Liturgy of the Hours Questions

[ricmat]

Thanks for the links, ricmat, now I can make sure I’ve got the right readings by comparing to the audio on that website.

One caveat - I’ve looked at a lot of LOTH web sites, and all of them make some disclaimer to the effect of “If you think we’ve made a mistake, please let us know…”

Which means to me, they’re not absolutely sure themselves what the correct readings, or antiphons, or page numbers are.

It would be useful if the USCCB or the Vatican would release some official list of page numbers for each day on the web.

 

[mercygate]

One caveat - I’ve looked at a lot of LOTH web sites, and all of them make some disclaimer to the effect of “If you think we’ve made a mistake, please let us know…”

Which means to me, they’re not absolutely sure themselves what the correct readings, or antiphons, or page numbers are.

It would be useful if the USCCB or the Vatican would release some official list of page numbers for each day on the web.

This is “gold” for the 4-volume set: stfrancisdesales.com/liturgy.php

 

[DebChris]

I learned about LOTH while on my first retreat. I own the single volume Christian Prayer which is what the Marianists used.
My singing voice, except in my prayer language, is horrid. I do the best I can when singing the songs. I select one of those listed. Generally there are only two although I know that for some of the Seasonal Hours and for Compline (or night prayer) there are considerably more. I tend to choose something with which I am familiar, if listed.
I learned to chant while on a discernment retreat with the Lay Cistercians in Conyers. Before that I merely recited the prayers.
The main hours are Lauds (Morning Prayer) and Vespers (Evening Prayer) which are prayed at 6am and 6pm respectfully. I also carry a Shorter Christian Prayer for times when I may not be home in time for Vespers. Shorter Christian Prayer only has Morning and Evening Prayer.
Prime was surpressed by Vatican II which encouraged LOTH to be prayed not only by religious but by lay persons as well.
It is my understanding that the 4 volume LOTH has daily non-Biblical readings for the Office of the Readings while the single volume has a limited number. What I do for non-Biblical readings is read a spiritual classic or other book that will help me in my spiritual development. This is follows advice from my spiritual director and is apparently what many religious houses do. That way everybody in the community is reading the same book whether it be Dark Night of the Soul, Confessions of Augustine, or Philosophy of Life. This reading of a single section, or chapter as part of my daily prayer helps me remember what I have read better. I recently purchased a book of poems from Dove Publishing that I use in lieu of a song for the Office of Readings.
I also glued a copy of the Canticle of Zachariah and the Magnificat taken from the Magnificat to the back cover to help with the flow of the LOTH.
My single piece of advice is to relax. Your efforts will be rewarded.

 

[AJV]

While at it, I understand that the LOH in US are 4 volumes nad hte European’s are the 3 volumes? Are the contents the same? What about translations?

The 3 volume edition was originally translated from the Latin a year earlier than the ICEL version. The translations were copyrighted to the heirachies of England & Wales, Ireland, and Australia.

The volumes are

I- Advent, Christmas, Weeks 1–9 of Ordinary Time
II -Lent and Easter
III- rest of Ordinary Time

The contents are the same insofar as they are translated form the same Latin books, use the same sequence of psalms, and used in the same liturgical year with the same saints, etc. However the translations are different, For e.g. Thursday Psalm Week 4

UK (i.e. 3 volume)

Ant. 1 The Lord is my love and my refuge; in him I place my trust
Ant 2 Blessed the people whose God is the Lord
Ant 3 Victory and empire have now been won by our God

Responsory
R. The Lord is my shepherd; there is nothing I shall want. R,
V. Fresh and green are the pastures where he gives me repose * I shall not…
Glory be. R.

Mag. Ant. The Lord has satisfied and filled with good things those who hungered for justice.

ICEL (4 volume)
Ant. 1 He is my comfort and my refuge. In him I put my trust
Ant 2 Blessed are the people whose God is the Lord
Ant 3 Now the victorious reign of our God has begun

Responsory
R. The Lord is my shepherd; I shall want for nothing R.
V. He has brought me to green pastures * I shall …
Glory be. R.

Mag. Ant… If you hunger for holiness, God will satisfy your longing, good measure and flowing over

The prescribed hymns are also different since neither translates the hymns of the original Latin edition entirely.

The psalm version used is the same- the Grail psalms of 1963. There are 3 sources of the Canticles (Grail, Jerusalem Bible, RSV) while in the ICEL largely the NAB is used. Likewise for the Scripture Readings, the 3 volume may use any one of 5 translations (JB, RSV, Good News, Knox Bible, New English Version- generally the first two) while the ICEL uses the NAB

The 4 volume is a bit more user friendly I find. You do not have so much page flipping as in the UK version. The Ordinary is also shown quite nicely and clearly so one can see how the parts link together whereas with the UK version it is not apparent at all. The UK version has the slightly unsettling habit of putting some of its rubrics in funny places.

 

[passioncrosslov]

The 3 volume edition was originally translated from the Latin a year earlier than the ICEL version. The translations were copyrighted to the heirachies of England & Wales, Ireland, and Australia.

