Liturgy: The Church Ain't Getting the Job Done

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Pariah_Pirana

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When it comes to bringing an end to liturgical abuse, the Catholic Church simply is not getting the job done. Yeah, I’ve heard all the excuses – the structure of the Church, the complexities of canon law, etc. etc., But all summed-up, they are nothing more than one huge excuse for failure – an excuse that more and more people are tired of hearing about.

An excuse whose time has come…

If the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass IS INDEED the source and summit of our faith here on Earth (and I certainly believe it is) then the Church needs to take concrete action to bring liturgical abuse to an end.

How? I’m not really sure, but I’ll take a stab at it. Let’s look at the Church in the USA. First, it might be a good idea to name a primate for the USA/Canada over both the Latin and Eastern Churches. Make it a local – someone like Cardinal George of Chicago might do well. Create a ministry under the primate called LITURGICAL EDUCATION & QUALITY ASSURANCE. How about making Father John Corapi an auxillary bishop and placing him in charge of that ministry? Give him a team of extremely well prepared clerics and especially laypersons for this critical ministry.

This ministry would then fan-out across the US and Canada and ensure all those responsible for the Mass were well trained and up to date. This ministry would then “audit” Masses for compliance to the GIRM/RS, etc. If a bishop failed to accept responsibility and fix problems, send him to a third world country as a missionary. Do that a few times and the Church WILL begin to right itself in the USA.

Draconian? Nope. Hugely different than today? Yep. I cannot watch a USCCB meeting on EWTN without wondering about the leadership abilities of about 85% of the bishops present. I wonder even more about the antiquated organization structure of the Church – at least here in the USA.
 
Pariah Pirana:
First, it might be a good idea to name a primate for the USA/Canada over both the Latin and Eastern Churches.
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The Primate of Canada is the bishop of the oldest diocese in Canada, the Archdiocese of Québec. The current Primate is Marc Cardinal Ouellet.

Arguably, the U.S. doesn’t have a true primate; however, the archbishop of Baltimore (the oldest diocese in the U.S.) is often considered the Primate of the U.S. William Cardinal Keeler is the current occupant of the See of Baltimore.

I suspect you are thinking of something along the lines of a Papal Legate.
 
As a practical measure, I am not sure how an audit of quality control could be effectively carried out. If priests aren’t doing things exactly by the book in some areas you really can’t force them to do it right. You can ask and plead and instruct. But you can’t make them change. I suppose that one could argue that they could be sent on missionary trips to some thrid world country. I don’t think you could forcibly send them off like that, either, though. And, even if you could, how many priests would we be left with? Further, why should the third world countries have to put up with them if they went off riding into the sunset?
 
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chicago:
As a practical measure, I am not sure how an audit of quality control could be effectively carried out. If priests aren’t doing things exactly by the book in some areas you really can’t force them to do it right. You can ask and plead and instruct. But you can’t make them change. I suppose that one could argue that they could be sent on missionary trips to some thrid world country. I don’t think you could forcibly send them off like that, either, though. And, even if you could, how many priests would we be left with? Further, why should the third world countries have to put up with them if they went off riding into the sunset?
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False.

These men take a vow of obedience. If they fail to follow their bishops, that’s a serious problem.
 
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Benedictus:
The Primate of Canada is the bishop of the oldest diocese in Canada, the Archdiocese of Québec. The current Primate is Marc Cardinal Ouellet.

Arguably, the U.S. doesn’t have a true primate; however, the archbishop of Baltimore (the oldest diocese in the U.S.) is often considered the Primate of the U.S. William Cardinal Keeler is the current occupant of the See of Baltimore.

I suspect you are thinking of something along the lines of a Papal Legate.
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The USA has no primate…

And no, I was talking about a primate…
 
Pariah Pirana:
First, it might be a good idea to name a primate for the USA/Canada over both the Latin and Eastern Churches.
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Please explain how this would work?

