Liturgy of the word in two languages

[jpark]

I don’t know if such exceptions exist but I still think it makes more sense to do such things at these kind of global events as opposed to normal weekly Sunday mass.

 

[benedictgal]

I stayed up late (or earliy) due to an infernal migraine headache and I got to see some of the WYD opening Mass.

Some of it was good, especially Cardinal Pell’s homily. However, the issue of the double-language reading came up for the first reading where one person proclaimed it in Spanish and then it was proclaimed once again in English. Now, the GIRM reference does not the problems with this. Oddly enough, the second reading was proclaimed in French (no other language). Ditto for the Gospel, which was proclaimed in Italian.

The Australian broadcast team was rather annoying. Unlike Vatican Radio, whose team translates the readings, there was no translation of neither the Epistle nor the Gospel. I know enough Italian to get around so I understood the Gospel, but, I don’t have any knowledge of French.

The procession for the Book of the Gospels was bizarre. Rather than carry the Book of the Gospels at the entrance procession, a young man dressed in a strange white and blue tunic brought the Book of the Gospels up the aisle while what (I believe) the aborigines or some strange Oceanic tribe, did some sort of bizarre dance with spears. It was very strange.

It reminded me of a comment that Cardinal Arinze had made about strange things happening at large-scale Masses.

The music was so-so, but a little better than the Nationals Stadium Mass. The altar set-up was very Benedictine, complete with the seven candles. I can’t speak to how Holy Communion was distributed because I fell asleep before the Eucharistic Prayer.

 

[LilyM]

I stayed up late (or earliy) due to an infernal migraine headache and I got to see some of the WYD opening Mass.

Some of it was good, especially Cardinal Pell’s homily. However, the issue of the double-language reading came up for the first reading where one person proclaimed it in Spanish and then it was proclaimed once again in English. Now, the GIRM reference does not the problems with this. Oddly enough, the second reading was proclaimed in French (no other language). Ditto for the Gospel, which was proclaimed in Italian.

The Australian broadcast team was rather annoying. Unlike Vatican Radio, whose team translates the readings, there was no translation of neither the Epistle nor the Gospel. I know enough Italian to get around so I understood the Gospel, but, I don’t have any knowledge of French.

The procession for the Book of the Gospels was bizarre. Rather than carry the Book of the Gospels at the entrance procession, a young man dressed in a strange white and blue tunic brought the Book of the Gospels up the aisle while what (I believe) the aborigines or some strange Oceanic tribe, did some sort of bizarre dance with spears. It was very strange.

It reminded me of a comment that Cardinal Arinze had made about strange things happening at large-scale Masses.

The music was so-so, but a little better than the Nationals Stadium Mass. The altar set-up was very Benedictine, complete with the seven candles. I can’t speak to how Holy Communion was distributed because I fell asleep before the Eucharistic Prayer.

That ‘bizarre dance with spears’ is what those particular peoples ALWAYS do to greet the Gospels at Masses in that part of the world. It’s called inculturation, people. Dance is well and truly an integral enough part of every event in their culture that it’s a legitimate thing for them to do IMHO.

 

[Michael_Welter]

Keep in mind that the GIRM was issued by the USCCB, so it doesn;t apply outside the US.

 

[benedictgal]

Keep in mind that the GIRM was issued by the USCCB, so it doesn;t apply outside the US.

Actually, the GIRM is not issued by the USCCB; it is originally written in Latin and is set forth by the Holy See. Furthermore, while there are adaptations for the various Episcopal Sees that are granted by the Holy See, the GIRM, in essence, remains universal.

Furthermore, this same section appears in the Spanish version of the GIRM:

1. Si están presentes varios que puedan ejercer un mismo ministerio, nada impide el que se distribuyan entre sí las diversas partes del mismo ministerio u oficio. Por ejemplo, un diácono puede encargarse de las partes cantadas y otro del ministerio del altar; si hay varias lecturas, conviene distribuirlas entre diversos lectores; y así en lo demás. Pero de ninguna manera conviene que varios se dividan entre ellos un único elemento de la celebración: por ejemplo, que una misma lectura sea leída entre dos, uno después del otro, a no ser que se trate de la Pasión del Señor.

“Pero ninguna manera” means “not by any means”. It stresses the same element: that the same reading shouldn’t be read twice, one translation after the other, by two different people. The only exception for dividing the reading is for the Passion.

In Italian, the same wording conveys the same message:

1. Se sono presenti più persone che possono esercitare lo stesso ministero, nulla impedisce che si distribuiscano tra loro le varie parti di uno stesso ministero o ufficio e ciascuno svolga la sua. Per esempio, un diacono può essere incaricato delle parti in canto e un altro del servizio all’altare; se vi sono più letture, converrà distribuirle tra più lettori, e così via. Non è affatto opportuno che più persone si dividano fra loro un unico elemento della celebrazione: per es. che la medesima lettura sia proclamata da due lettori, uno dopo l’altro, tranne che si tratti della Passione del Signore.

In Italian, “uno dopo l’altro” means one right after the other. Again, the same reference to the Passion appears.

Let’s see what the Latin GIRM says:

1. Si plures adsunt qui idem ministerium exercere possunt, nihil vetat, quominus diversas partes eiusdem ministerii vel officii inter se distribuant et peragant. Ex. gr., alius diaconus adhiberi potest pro partibus in cantu proferendis, et alius pro ministerio altaris; si plures lectiones habentur, inter plures lectores eas distribuere iuvat, et sic de ceteris. Minime vero congruit ut plures unicum elementum celebrationis inter se dividant: ex. gr. eadem lectio a duobus, unus post alium, lecta, nisi agatur de Passione Domini.