The volumes are

I- Advent, Christmas, Weeks 1–9 of Ordinary Time
II -Lent and Easter
III- rest of Ordinary Time

The contents are the same insofar as they are translated form the same Latin books, use the same sequence of psalms, and used in the same liturgical year with the same saints, etc. However the translations are different, For e.g. Thursday Psalm Week 4

UK (i.e. 3 volume)

The prescribed hymns are also different since neither translates the hymns of the original Latin edition entirely.

The psalm version used is the same- the Grail psalms of 1963. There are 3 sources of the Canticles (Grail, Jerusalem Bible, RSV) while in the ICEL largely the NAB is used. Likewise for the Scripture Readings, the 3 volume may use any one of 5 translations (JB, RSV, Good News, Knox Bible, New English Version- generally the first two) while the ICEL uses the NAB

The 4 volume is a bit more user friendly I find. You do not have so much page flipping as in the UK version. The Ordinary is also shown quite nicely and clearly so one can see how the parts link together whereas with the UK version it is not apparent at all. The UK version has the slightly unsettling habit of putting some of its rubrics in funny places.

Thanks, that really helped!

 

[Neil_Anthony]

What about Matins, do people really wake up in the middle of the night to say Matins? I believe that corresponds to the Office of Readings. I know you can say it anytime but the traditional time is supposed to be midnight, and if you’re getting up for the dawn to do Lauds/morning prayer i imagine you’d be going to bed early and have to get up at midnight

 

[richardwy]

The absence Matins and Vigil are discussed in the general directions.

It’s not a complicated book once you start doing it. I’ve prayed the Divine Office since just before I swam the Tiber. What a gift!

I’m faithful to Lauds and Compline. The little offices, Terce, None, and Sext, I rarely pray. Evening prayer seems to get lost in the shuffle of life as well.

I take joy that as I age, Evening prayer and the little offices will become part of my devotions.

I see and understand so much as a result of the Divine Office. At my morning table I have 4 x 8 cards with folks’ names on them and their needs.

Also, the Office of Readings is just tremendous too, especially during Holy Week.

 

[mercygate]

What about Matins, do people really wake up in the middle of the night to say Matins? I believe that corresponds to the Office of Readings. I know you can say it anytime but the traditional time is supposed to be midnight, and if you’re getting up for the dawn to do Lauds/morning prayer i imagine you’d be going to bed early and have to get up at midnight

All of the above. I set my clock for 4:00 a.m. to give myself an hour of LOTH & prayer time before I have to be up and moving at 5:00. The older I get, the more often I waken at midnight or any time between 1:00 and 3:00 a.m. When I do (9 days out of 10), I pray Vigils and Lauds (OOR & MP) and spend some time in meditative/contemplative prayer.

 

[richardwy]

I pray Vigils and Lauds (OOR & MP) and spend some time in meditative/contemplative prayer.

Wonderful!

And in my post above, I erred. Prime not Lauds in the AM for me.

 

[Neil_Anthony]

Wonderful!

And in my post above, I erred. Prime not Lauds in the AM for me.

Vatican II ‘abolished’ Prime, but can I still say morning prayer at 6am? They call Lauds morning prayer, but my morning used to start at 7, not 4 or 5, and 9am is NOT mid-morning for me. hehe. It used to be when I was arriving at work and starting my morning

 

[DebChris]

Vatican II ‘abolished’ Prime, but can I still say morning prayer at 6am? They call Lauds morning prayer, but my morning used to start at 7, not 4 or 5, and 9am is NOT mid-morning for me. hehe. It used to be when I was arriving at work and starting my morning

Lauds or Morning Prayer is at 6am. If it’s not 6am in your time zone it is in another. I try not to cross too many time zones; I might pray Evening Prayer at 7pm, for instance, instead of 6pm.
I usually start my morning with Lauds followed by the Office of the Readings.
One of the things I did was copy the prayer schedule from various women’s religious communities and modified the schedule to fit my lifestyle.
Vigils is 3am, Mid-morning 9am, Mid-Afternoon at 3pm=the schedule kept by the Cisterians at Conyers along with Mass and Noon prayer. Basically prayer times are every 3 hours so Compline would be 9pm.
I focus mostly on Lauds and Vespers and may or may not pray one of the other hours.

 

[DebChris]

What about Matins, do people really wake up in the middle of the night to say Matins? I believe that corresponds to the Office of Readings. I know you can say it anytime but the traditional time is supposed to be midnight, and if you’re getting up for the dawn to do Lauds/morning prayer i imagine you’d be going to bed early and have to get up at midnight

Since there was no electricity in the Middle Ages, how did they read Martins? Martin means morning but the prayer time is nocturnal according to the rule of St. Benedict.

 

[AJV]

Since there was no electricity in the Middle Ages, how did they read Martins? Martin means morning but the prayer time is nocturnal according to the rule of St. Benedict.

