Liturgy of the Hours / OOR Questions

[tee_eff_em]

I have additonal question and not to highjack this thread, but have you noticed in the LOTH how many hymns have as there last verse references to the Holy Trinity? I’m not complaining. I like it but why?

For the same reason that the *Gloria Patri *is added at the end of the psalms and canticles. But it is more poetic and stylistic to include it in the hymn.

tee

 

[drforjc]

You say it as printed viz:

Keep us O Lord, as the apple of your eye.
– Keep us O Lord, as the apple of your eye.

Gather us under the shadow of your wings and keep us
– As the apple of your eye.

Glory to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit.
– Keep us O Lord as the apple of your eye.

Sign of the cross with thumb on lips as “Lord open my lips.”
Sign of the cross on self at “God come to my assistance.”
Sign of the cross on self as you begin the Benedictus, Magnificat, and Nunc Dimittis.
Sign of the cross on self at “May the Lord bless us, protect us from evil, and bring us to everlasting life” in individual recitation or celebration without a priest or deacon.

Remember, though, that RE: the responsory, para. 171 of the GILH indicates “the part that is usually repeated may be omitted if it is not sung, unless the meaning requires it.”

 

[LilyM]

Sorry, this is not answering my question.
.
The invitatory psalm with its antiphon may be omitted, however, when the invitatory is the prelude to morning prayer.

Why would the Invitatory be “the prelude to morning prayer” if you had already said it before OOR?

Not simple at all, to me.

Not simple but understandable, I think, with some cogitation. Consider that you can, and some people do, say OOR for the following day during the time after Evening Prayer, (ie post 6pm) but before midnight.

If you said OOR at this time and also said the invitatory with it, you then, I believe, wouldn’t be required to repeat it in the morning with your Morning Prayer.

However, some might not realise that this is the case even if OOR is said the night before, and so would think they had to precede both OOR and Morning Prayer with the Invitatory.

That seems to me to be the gist of the rule.

 

[mjdvike]

I thought the antiphons at the beginning were required, and at the end were optional.

Also, does anyone know if the “Glory to…” is said before or after the antiphon at the end, assuming you actually say the antiphon at the end?

So far as universalis, they are based in the UK, and I think I read there that it is the UK readings they use. Again, based on recollection, the psalms are their own translation and the other readings are based on the JB or NJB. I download a week at a time (free) to my Palm, and use that when my (USA) Christian Prayer book is not handy.

It would be nice if somebody were to do a typical morning or evening prayer, and put it on youtube as an example (i.e. withoug abbreviations).

If you notice at the bottom of the universalis page they refer that the translation of Scriptures used is the Jerusalem Bible. As far as the ‘Glory…’ it normally follows the antiphons (unless the instructions for the day specifically indicate that it is not to be said.

Just a quick note on this - have been out of touch for a while. Sorry if it has already been answered in a post after yours.

 

[drforjc]

Not simple but understandable, I think, with some cogitation. Consider that you can, and some people do, say OOR for the following day during the time after Evening Prayer, (ie post 6pm) but before midnight.

If you said OOR at this time and also said the invitatory with it, you then, I believe, wouldn’t be required to repeat it in the morning with your Morning Prayer.

However, some might not realise that this is the case even if OOR is said the night before, and so would think they had to precede both OOR and Morning Prayer with the Invitatory.

That seems to me to be the gist of the rule.

Again, this could be the correct interpretation, but would it not have been much more clear if they had added something to the effect of " if the Invitatory has been said the previous evening, it may be omitted the following day before morning prayer?"

 

[AlexV]

It’s not brain surgery.

If you begin the day with Lauds, the Invitatory is optional.

If you begin the day with Matins, it’s not optional.

Case closed.

 

[rpp]

It’s not brain surgery.

If you begin the day with Lauds, the Invitatory is optional.

If you begin the day with Matins, it’s not optional.

Case closed.

While I appreciate such unequivocal statements like the above, it is not entirely accurate.

The Invitatory is never optional.

Correctly stated the above woiuld read:

If you begin the day with Lauds (Morning Prayer), say the Invitatory first.

If you begin the day with Matins (Office of Readings), say the Invitatory first.

Case closed.

 

[tee_eff_em]

As far as the ‘Glory…’ it normally follows the antiphons (unless the instructions for the day specifically indicate that it is not to be said.

This is incorrect. The antiphon is repeated after the Gloria Patri.

tee

 

[AlexV]

Rpp is wrong; the revised Liturgia Horarum allows you to omit the Invitatory, if you begin your day’s Office with Lauds.

I don’t see why you’d make a big deal about omitting it, but you may. That’s because historically it came before Matins.

Case closed.

 

[rpp]

Rpp is wrong; the revised Liturgia Horarum allows you to omit the Invitatory, if you begin your day’s Office with Lauds.

I don’t see why you’d make a big deal about omitting it, but you may. That’s because historically it came before Matins.

Case closed.