Why should a Latin Bishop sit over an Eastern Bishop?

The Eastern Catholic Churches already have someone above them.

The Byzantine (Ruthenian) Catholic Church has the Metropolitan Archbishop of Pittsburgh. The Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church has the Major Archbishop of Lviv. The Melkite Greek Catholic Church has the Melkite Patriarch of Antioch. The Marionites have their Patriarch. The Chaldean Catholics have their Patriarch.

Each Eastern Church has its own hierarchy and synod of bishops.

Why add another layer with a Latin Bishop at the top?
 
you don’t need an audit, every Catholic on this board could probably give you a list of the worst offending priests and parishes in their diocese today. what you do need is a solution. what is your plan? burning at the stake, bombing Churches, dissolving parishes, banishment, excommunication. If sacrilege has been committed the offenders are already excommunicated, how are you going to enforce this? for that matter, what do you do with priests who offend in other ways such as openly gay activity, child abuse, embezzlement etc. You report them to civil authority when a law is broken. There is a canon law remedy, but even then the bishop requires evidence to act. even if a man is laicized and can no longer perform priestly functions, that seems to stop very few from complying.
 
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puzzleannie:
you don’t need an audit, every Catholic on this board could probably give you a list of the worst offending priests and parishes in their diocese today. .
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It’s true–every Catholic on this board could give you a list of offending priests and parishes. I think that what could be really effective is to have “Mystery Lay People” in the pews watching for liturgical abuses. It would be like a “Mystery Shopper” at a grocery store. A lot of the people on these message boards for example already watch for liturgical abuses very well. All we need is to have the diocese assign these people to go to Mass at a particular parish and if they see any signs of liturgical abuse—they report it back to the bishop. The bishop can then develop a formula for dealing with these priests. Like, maybe if a priest does some kind of liturgical abuse a second time, the Bishop can go to that parish and put a big sign above the door saying something like “This Mass may not be valid.” That would warn people. Then the priest would HAVE to straighten up and fly right lest the parishioners all start going somewhere else.
 
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puzzleannie:
you don’t need an audit, every Catholic on this board could probably give you a list of the worst offending priests and parishes in their diocese today. what you do need is a solution. what is your plan? burning at the stake, bombing Churches, dissolving parishes, banishment, excommunication. If sacrilege has been committed the offenders are already excommunicated, how are you going to enforce this? for that matter, what do you do with priests who offend in other ways such as openly gay activity, child abuse, embezzlement etc. You report them to civil authority when a law is broken. There is a canon law remedy, but even then the bishop requires evidence to act. even if a man is laicized and can no longer perform priestly functions, that seems to stop very few from complying.
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The data would have to come from souces that are beyond reproach. This board wouldn’t be acceptable. It would have to be an extremely formal process.

The men tak vows of obedience to their bishops. Are you suggesting they’ll simply ignore their bishops?
 
Pariah Pirana:
False.

These men take a vow of obedience. If they fail to follow their bishops, that’s a serious problem.
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Send them to driving, I mean Liturgy School as many times as they get a ticket. 😃
 
Pariah Pirana:
False.

These men take a vow of obedience. If they fail to follow their bishops, that’s a serious problem.
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Well, I don’t necessarily disagree (though one probably needs to look at the degree of offense to properly adjudicate how serious the problem is). But that still doesn’t change the fact that you can’t force them to do something.
 
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Corinthians:
Like, maybe if a priest does some kind of liturgical abuse a second time, the Bishop can go to that parish and put a big sign above the door saying something like “This Mass may not be valid.” That would warn people. Then the priest would HAVE to straighten up and fly right lest the parishioners all start going somewhere else.
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Or they might rally around the priest and against the “big bad bishop.”
 
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chicago:
Well, I don’t necessarily disagree (though one probably needs to look at the degree of offense to properly adjudicate how serious the problem is). But that still doesn’t change the fact that you can’t force them to do something.
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You are wrong.

