq.htm , you will find this:
{~snip~}

My personal take on this: the Liturgy of the Hours is part of the official prayer of the Church. When we are praying it, we are praying with the universal Church and for the Church. I would rather pray using an approved translation. Universalis does not have an approved translation of the psalms.

Thank you. I missed that link.

I am so with you on your conclusion. While I think it is great that they put this on the internet, I will stick with the approved text. Which, by the way, is the text used on liturgyhours.org/

Finally I would say that while it is nice to have the LOTH on the internet, there is nothing like holding that prayer book in your hands.

 

[ricmat]

There is a podcast “Pray Station Portable” which does this by mp3 for morning and evening prayers which I found indispensable for trying to figure out how it was all meant to go. I have no idea whether what they do is “right” or not, but from everything I’ve continued to read it seems to be. The RSS feed is feeds.feedburner.com/praystationportable and it’s availble in iTunes.

The site looks terrific.

I just listened to evening prayer for today, and noticed that the responsory is done differently than was suggested by a poster above (to one of my questions - i.e. the entire refrain was NOT spoken in the second verse). I’ve looked at a number of sites on LOTH, and it seems that most of them have some comment like “If you think we’re doing this wrong, send us an email…” I DO hope that there is some officially correct way to do it, and it’s just us non-professionals that don’t quite have it down yet

But the link you posted is certainly very very good.

 

[Joe_Kelley]

I thought the antiphons at the beginning were required, and at the end were optional.

Also, does anyone know if the “Glory to…” is said before or after the antiphon at the end, assuming you actually say the antiphon at the end?

. . .).

It is my understanding that the Glory Be . . . should be said immediately after the psalm or canticle, then the psalm prayer [if desired] then the antiphon. The antiphon should be said at the beginning and end, but may be omitted between stanzas.

 

[porthos11]

As a Lay Carmelite I say Lauds,Vespers, and Compline (from the 4 vol set.)

My question is, how are we supposed to interpret the rubric that I quoted from the GILH? I’m not concerned with the practice of any particular religious community but the canonical import of the quoted rubric.

It basically means that if you start your day with Morning Prayer, you can merely say, “Lord, open my lips. And my mouth will proclaim your praise” then jump directly to the hymn of Morning Prayer, skipping the Invitatory Psalm altogether.

That is, however, something I never do. I even repeat the antiphon between strophes even though I pray it alone.

 

[porthos11]

I have never looked at www.universalis.com before. I looked at it just and noticed right away that they are using a different translation than the approved text in either the single volume Christian Prayer or the full four-volume LOTH set. Where did they get their text? Is that translation approved?

I never miss an opportunity to diss Universalis. They do not use the proper translation, and they do not have antiphons, which are integral to the Divine Office. Antiphons may NEVER be omitted.

So whenever possible, I always reiterate: if you want to pray the Divine Office as Divine Office, do not use Universalis.

 

[dank]

Sorry, I’m now confused about the responsory. Is it correct to do the responsory just in the way it is written in the breviary, or in the second strophe/stanza are we supposed to fill in more of the first verse than is written? In my parish, during vespers they just read it (in this alternating pattern) as written. I know sometimes in the breviary they abbreviate the introductory versicle, but I didn’t think the responsory is abbreviated in any way. (Referring to #14 in this thread).

Another question I have had is about postures. Aside from the sign of the cross at the beginning, what are the other gestures and postures?

Sorry for all the questions but I think a lot of people would like to know this stuff.

The latter choice you gave is the correct one. In the Responsory, this is the usual pattern: a two-part verse is said and repeated in full (in a monastery this would be two “choirs” alternating), then a new “first half” of a verse is introduced and the “second half” of the original verse completes it. (I hope that makes sense!)

A further point — moving on to the next part of the Responsory, only the first half of the “Glory to the Father” is said (up to the word “Spirit”) before the original verse is repeated again.

 

[porthos11]

Sorry, I’m now confused about the responsory. Is it correct to do the responsory just in the way it is written in the breviary, or in the second strophe/stanza are we supposed to fill in more of the first verse than is written?

You say it as printed viz:

Keep us O Lord, as the apple of your eye.
– Keep us O Lord, as the apple of your eye.

Gather us under the shadow of your wings and keep us
– As the apple of your eye.

Glory to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit.
– Keep us O Lord as the apple of your eye.

Another question I have had is about postures. Aside from the sign of the cross at the beginning, what are the other gestures and postures?

Sign of the cross with thumb on lips as “Lord open my lips.”
Sign of the cross on self at “God come to my assistance.”
Sign of the cross on self as you begin the Benedictus, Magnificat, and Nunc Dimittis.
Sign of the cross on self at “May the Lord bless us, protect us from evil, and bring us to everlasting life” in individual recitation or celebration without a priest or deacon.

 

[PhilotheaZ]

Another question I have had is about postures. Aside from the sign of the cross at the beginning, what are the other gestures and postures?

In group recitation, it is customary to stand at the very beginning (e.g., “God come to my assistance” through the end of the first hymn) and during the Benedictus, Magnificat, and Nunc Dimittis.

It is also customary to bow (even from a sitting position) at the words “Glory to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit,” rising again for “as it was in the beginning …”.

 

[hilde_the_dog]

Porthos11

Where are the instructions on crossing oneself. Did I miss that. I wish there was a good guide.

 

[Beachcomber]

This has been a helpful thread. I tried the LOTH and I got hopelessly confused. Even the instructions didn’t help too much; but after reading these posts from people who are actively using the Divine Office, things are clearer.

I never realized that OOR could be said any time of the day, for example. I had the idea it replaced Matins and was thus said in the middle of the night.

Thanks, posters. You’ve been very helpful.

 

[dank]

Thanks everybody for the answers. I’m clear on the stuff that I was really guessing about.

One thing I noticed today was that in the one volume Christian Prayer, the Daytime Prayer has only one psalmody and then separate readings and prayers depending on which hour you’re praying. OK. But there is a curious remark in red after the psalms that says something like “At the other hours, use the complementary psalmody from the ordinary.” Then if you flip a few pages, you find a section with the complementary psalmodies which are designated midmorning, midday, and midafternoon. So I’m left wondering what on Earth it’s talking about.

Am I right in guessing that they do this in case you want to do more than one daytime hour, so that you don’t say the same psalms over again?

 

[PhilotheaZ]

Am I right in guessing that they do this in case you want to do more than one daytime hour, so that you don’t say the same psalms over again?

Yes, that’s exactly right. You use the psalms for the day for one of the three daytime hours, and the Complementary Psalmody for the others.

Although I have seen a religious community (when I was on retreat) that prays all three daytime hours also substitute psalms from another week. For example, if it is Wednesday of Week II and the Daytime Prayer psalms for that day have already been prayed, they will use psalms from Wednesday Week I, III, or IV instead.

I guess there is some flexibility in this.