Liturgy of the word in two languages

[benedictgal]

But that section of the GIRM says the readings can’t be broken up the way the Passion is, it doesn’t say the readings can’t be repeated in another language. While it wouldn’t be my favorite way of doing it (alternating language between readings would be my preference) I see nothing in the GIRM that forbids it. I just sit here in awe thinking how long the Easter Vigil would last if the readings were each done twice.

However, after getting the same ruling from two different competent authorities who said that the same reading can’t be read twice, except with the rare instances during Papal Masses where the Gospel is chanted both in Latin and in Greek, my pastor nipped that practice in the bud. Furthermore, hving seen several Papal Masses broadcast on TV, you don’t hear them proclaim the same reading in two different languages, unless it’s the aforementioned Gospel reading. A lot of the time, the Papal Masses can be a regular Tower of Babel because there are so many different languages. The only time you hear different languages is during the General Intercessions. Howeer, they aren’t all praying the same intention. It’s one intention per language.

 

[Digitonomy]

However, after getting the same ruling from two different competent authorities who said that the same reading can’t be read twice, except with the rare instances during Papal Masses where the Gospel is chanted both in Latin and in Greek, my pastor nipped that practice in the bud. Furthermore, hving seen several Papal Masses broadcast on TV, you don’t hear them proclaim the same reading in two different languages, unless it’s the aforementioned Gospel reading.

The fact the Gospel is sometimes repeated at papal masses would suggest that Phemie’s interpretation is correct. I suppose if one wanted to hew overly close to the text of the GIRM, he might say that a reading may only be repeated in another language if the same person is doing so. However, it’s hard to believe that’s the intent of that paragraph.

 

[benedictgal]

The fact the Gospel is sometimes repeated at papal masses would suggest that Phemie’s interpretation is correct. I suppose if one wanted to hew overly close to the text of the GIRM, he might say that a reading may only be repeated in another language if the same person is doing so. However, it’s hard to believe that’s the intent of that paragraph.

But, these are reserved only for Papal Masses, that is a Petrine privilege. That doesn’t apply to our average Sunday Mass or Holy Week liturgies. Furthermore, the double reading of the Gospel only occurs during very high Masses, such as the Pope’s installation Mass, the Masses he celebrated at Bari and Istanbul (because of the Eastern influence) and on Easter. Remember, he heads both the Latin and Eastern Rite Churches.

However, at no other time are the readings read twice in two different languages, not the first nor the second. I haven’t seen that happen at the Papal Masses.

 

[Digitonomy]

But, these are reserved only for Papal Masses, that is a Petrine privilege. That doesn’t apply to our average Sunday Mass or Holy Week liturgies. Furthermore, the double reading of the Gospel only occurs during very high Masses, such as the Pope’s installation Mass, the Masses he celebrated at Bari and Istanbul (because of the Eastern influence) and on Easter. Remember, he heads both the Latin and Eastern Rite Churches.

It’s a Petrine privilege to deviate from the GIRM just about wherever the pope feels like it. However, it is rare that they do so, unless necessity dictates (e.g. at Yankee Stadium). Certainly with the installation mass, and the masses celebrated in Eastern areas, there was good reason to include the Greek version, (or even to celebrate an Eastern liturgy, although that wasn’t the case here). Yet they apparently failed to read the first and second readings in Greek. This suggests that whatever the rules may be, which by your account they discarded on these occasions, the liturgist also has a preference to not make the liturgy overly long by repeating everything in two languages.

I would look at it from Phemie’s point of view, that the reason the pope rarely celebrates a mass where things are repeated in a second language is entirely because of the preference of the liturgist that we see to be present, and that the GIRM doesn’t actually prohibit it. In most places people have the good sense to share this preference.

 

[SacredHeartFan]

Hello everyone,

This is my first post I did search for this topic but did not find the answer… hopefully I didn’t overlook it.

I attend a Korean parish where one of our masses has all the readings (1st, 2nd, and Gospel) in both English and Korean every Sunday. This has caused some problems especially when readings are lengthy.