The bishop does “force” a priest to do something simply by telling him to do it. If the priests are real problem cases (disobedience is a whole other topic) then the bishop could most certainly take disciplinary actions.
 
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Corinthians:
It’s true–every Catholic on this board could give you a list of offending priests and parishes. I think that what could be really effective is to have “Mystery Lay People” in the pews watching for liturgical abuses. It would be like a “Mystery Shopper” at a grocery store. A lot of the people on these message boards for example already watch for liturgical abuses very well. All we need is to have the diocese assign these people to go to Mass at a particular parish and if they see any signs of liturgical abuse—they report it back to the bishop. The bishop can then develop a formula for dealing with these priests. Like, maybe if a priest does some kind of liturgical abuse a second time, the Bishop can go to that parish and put a big sign above the door saying something like “This Mass may not be valid.” That would warn people. Then the priest would HAVE to straighten up and fly right lest the parishioners all start going somewhere else.
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Absolutely no way.

The focus would be on training and then providing honest, open feedback to the priests/bishops.

I would guess if each (arch)bishop ENSURED that each of his priests knew how to correctly celebrate the Mass and if each bishop DEMANDED they celebrate the Mass in conformanace with what the Church directs, that there would be a 75% (at least) drop in liturgical abuses very quickly.

I do think that if a national program like this were instituted, the support from parishioners and EWTN would be astounding.

Really a matter of providing proper training, setting goals, providing constructive feedback and holding people to those goals.
 
Well just look at Cathedral after Cathedral that is getting decimated. I wonder why the Vatican doesn’t do more!

Then you look at doritos, pizza, mountain dew… being consecrated… or clowns all over the sanctuary (this i have witnessed myself)… Priests preaching false doctrines… the list goes on and on…

For those of you who say Vatican II was a “good thing”… I have yet to see it. I want to believe with all my heart that it was a “good thing” and I understand that what I see out there right now is just a false implementation of Vatican II… but the fact remains… that whether or not Vatican II MEANT for all this to happen… it certainly did happen as a result of Vatican II. I doubt any of the Fathers of Vatican II would have went forward with the council if they could’ve seen that this would happen beacuse of it…
 
Pariah Pirana:
You are wrong.

The bishop does “force” a priest to do something simply by telling him to do it. If the priests are real problem cases (disobedience is a whole other topic) then the bishop could most certainly take disciplinary actions.
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The bishop can “rule” and “decree” but he can not “forcibly” make someone take action. Disciplinary action is often a long and arduous process, even if it can be taken. We need to recognize that we are dealing with imperfect people in an imperfect world and be able to prudently respond more as an art in the hope of moving things in the right direction.
 
James_2:24:
Well just look at Cathedral after Cathedral that is getting decimated. I wonder why the Vatican doesn’t do more!
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They do. Just look at all they said in criticism of how Milwaukee’s cathedral was renovated. But, again, they really can’t force the bishop to do things as they like. It’s his own responsibility to handle appropriately.
 
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chicago:
The bishop can “rule” and “decree” but he can not “forcibly” make someone take action. Disciplinary action is often a long and arduous process, even if it can be taken. We need to recognize that we are dealing with imperfect people in an imperfect world and be able to prudently respond more as an art in the hope of moving things in the right direction.
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My goodness you sure paint a pessimistic picture. One that I don’t agree with.

If a priest defiantly ignores the instructions of the Church once he has been thuroughly trained and directed by his bishop, he needs to be disciplined and/or removed from ministry.

And if something impedes that, then it too needs to be changed as part of this process.

Liturgical abuse can be slashed, but it takes catechesis and courage…
 
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chicago:
They do. Just look at all they said in criticism of how Milwaukee’s cathedral was renovated. But, again, they really can’t force the bishop to do things as they like. It’s his own responsibility to handle appropriately.
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Had it been his intention, JPII could have stopped that loser Weakland in his tracks…
 
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