Hmm, I am looking at the rubrics in my breviary (found in volume 1), and they do not say that.

Can you provide a link? Thank you.

 

[AlexV]

Don’t have my Latin text in front of me. Probably mentioned in the Ordinary.

 

[rpp]

Don’t have my Latin text in front of me. Probably mentioned in the Ordinary.

An interesting and revealing answer.

I did manage to find these:

chastitysf.com/loh.htm#genINV
ewtn.com/expert/answers/breviary.htm
carr.org/~meripper/faith/lithours.htm#Invitatory
isi.edu/~chiang/personal/hours.html

And here is an electronic copy of the rubrics. This link should take you right to the section on the Invitatory. If the link misses, look at paragraphs 34 - 36. This link is definitive.
ewtn.com/library/curia/cdwgilh.htm#Ch%20II-I

I found these by googling the phrase “When to say the Invitatory Liturgy of the Hours”.

None of the resulting links I looked at described the Invitatory as being optional.

Nowhere in the rubrics say the Invitatory is optional. The Invitatory is always the first prayer.

 

[AlexV]

Don’t have it in front of me, but I remember quite clearly that the Invitatory is able to omitted (Latin omitti potest) if it precedes Morning Prayer.

 

[AlexV]

Gee, some people can’t read rubrics at all.

I spend about 10 seconds checking the rubrics YOU provided, and as I stated messages ago, I was right:

1. The invitatory is placed at the beginning of the whole sequence of the day’s prayer, that is, it precedes either morning prayer or the office of readings, whichever of these liturgical rites begins the day. The invitatory psalm with its antiphon may be omitted, however, when the invitatory is the prelude to morning prayer.

Clear as day.

Case closed, finally.

 

[rpp]

Gee, some people can’t read rubrics at all.

I spend about 10 seconds checking the rubrics YOU provided, and as I stated messages ago, I was right:

1. The invitatory is placed at the beginning of the whole sequence of the day’s prayer, that is, it precedes either morning prayer or the office of readings, whichever of these liturgical rites begins the day. The invitatory psalm with its antiphon may be omitted, however, when the invitatory is the prelude to morning prayer.

Clear as day.

Case closed, finally.

Sometimes my (lack of) powers of observation even amaze myself!
:doh2: I stand corrected. I think I need to check my bi-focals.

I will say that I pray Lauds with a community of Franciscan nuns each morning before Mass (their convent is close to my office) and the Invitatory is never omitted. I think this rubric would probably surprise them. Perhaps it is one of those “permitted but rarely done” things.

 

[porthos11]

The invitatory is not optional either for the Office of Readings or Morning Prayer if either of these are used to begin the day.

However, the invitatory psalm is indeed optional if it precedes Morning Prayer (not the OOR). The source for this is the GILH no. 35.

1. The invitatory is placed at the beginning of the whole sequence of the day’s prayer, that is, it precedes either morning prayer or the office of readings, whichever of these liturgical rites begins the day. The invitatory psalm with its antiphon may be omitted, however, when the invitatory is the prelude to morning prayer.

This essentially means that when you start your day with Morning Prayer, it is permissible to say “Lord, open my lips/ and my mouth will proclaim your praise” then go directly to the hymn for Morning Prayer.

This cannot be done with the Office of Readings.

 

[drforjc]

The invitatory is not optional either for the Office of Readings or Morning Prayer if either of these are used to begin the day.

However, the invitatory psalm is indeed optional if it precedes Morning Prayer (not the OOR). The source for this is the GILH no. 35.

This essentially means that when you start your day with Morning Prayer, it is permissible to say “Lord, open my lips/ and my mouth will proclaim your praise” then go directly to the hymn for Morning Prayer.

This cannot be done with the Office of Readings.

That makes more sense.

 

[Sabda]

This has definitely been a MOST helpful thread! I didn’t know about the postures, that helps.

I also have a question. I use the Christian Prayer book. In the Invitatory Psalm what antiphons are you supposed to use for Ordinary Time? On the previous page it gives you a list for Advent, Christmas, Lent, Easter, etc. but it does not tell you what the ones for Ordinary Time are. Are those supposed to be the first antiphon recited that day? For example the first antiphon tomorrow is “Come into the Lord’s presence singing for joy.” Is that the antiphon that you would use in the Invitatory Psalm?

 

[PhilotheaZ]

For example the first antiphon tomorrow is “Come into the Lord’s presence singing for joy.” Is that the antiphon that you would use in the Invitatory Psalm?

Yes, that is the antiphon for the Invitatory tomorrow (Thursday Week IV).

 

[dank]

Since tomorrow is a Memorial, would it not be
“Come, let us worship God, wonderful in his saints (alleluia)”
or
“Let us sing praise to God, as we acclaim Saints Joachim and Ann (alleluia)”
?

One thing I haven’t been able to work out is when the alleluias here are said. My guess is that it is on Solemnities, not Memorials or Feast days, nor ever during Lent. (What about Sundays?) Maybe somebody knows the answer?