We have 5 masses on Sunday - 3 in Korean, 1 all in English and this one which is all in English except for the bilingual readings.

I have read that if a mass is bilingual, 1st reading can be in one language and 2nd reading in another but I haven’t heard any commentary or rule in GIRM about all readings being in two languages.

I personally would like all the readings to be in English but don’t know what the official rule is.

Can anyone answer this for me? Thank you!

Well here in Gonzales we have the world wide Jambalya Festival. People travel from all over the place. We had one cook from Japan last time. At our parish to celebrate this the Gospel is the only reading in English. The others are in different languages. I don’t know the offical rule on the matter.

 

[benedictgal]

I would look at it from Phemie’s point of view, that the reason the pope rarely celebrates a mass where things are repeated in a second language is entirely because of the preference of the liturgist that we see to be present, and that the GIRM doesn’t actually prohibit it. In most places people have the good sense to share this preference.

But, the GIRM doesn’t allow this. The only exception is for the reading of the Passion. Notice this about what the GIRM says:

1. If there are several persons present who are able to exercise the same ministry, nothing forbids their distributing among themselves and performing different parts of the same ministry or duty. For example, one deacon may be assigned to take the sung parts, another to serve at the altar; if there are several readings, it is well to distribute them among a number of lectors. The same applies for the other ministries. But it is not at all appropriate that several persons divide a single element of the celebration among themselves, e.g., that the same reading be proclaimed by two lectors, one after the other], except as far as the Passion of the Lord is concerned.

Notice that this prohibition is not limited to the Gospels. It doesn’t even refer to the proclamation of the Gospel by name. In fact, the only reference to the exception comes for the proclamation of the Gospel. Furthermore, a deacon is not merely a lector.

Re-read what I underlined. That should explain why this is not allowed.

 

[Digitonomy]

Notice that this prohibition is not limited to the Gospels. It doesn’t even refer to the proclamation of the Gospel by name. In fact, the only reference to the exception comes for the proclamation of the Gospel.

I would agree that the only allowance mentioned is for the Passion narrative, a single Sunday of the year. However, there doesn’t seem to be an allowance or prohibition on repeating the Passion narrative - that doesn’t seem to be the focus of this rule at all.

benedictgal:

Furthermore, a deacon is not merely a lector.

That doesn’t appear to be relevant. The way I read it, two deacons or priests or a lector and a priest or whatever combination of two or more people should not divide a single element of the celebration among themselves.

There is no prohibition mentioned, however, of a single person repeating a reading or the Gospel in another language.

 

[benedictgal]

I would agree that the only allowance mentioned is for the Passion narrative, a single Sunday of the year. However, there doesn’t seem to be an allowance or prohibition on repeating the Passion narrative - that doesn’t seem to be the focus of this rule at all.That doesn’t appear to be relevant. The way I read it, two deacons or priests or a lector and a priest or whatever combination of two or more people should not divide a single element of the celebration among themselves.

There is no prohibition mentioned, however, of a single person repeating a reading or the Gospel in another language.

What part of this section do you not understand:

But it is not at all appropriate that several persons divide a single element of the celebration among themselves, e.g., that the same reading be proclaimed by two lectors, one after the other, except as far as the Passion of the Lord is concerned.

This is excatly what the OP is describing: the same reading is problaimed by two lectors, one after the other. You shouldn’t be doing that. Please re-read what the OP described and then the subesquent clarification. This is not at all appropriate, especially under the section I quoted in the GIRM.

 

[SacredHeartFan]

I see that alot of us are confused so let me give an example:

Lector Sue reads the first reading in Chineese.
Cantor Ryan sings the psalm in spanish.
Lector Bob read the second reading in french
Cantor Ryan sings the Alleluia in Latin
Fr. Eric reads the Gospel in english.

Make sense??
Just trying to clear up confusion. This is how it is normally done at my church for the Jambalya festival.