Candles, I presume, were used when chanting. But also the monks in those days were quite adept at learning the psalms by heart. I forgot whether it was St. Benedict or St. Dominic (or maybe it was neither but some saint) went with his monks along the road reciting the 150 psalms by heart.

Of course, that too depends on how early in the Middle Ages you go, I suppose.

 

[DebChris]

Candles, I presume, were used when chanting. But also the monks in those days were quite adept at learning the psalms by heart. I forgot whether it was St. Benedict or St. Dominic (or maybe it was neither but some saint) went with his monks along the road reciting the 150 psalms by heart.

Of course, that too depends on how early in the Middle Ages you go, I suppose.

That’s what I figured. The readings would would have been read. When the psalms are recited daily, they do become a part of you. I usually do not look at the Psalm of Zechariah or the Magnificat. It is the same way that various scripture verses just come to mind. “Who shall climb the mountain of the Lord? The one with clean hands and clean heart.”
St. Dominic helped spread the rosary which was begun by peasants who did not have the time to pray the psalms as the monks did.
St. Benedict in his Rule states that the brothers should recite all 150 psalms over the course of a week as many of the Church’s fathers did daily.

 

[Augustine]

Here are a few resources on the LOTH:

• Monthly guide, for both the single and four-volume sets: liturgyofthehours.org/todays_prayers.html.
• Tutorials
• Videos: liturgyofthehours.org/school_of_prayer.htm.
• Texts: prayer.rosaryshop.com (free, by e-mail).

HTH

 

[mercygate]

Vatican II ‘abolished’ Prime, but can I still say morning prayer at 6am? They call Lauds morning prayer, but my morning used to start at 7, not 4 or 5, and 9am is NOT mid-morning for me. hehe. It used to be when I was arriving at work and starting my morning

If you are not under an obligation to pray the hours “on time” you have a lot of flexibility. Certainly 6:00 a.m. is fine for MP.

I have a dispensation from my spiritual director to pray the daytime hours “whenever I can get 'em in” – usually before & after 7:00 a.m. Mass. Sometimes “on time”. Sometimes before dinner! For us who have an obligation to pray the Office, the obligation to pray the hours supersedes the desirability of praying them at the proper times.

 

[Neil_Anthony]

Wow that first tutorial is great!

One thing I’m noticing is that some people say the Antiphon after each paragraph in the psalm while other people don’t. But even the people who do say the antiphon each paragraph, for the canticle of Mary and canticle of Zachariah they only say the antiphon at start and end.

Does anyone say the antiphon for each verse in the cancicle of Mary?

Here are a few resources on the LOTH:

• Monthly guide, for both the single and four-volume sets: liturgyofthehours.org/todays_prayers.html.
• Tutorials
• Videos: liturgyofthehours.org/school_of_prayer.htm.
• Texts: prayer.rosaryshop.com (free, by e-mail).

HTH

 

[maryj]

If you are not under an obligation to pray the hours “on time” you have a lot of flexibility. Certainly 6:00 a.m. is fine for MP.

I have a dispensation from my spiritual director to pray the daytime hours “whenever I can get 'em in” – usually before & after 7:00 a.m. Mass. Sometimes “on time”. Sometimes before dinner! For us who have an obligation to pray the Office, the obligation to pray the hours supersedes the desirability of praying them at the proper times.

Even if I pray the LOTH at 7a.m. isn’t it 6a.m. somewhere? Why the specific hours?

 

[Augustine]

Wow that first tutorial is great!

I’m glad you liked it. I couldn’t have got into the LOTH more quickly. In mere 2 weeks I was quite comfortable with the ribbons thanks to this tutorial.

One thing I’m noticing is that some people say the Antiphon after each paragraph in the psalm while other people don’t. But even the people who do say the antiphon each paragraph, for the canticle of Mary and canticle of Zachariah they only say the antiphon at start and end.

Here’s the thing: the LOTH is primarily to be said in community, at least as I understand it. I have the impression that there’s some leeway in the specifics, though the general scheme is fixed. As I learned from this tutorial, some parts are optional, such as the psalm-prayers, the position of the antiphons other than the first one, etc. Therefore, I guess that how the antiphons are intertwined with the Psalms depends on the community habit. And in private recitation, I believe that you’re free to make optional whatever is optional. For example, when my time is short in the morning, I skip the optional psalm-prayers and responsory.

However, when the Pope was in Brazil, I happened to watch on EWTN he and the Latin American bishops say EP right after I had said mine. I found out that it was prayed just like I do: antiphon said before the Psalm and after the respective Gloria.

BTW, it really stroke me then the liturgical dimension of the LOTH watching the Pope pray the same words I had just prayed. I wish I knew he was going to and then I’d had waited to do together with him over the air waves. The LOTH is the prayer of the whole Church indeed!

 

[richardwy]

Vatican II ‘abolished’ Prime, but can I still say morning prayer at 6am? They call Lauds morning prayer, but my morning used to start at 7, not 4 or 5, and 9am is NOT mid-morning for me. hehe. It used to be when I was arriving at work and starting my morning

Thanks for the correction!