Liturgy & Presence

[Flatty10]

Sacrosanctum Concilium outlines the 4 modes of Christs presence.

them being…

In the Assembled People
In the Word
In the Priest
In the Eucharistic Species

Should any of these presences be treated as more important than the other???

i realise the fullness of the Eucharist, but had a disagreement with my Lecturer who said you can’t emphasize one over the others. Is this correct?

Thanks

 

[GloriousOrder]

The Assembly are the Body of Christ, it seems, and are to be loved and revered as only beings made in God’s image can be. The Word is the true Good News that the incarnate Perfect One gave unto us by His teachings, and we must praise the Lord Jesus Christ for it. The priest, at his best, is a humble man who is the alter Christus - the other Christ, standing in our physical space in lieu of The One who has gone up. These are all extremely important, but I think meeting The Assembly is like meeting the listeners of an audio book or radio program (The Word) which is narrated by the priest. On the other hand, the Eucharist, the most blessed of all Sacraments, is the very presence of God in our corporal realm!

The priest is a substitute for Jesus, the Assembly are His friends, and the Word is His diary, but the EUCHARIST is He Himself who owns all time, space, and being. Why meet a man’s best friends when you can meet the man standing before you? The Eucharist is the summit not only of the Church, but of all creation! It is the glory of God sitting there before us, as on an ivory throne lined with gold and surrounded by light.

Do you know the anecdote about the nuclear physicist studying to become a priest? He once told a friend in seminary what it’s like to behold the Eucharist, by way of analogy. When you look at a controlled nuclear experiment using Heavy Water, you see three things. For one, there is the swirling ball of sheer contained energy in the middle: the reaction itself, the breaking and smashing of particles and the like. This reaction is happening within the queer, sapphire-coloured liquid called Heavy Water, and the water is contained in an ultra-strong, ultra-thin Plexiglas-like transparent chamber. If this thin glass were to break and the reaction unleashed, any observer would be dead in seconds. Think of this whenever you approach the Eucharistic Host, wherein the power of the Eternal and Infinite Creator of everything has had the humility to put himself in mere bread, the lowliest of foods. In this context, the Assembly are a host of scientists, the Priest the team’s co-ordinator or chief of experiments, and the Word is the instruction manual; however, the Eucharist is Power itself.

If God were to break out of the Eucharist before your very eyes in the tabernacle, the entire world would be washed away according to His Will!

 

[Flatty10]

haha i agree with you entirely, but everytime i try and explain this to my Lecturer she says im focusing too much on the Eucharist and not as much on the other types of presences.

Is there any Church documents or something that can really clear up this issue, every time i try and talk about the power of the Eucharist, she keeps telling me its not the actual Eucharist, but the Eucharistic celebration. Which i agree it is, an a way. It just seems very limiting on the actual body of Christ.

She also tells me to be very careful in adoration, as this type of worship can almost be idolatrous if your focusing too much on the Blessed Sacrament…

 

[GloriousOrder]

She also tells me to be very careful in adoration, as this type of worship can almost be idolatrous if your focusing too much on the Blessed Sacrament…

I don’t think there’s much more to say on this matter after learning that. She sounds like the sort of person who doesn’t think Protestants are all that misguided. Of course, I cannot vouch to know her soul, but her words speak very loudly in this case. Can you not explain to her that it is impossible to be idolatrous when worshiping God made manifest on Earth? He’s right there inside the unleavened bread, as He told us.

You ask for Church documents, eh? Why not cite the document compiled by the Church: The Bible! I believe John 6:53 has something to say about this, as well as Luke 22:19 and Mark 14:22 … what more do you want? Hehe. Unfortunately, I cannot cite any post-Biblical documents yet, still being a convert in the process. I do wish you good luck, for it is impossible to emphasise the Eucharist too much.

 

[Joannm]

You need only to look in the document that your lecturer herself cites. Yes, the document cites the four modes of Christ’s presence, but it also states Christ is present “especially under the Eucharistic elements.” If one reads further on it explains the modes of presence. Also read chapter II, #47. Also refer to the Apostolic Exhortation Sacrementum Caritatis by Pope Benedict XVI.

 

[Flatty10]

thanks for that link its perfect!

is it even possible to over do it with the Blessed Sacrament?

 

[Cristiano]

…She also tells me to be very careful in adoration, as this type of worship can almost be idolatrous if your focusing too much on the Blessed Sacrament…

I don’t think there’s much more to say on this matter after learning that. She sounds like the sort of person who doesn’t think Protestants are all that misguided. Of course, I cannot vouch to know her soul, but her words speak very loudly in this case. Can you not explain to her that it is impossible to be idolatrous when worshiping God made manifest on Earth? He’s right there inside the unleavened bread, as He told us…

I think hat the lady might have a valid point, even if it might not be properly presented. Idolatry is the belief in a God that it is not the True One. If adoration of the Blessed Sacrament turns into loss of the Trinitarian belief or of the loss of the full understanding of the Logos, then it is possible to transform that ritual into idolatry.

 

[Flatty10]

she wasn’t talking about a loss in the trinitarian belief, that would be idolatrous. as it involves some fake God.

Though she was saying that focusing on the Blessed Sacrament, that being the trinity in adoration too much can be idolatrous

 

[reggieM]

thanks for that link its perfect!

is it even possible to over do it with the Blessed Sacrament?

Anything like that is possible. But likely? Even a reasonable thing to worry about?

It’s the rare, rare exception - worth a brief mention, but certainly not a point on which to build a case for lessening priority of the Eucharistic presence.

Teaching from Pope John Paul II (and prior pontiffs) affirm this.

Catechism, quoting Vatican II documents:

1324 The Eucharist is “the source and summit of the Christian life.”

Summit = highest point.

So, I suggest: preserve the treasure of this knowledge that you have now, but don’t try to convince your Lecturer. Let it pass. She is conditioned (damaged?) by a warped view of the Faith which is understandable, but still wrong. It’s best to just be patient and let it go, in my opinion. She’s not going to understand or accept, sadly.

 

[corsair]

I’m sort of confused by the “authority” of your lector lady. She sounds like she has usurped the priest. Perhaps a trip to a Traditional priest would be in order for further clarification. Might even try switching to a traditional parish.

 

[MarkThompson]

I’m sort of confused by the “authority” of your lector lady. She sounds like she has usurped the priest. Perhaps a trip to a Traditional priest would be in order for further clarification. Might even try switching to a traditional parish.

“Lecturer” ≠ “Lector.” No need to jump the gun and start recommending that people leave their parishes.