 

[benedictgal]

I see that alot of us are confused so let me give an example:

Lector Sue reads the first reading in Chineese.
Cantor Ryan sings the psalm in spanish.
Lector Bob read the second reading in french
Cantor Ryan sings the Alleluia in Latin
Fr. Eric reads the Gospel in english.

Make sense??
Just trying to clear up confusion. This is how it is normally done at my church for the Jambalya festival.

That one is fine because that is pretty much what happens at the Papal Mass. However, you aren’t following along the situation as described the OP.

First Reading: Jim (English)
Same First Reading: Julio (Spanish)

Psalm is in one language

Second Reading: Margie (Spanish)
Same Second Reading: Charlotte (English)

Gospel Acclamation is in one language

Gospel is in one language (English, Spanish or Latin)

This is the situation that is problematic and not at all appropriate under the GIRM.

 

[Phemie]

But, the GIRM doesn’t allow this. The only exception is for the reading of the Passion. Notice this about what the GIRM says:

Notice that this prohibition is not limited to the Gospels. It doesn’t even refer to the proclamation of the Gospel by name. In fact, the only reference to the exception comes for the proclamation of the Gospel. Furthermore, a deacon is not merely a lector.

Re-read what I underlined. That should explain why this is not allowed.

But your interpretation of the prohibition doesn’t compute once you include the part about “in the manner of the Passion”. The Passion is not read twice, it’s split among several people. The prohibition is not about the reading being repeated, it’s about the 1 reading being split between people as you would have if you had a reader do 1/2 in English and another reader do 1/2 in Korean. How is having it reread in Korean any different from having it read in English and translated into ASL for those who can’t hear?

 

[SacredHeartFan]

Can anyone explain to me why the Mass of the imposition of the pallium the reading was first in latin and then the same reading was repeated in greek. thanks!

 

[benedictgal]

Can anyone explain to me why the Mass of the imposition of the pallium the reading was first in latin and then the same reading was repeated in greek. thanks!

There was a metropolitan from one of the Eastern Churches who received his Pallium. If you read my earlier posts, you will find that certain allowances are made in Papal Masses.

Now, Phemie, the only exception in the GIRM relates to the Passion because that particular reading is divided up into parts. The faithful have a part, the narrator has a part and the speaker (other than Christ) has a part. The part of Christ, however, is reserved only for the priest. But, that is the exception. It is still not allowable to have the same reading read twice in two different languages by two different lectors. Please re-read the section that I highlighted, colored and underlined.

 

[Digitonomy]

What part of this section do you not understand:

I think I understand it fairly well, but perhaps I can post it yet again, with the special coloring and all.

But it is not at all appropriate that several persons divide a single element of the celebration among themselves, e.g., that the same reading be proclaimed by two lectors, one after the other, except as far as the Passion of the Lord is concerned.

Is it your contention that the assembled lectors could repeat the Passion narrative once or twice in another language? If not, why not?

 

[benedictgal]

I think I understand it fairly well, but perhaps I can post it yet again, with the special coloring and all. Is it your contention that the assembled lectors could repeat the Passion narrative once or twice in another language? If not, why not?

The reference here speaks of dividing the Passion into parts, where more than one person reads the account. Perhaps you missed the section preceding it:

But it is not at all appropriate that several persons divide a single element of the celebration among themselves, e.g., that the same reading be proclaimed by two lectors, one after the other

“One right after the other” is the key phrase here. I shouldn’t proclaim the first reading in English and then have the next lector get up and start reading the same thing all over again in Spanish. That is not at all appropriate nor should it be done.

 

[ASimpleSinner]

Can anyone explain to me why the Mass of the imposition of the pallium the reading was first in latin and then the same reading was repeated in greek. thanks!

Because the Greek Orthodox Patriarch of Constantinople himself was there, and the reading in Greek was chanted by a Greek Orthodox deacon. Although the word “concelebrate” is one that might not be the best choice, essentially they prayed the Liturgy of the Word together.

 

[jpark]

Actually, I checked with the diocesan director of worship when I relayed to him what was happening in our parish. He said that the section from the GIRM was not restricted to the Gospel, but to all of the readings.