The same admonition appears here, as well. Therefore to say that the GIRM was issued by the USCCB is an erroneous statement. There is a version approved for use in the United States, with adaptations specific to the USCCB, but, these carry the recognitio from the Holy See.

 

[Phemie]

Keep in mind that the GIRM was issued by the USCCB, so it doesn;t apply outside the US.

No, the GIRM with adaptations for the US was issued by the USCCB. The part we’re talking about is not part of the adaptations for the US.

 

[benedictgal]

That ‘bizarre dance with spears’ is what those particular peoples ALWAYS do to greet the Gospels at Masses in that part of the world. It’s called inculturation, people. Dance is well and truly an integral enough part of every event in their culture that it’s a legitimate thing for them to do IMHO.

True; however, I’ll let Cardinal Arinze’s words on the subject speak for themselves:

There has never been a document from our Congregation for Divine Worship and Discipline of the Sacraments saying that dance is approved in the Mass.

The question of dance is difficult and delicate. However, it is good to know that the tradition of the Latin Church has not known the dance. It is something that people are introducing in the last ten years – or twenty years. It was not always so. Now it is spreading like wildfire, one can say, in all the continents – some more than others. In my own continent, Africa, it is spreading. In Asia, it is spreading.

Now, some priests and lay people think that Mass is never complete without dance. The difficulty is this: we come to Mass primarily to adore God – what we call the vertical dimension. We do not come to Mass to entertain one another. That’s not the purpose of Mass. The parish hall is for that.

…Somebody can say, “but the pope visited this county and the people danced”. A moment: Did the pope arrange it? Poor Holy Father – he comes, the people arranged. He does not know what they arranged. And somebody introduces something funny – is the pope responsible for that? Does that mean it is now approved? Did they put in on the table of the Congregation for Divine Worship? We would throw it out! If people want to dance, they know where to go.

I understand the notion of inculturation; however, this Mass wasn’t about the aborigines or the native peoples respresented in that dance. Inculturation works if you are in a native, missionary territory and a majority of the faithful there come from that culture. However, this is not the case with World Youth Day.

Furthermore, there doesn’t seem to be a precedent for what was done, with respect to the readings, in a Papal Mass. Inasmuch as Cardinal Pell was the celebrant, and, by the way, preached an incredible homily, adding novelties to the Mass isn’t a good precedent at all. People will think that this kind of stuff would then be allowed in their own parishes. This kind of stuff breeds confusion.

 

[LilyM]

True; however, I’ll let Cardinal Arinze’s words on the subject speak for themselves:

I understand the notion of inculturation; however, this Mass wasn’t about the aborigines or the native peoples respresented in that dance. Inculturation works if you are in a native, missionary territory and a majority of the faithful there come from that culture. However, this is not the case with World Youth Day.

Furthermore, there doesn’t seem to be a precedent for what was done, with respect to the readings, in a Papal Mass. Inasmuch as Cardinal Pell was the celebrant, and, by the way, preached an incredible homily, adding novelties to the Mass isn’t a good precedent at all. People will think that this kind of stuff would then be allowed in their own parishes. This kind of stuff breeds confusion.

Well, a majority of the faithful WERE Australian, and Aboriginal culture IS, for those Australians who aren’t snobbishly Eurocentric (which means for a majority of us) part of OUR culture - the collective culture of all Australians.

Those dancers were NOT representing just the indigenous peoples - they were representing the whole nation. That deepest part of every Australian that differentiates us from the British whose language and government structure we follow, and the Yanks whose cultural detritus we ingest.

I certainly felt very proudly represented by those talented dancers, and I doubt I was alone in this sentiment. Who says I have to be genetically Aboriginal for the Aboriginal culture, at least in part, to be my culture also?

 

[benedictgal]

Well, a majority of the faithful WERE Australian, and Aboriginal culture IS, for those Australians who aren’t snobbishly Eurocentric (which means for a majority of us) part of OUR culture - the collective culture of all Australians.

Those dancers were NOT representing just the indigenous peoples - they were representing the whole nation. That deepest part of every Australian that differentiates us from the British whose language and government structure we follow, and the Yanks whose cultural detritus we ingest.

I certainly felt very proudly represented by those talented dancers, and I doubt I was alone in this sentiment. Who says I have to be genetically Aboriginal for the Aboriginal culture, at least in part, to be my culture also?

But, the majority of the faithful at the Opening WYD Mass weren’t aboriginal nor native Australian. They were all pilgrims from around the world. I didn’t say anything bad about the dancers themselvves, only that the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass wasn’t the appropriate venue for what they did. Furthermore, as Cardinal Arinze noted, it is unfortunate that large-scale Masses become venues for experimentation and “show”. Sadly, WYD is one such event where, at times, everything, including the kitchen sink, is thrown in for good measure.

Lily, if the native peoples do this in a Mass that is geared towards them, that is a different story. That is genuine inculturation. What happend at WYD is not the case at all. It’s not about Australia, its about the entire Church. If they wanted this dance, then, have it at a prayer vigil or some other service, but, not at the Mass.

Much the same as with teh innovation of the double readings, such innovations only serve to cloud and confuse people.

 

[Mea_Culpa]

My pastor picked up a very bad idea when he was at the Religious Education Congress in Los Angeles.

You were lucky. He could have brought back liturgical dancing.