As a secondary confirmation, I also contacted the USCCB Divine Worship office and got the same response. Therefore, when I gave this to my pastor, we went back to normal (first reading in English and second reading in Spanish). He told me that he thought that what we did last year was okay since it was done at a Mass celebrated by the Los Angeles Metropolitan. But, I told him that this wasn’t the case.

I think there is some confusion about whether the GIRM 109 section is referring to breaking up the reading between two lectors or having repeated readings by two different lectors.

What Benedictgal stated above is enough clarification for me. Of course, I can double check myself with USCCB office of Divine Worship but I trust this source and what I interpreted from the GIRM ruling was that two different lectors can neither break up one reading or repeat the same reading (whether or not it’s in a different language).

If the issue boils down to “what about papal masses” then I know that those would be special occasions and whatever exception there is for papal masses would not apply to the normal Sunday mass.

As an update, our catechists discussed this on Sunday and decided to conform to the authority of GIRM.

 

[Digitonomy]

“One right after the other” is the key phrase here. I shouldn’t proclaim the first reading in English and then have the next lector get up and start reading the same thing all over again in Spanish. That is not at all appropriate nor should it be done.

“Except as far as the Passion of the Lord is concerned.” You appear to have dodged my question about the Passion narrative.

It seems to me that either the rule is talking about splitting readings into multiple speaking parts, which is prohibited except for the Passion… or they are talking about any and every occasion where more than one person reads a part… which is then prohibited except for the Passion. So the Passion can be read first in English, then in Spanish, then in Latin, and so on with a huge phalanx of lectors and priests of all nationalities until such time as the congregation collapses of exhaustion (how do you say “Crucify him!” in Tagalog?).

If we follow this more slavishly literal interpretation of the text, the prohibition applies only to lectors or others who read “one after the other.” There is nothing prohibiting simultaneous reading, as Phemie mentioned with ASL, or even with different spoken languages. Perhaps in larger churches where the altar is surrounded by congregants on three or four sides, they could have four lecterns… Italian-speakers could sit in front of the altar, French and German-speakers could sit in the north and south transepts, and the leftovers could listen to Latin from behind the altar.

 

[benedictgal]

“Except as far as the Passion of the Lord is concerned.” You appear to have dodged my question about the Passion narrative.

It seems to me that either the rule is talking about splitting readings into multiple speaking parts, which is prohibited except for the Passion… or they are talking about any and every occasion where more than one person reads a part… which is then prohibited except for the Passion. So the Passion can be read first in English, then in Spanish, then in Latin, and so on with a huge phalanx of lectors and priests of all nationalities until such time as the congregation collapses of exhaustion (how do you say “Crucify him!” in Tagalog?).

If we follow this more slavishly literal interpretation of the text, the prohibition applies only to lectors or others who read “one after the other.” There is nothing prohibiting simultaneous reading, as Phemie mentioned with ASL, or even with different spoken languages. Perhaps in larger churches where the altar is surrounded by congregants on three or four sides, they could have four lecterns… Italian-speakers could sit in front of the altar, French and German-speakers could sit in the north and south transepts, and the leftovers could listen to Latin from behind the altar.

Now, the ASL issue doesn’t necessarily kick in because, first of all, that is a horse of an entirely different color. We are talking about verbal communication. The GIRM assumes that the readings are going to be proclaimed verbally.

Furthermore, the scenario that you are describing doesn’t necessarily sound feasible because these different language groups show up at the Papal Masses all of the time.

Finally, when there are that many languages, the Church defaults to Latin, as in the case of the Papal Mass for Palm Sunday and the service for Good Friday. The Passion Narrative is chanted by three deacons in Latin, with the Sistene Chapel choir taking the part of the crowd. The faithful follow along in the little books provided. I know; I have such books from quite a few of the Papal Masses.

 

[LilyM]

Watching the Opening Mass of World Youth Day as we speak - readings are being done in various languages and repeated in English. Cardinal Pell, who’s overseeing the proceedings, isn’t known for being lax about rubrics :nope:

Make of that what you will.